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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:13 pm 
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It all comes down to the definition of 'self protection' that swirls in the minds of people with this interest.

Some practice martial arts because 'it is fun' [the biggest crock of shite you will hear] think of the word martial and then the 'real why' people are drawn to it.

These same people will tell you that any concern of 'self protection' is paranoia. Then the very same people will take people's money while assuring them self defense is 'automatic' in what they are teaching.

The same misguided individuals will argue that there is no 'force continuum'_
that a person won't have a chance to 'continue' any force in an assault.

These very same people don't realize that kowledge about force escalation is critical to sharper awareness of what might be about to happen, and how the type and timing of response action will help to keep them safe.

Laird writes
Quote:
If I had not been born on the land or if I had not served I would have still be drawn to training with firearms it's part of the force continuum, a natural progression for a martial artist.. If your not comfortable escalating force then your just the next victim in waiting.The police won't save your bacon you are responsible for you.


Lots to think about.

I think that the mindset of many martial arts students still is that watever they are practicing is the ultimate in self defense/protection...against any threat...and it all happens 'automatically'...

I'd like to hear from someone who embraces this view...maybe it is me who is missing something.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Some practice martial arts because 'it is fun' [the biggest crock of shite you will hear] think of the word martial and then the 'real why' people are drawn to it.


Do you mean that "it is fun" isn't people's real reason, or that it's a bad reason?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
I think that the mindset of many martial arts students still is that watever they are practicing is the ultimate in self defense/protection...against any threat...and it all happens 'automatically'...


I'm certainly not under any such delusion. If someone drew a Glock .45 on me, I wouldn't try to spin-kick it out of their hands. :D

It's more of a question of balancing the probability of staring down the barrel of a handgun vs. the implications and consequences of arming yourself for that kind of threat (assuming it's legally allowed in one's jurisdiction).

The fundamental question that I think we should try to answer is whether the solution to a gun problem is to have more guns?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:50 pm 
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I dont think theres much point of trying to switch someones viewpoint on the internet.

however I would choose to place the responsibility with the individuals rather than the tools they used.

one is just a deflection, and I dont beleive a gun free utopia is a reality , even if it giives one an intellectual out from a serious look at whats going on in our now global community.

if we want to make a difference we should simply be nicer to people in general , now hows that for a naive world view

be kind and polite to everyone one you meet , but be prepared to kill them


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Valkenar wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
Some practice martial arts because 'it is fun' [the biggest crock of shite you will hear] think of the word martial and then the 'real why' people are drawn to it.


Do you mean that "it is fun" isn't people's real reason, or that it's a bad reason?


It isn't the real reason, never was.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:22 pm 
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MarkNoble wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
I think that the mindset of many martial arts students still is that watever they are practicing is the ultimate in self defense/protection...against any threat...and it all happens 'automatically'...


I'm certainly not under any such delusion. If someone drew a Glock .45 on me, I wouldn't try to spin-kick it out of their hands. :D

It's more of a question of balancing the probability of staring down the barrel of a handgun vs. the implications and consequences of arming yourself for that kind of threat (assuming it's legally allowed in one's jurisdiction).

The fundamental question that I think we should try to answer is whether the solution to a gun problem is to have more guns?


Mark,

"balancing the probability of staring down the barrel of a handgun" has nothing to do with some people's decisions to arm themselves for self protection.

Over the years, we have been through this subject dozens of times on my forum in an endless loop that gets people nowhere other than turning them against each other _ because of its highly emotional nature.

Perfectly understandable, but no longer something I am willing to put up with on my page...too much of a bother to try to keep the flames from ramping up. Nothing will ever change.

So let's try to steer the discussion in other directions.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:44 pm 
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The first step you learn in the force continuum concept is threat identification. A good self defense instructor and student… should be able to identify threats and employ the appropriate response action and tactics to their advantage and keep the bad guy/s from getting in close undetected.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
It isn't the real reason, never was.


Maybe some people have secret, hidden reasons, I can't speak to that. For me, it is about fun, and has been for a while. When I was a kid I did few years of martial arts for self defense. In college, I picked up Uechi-ryu mainly because I like formalized systems of movement. It's the same basic reason I took up ballet at the same time. Karate, for me, is about a few things, but the self-defense aspect was always a small side-benefit. It's entertaining to think about, but especially having read more about Self Defense Realities, it's not something I would even include in a list of reasons I do it at this point.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:37 am 
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Then you are the exception Justin, good for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:02 am 
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It starts with being aware of one's environment and identifying potential threats and having a plan to 'stop' everyone you meet that is considered to be a potential threat to your personal safety, if unable to avoid or defuse.

Once the threat is identified the person needs to have learned the proper tactics and how to effectively use all weapons, empty hands,improvised and or the ones chosen to legally carry that 'matches' the moment.

The training should be multi-disciplined and incorporate hand to hand and transition to the weapons as above. This training should also re-enforce that the gun is not the answer to every problem.

There is a very definite continuum, for the people well trained in the concept, critical for many reasons, one of them being the second 'fight', just as serious, that follows the first.

Any ideas of what that might be?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:04 am 
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This says it all.
Quote:
Just like every tool in the tool box of tactics _there are many uses for these tools but the weakest link is usually the monkey behind the monkey wrench that doesn’t know which tool is appropriate for the situation at hand.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:11 am 
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MarkNoble wrote:
A couple of studies...

Journal of Experimental Child Psychology

Volume 21, Issue 2, April 1976, Pages 303–315
Cover image
Effects of toy guns and airplanes on children's antisocial free play behavior

Charles W TurnerCorresponding author contact information,
Diane Goldsmith

University of Utah USA

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0022-0965(76)90044-8, How to Cite or Link Using DOI

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Abstract

The effects of toy guns and toy airplanes on children's antisocial (aggression and rule-breaking) behavior was investigated in two settings (ten children in Study I and 13 in Study II) during 30-min free play sessions. Four-and 5-year-old children were observed during 15–16 free play sessions. During some sessions the children played either with (novel, aggressive) toy guns or with (novel, nonaggressive) toy airplanes in addition to their usual toys. In both studies, the toy guns treatment produced a reliably higher rate of antisocial behavior than the average of the toy airplaines and the usual toys. The novel-nonaggressive toy airplanes also increased the rate of antisocial behavior as compared to usual toys in Study II. The results were related primarily to Berkowitz's and Bandura's analyses of aggressive behavior, but they were related also to other theoretical models which predict stimulus control of behavior.



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Article

Gun Violence Among Youth and the Pediatrician's Role in Primary Prevention

Daniel W. Webster,
Modena E. H. Wilson

+ Author Affiliations

Center for Injury Research and Policy, School of Hygiene and Public Health
Center for Injury Research and Policy, School of Hygiene and Public Health, Department of Pediatrics, School of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore

Abstract

Adolescence is a developmental stage characterized by high rates of violent behavior. Increasingly, violent injury is involving preadolescent children. Evidence suggests that the availability of guns increases the lethality of violent acts. Because guns are ubiquitous in the United States and integral to the current epidemic of youth violence, pediatricians should participate in primary prevention of firearm injuries. Efforts should begin long before children reach adolescence. Pediatricians should: (1) Encourage parents to remove guns from the home, or at a minimum to keep guns unloaded and locked up; (2) Advise parents to limit viewing of gun violence in the media, and playing with toy guns and video games that involve shooting (3) Be alert for early indicators of aggressive behavior; and (4) Become outspoken advocates for laws that restrict gun availability.

Copyright © 1994 by the American Academy of Pediatrics
Well there's an unbiased document with no agenda. ( S A R C A S M ) I'm no medical expert but after many decades of raising children and studying wildlife, I think is accurate to say that the early years in most species are all about aggression, it is when dominance....aka the pecking order is sorted out. Folks with the fancy letters after their name have forgotten that most are biologically hard wired to sort out the mating ritual soon after leaving the starting gate. Give a kid a symbol of war and he will instantly strive to be the warrior king! It's about position in the group/tribe/pack/herd. The strong mate the weak serve/obey. Fish to horses to man, they all do it!

Those who expose "make good choices" appear to have forgotten that play sorts out the social pecking order and battles fought as children settle things better not explored as adults. When the child is held back from sorting out this social pecking order the child may act out most violently later in life.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:28 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Any ideas of what that might be?
There may be three fights Van

1) for your freedom
2) the fight to preserve your assets
3) the fight with your values . (Even if the response was justified we are raised to believe the response is evil so we get looped into this moral rethink of the event over and over)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:35 am 
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Quote:
The fundamental question that I think we should try to answer is whether the solution to a gun problem is to have more guns?


its a crime problem period , its just lazy thinking to blame the gun , if the guns werent there and or could be removed. youd have a valid point of view , but your only targeting law abiding citizens if you make weapons illegal.

there are no shortage of laws against crime , I would argue the issue is always prevention and enforcement , no point making more laws that are equally unenforceable , I understand you think trying to erradicate firearms is a prevention , but I seriously doubt theres almost anywhere on the planet one could not lay there hands on an illegal firearm if they had the will to do so. I would quote your own perspective

Quote:
It's more of a question of balancing the probability of staring down the barrel of a handgun vs. the implications and consequences of arming yourself for that kind of threat (assuming it's legally allowed in one's jurisdiction).



So its not statistically valid enough for you to worry about it to happen to you , but statistically valid enough to worry about it happening to others?

I see it in every facet of the community , more problems , simple more laws , the fact there not addressing the real problem is ignored and the cycle continues , mental health , crime , disengaged youth , fanatics , a breakdown of community and intergenerational poverty .... do i need to continue ?



Quote:
I would like to also add that in my view, the issue of kids playing with guns and gun-ownership is distinct from externally-driven terrorist activity as now appears to have been the case in the Boston attacks.



yet you brought it up in that context? .

The thinking that toy guns create terrorists , or spree killers well its a big stretch , in fact id suggest not educating and restricting such toys would only encourage a fascination in them for many , you would succeed in either making them mysterious and interesting , or an object of fear , neither leads to a healthy understanding and respect for them.

And for the record , I dont think im pro-gun or anti gun , I think im gun neutral


Last edited by Stryke on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:40 am 
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Quote:
Well there's an unbiased document with no agenda. ( S A R C A S M ) I'm no medical expert but after many decades of raising children and studying wildlife, I think is accurate to say that the early years in most species are all about aggression, it is when dominance....aka the pecking order is sorted out. Folks with the fancy letters after their name have forgotten that most are biologically hard wired to sort out the mating ritual soon after leaving the starting gate. Give a kid a symbol of war and he will instantly strive to be the warrior king! It's about position in the group/tribe/pack/herd. The strong mate the weak serve/obey. Fish to horses to man, they all do it!

Those who expose "make good choices" appear to have forgotten that play sorts out the social pecking order and battles fought as children settle things better not explored as adults. When the child is held back from sorting out this social pecking order the child may act out most violently later in life.


Hey mate thats the just for fun part most are talking about when they do martial arts , the two primary drives that derives from the self interest/survival instinct...... to do things with others or against others , martial arts caters too them both nicely , some may not admit they like the fighting or dominance games , but its all part of the human phsyce


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