Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:20 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29949
The only time I thought about putting up my arms in a guard position, was when I was fighting tournaments, a sporting event, or when practicing prearranged drills.

And that's sport.

When I think of a real fight, I think of 'putting up' my arms only as they slam into an opponent's vital areas before the opponent has a chance to lift his own arms or cock any weapon, like a bat.

The best 'defense' is to have good 'off line' movement so as to avoid getting hit in the first place; your 'guard' should only be to stop what gets through as you inflict damage to the adversary in the fog of war…not your first line of defense.

Through tournament competition against different systems you learn that you can't have 100% defense when you get into an 'exchange' with an opponent who might be faster and more skilled _with incoming techniques you are not too familiar with, because of the different lines of direction and force.

In such cases, you need to cover the most vulnerable parts, such as your face/chin and ribs, as you angle, flank and pre-empt.The elbows of Uechi _in positional transitions _ open hands or closed fists, will give you some cover. The beauty of our style if understood and practiced realistically.

In a real fight …You also need to learn to blade your body, staggering your stance, to protect the groin, while also learning to use your well conditioned shins to check low kicks, and knees to 'bore in' to disrupt…but most practitioners do not have the discipline to condition the body/shins/arms…

In my view, as good as blocks are, they will always be of dubious utility as a primary defense as anyone with good striking skills will 'pop' you in the places you think you are protecting in the chaos of any exchange, when adrenaline is creating havoc in your system.

In a real fight the last thing you want to do is to be caught in a reactive process.

Do not think blocks in a fight... I repeat… the best 'defense' is to have good movement so as to avoid getting hit in the first place; your 'guard' should only be to stop what gets through, not your first line of defense.

You need to learn to sense when the fight has already begun, and try to forestall it before giving the opponent a chance to 'cock' his weapons…i.e., his fists, a club, a bat, etc.

Train to get your shins a hard as steel and practice low chopping kicks to the legs of the opponent while his attention is mostly above his waist or yours becoming affected by tunnel vision. Your job is to destroy the opponent's structural support at first touch.

Some of you may have witnessed some competitors in Uechi fighting start to puke after being hit with shin shots in the legs.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Well put Sensei - evading an incoming attack is the ideal with deflecting/blocking/absorbing being reserved as back-up options if the first line fails. Boxers tend to be good at this as do white crane and wado ryu guys who practice 'tai sabaki'. It starts to become less of an option in very close quarters situations (a crowded venue or a stairwell) though doesn't it?

Regarding conditioning of the shins, I showed this video to another friend of mine who just finished medical school and asked him what he thinks of conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maQINqPI ... be&t=5m55s

His response (and probably the sentiment of many students) was to ask why anyone would do that to themselves?

Van Canna wrote:
In a real fight the last thing you want to do is to be caught in a reactive process.

You need to learn to sense when the fight has already begun, and try to forestall it before giving the opponent a chance to 'cock' his weapons…i.e., his fists, a club, a bat, etc.


If I read this correctly, you're saying that one should try to strike first in a fight i.e. "hit him first before he hits you". I see the logic there but isn't Uechi primarily a counter-attack style?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:35 am
Posts: 94
Location: Nagahama Okinawa
MarkNoble wrote:
If I read this correctly, you're saying that one should try to strike first in a fight i.e. "hit him first before he hits you". I see the logic there but isn't Uechi primarily a counter-attack style?


Mark,

The word in Japanese used to describe the style's fighting philosophy is "mamoru", often translated to mean exclusively "defend" -- but it means "keep, defend, PROTECT, safeguard" etc. When the danger is evident, or the threat is obvious, you protect. The attack has already been launched. You must act with, not react to. Protect. Your training -- in and out of the dojo -- determines how (and how well) you do this.

Countering is for tournaments, or for when the other guy manages to strike at you first. I think the point is 1) don't let him land the first blow, and 2) if he does, be sure he never gets the chance to land a second one. Ever.

We can protect, as well as "defend"...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 420
Good posts , there is big mindset difference between actively covering and being prepared , and waiting and watching .

ps not advocating taking obvious figthing stances and postures or standing on the spot :)

your apearing natural and ready to go , not waiting to see what happens and react , and utilising the flinch response or any other layered trained mechanisims.

ready to enter on force/overwhelm and limit options for potential attackers .

self protection


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29949
Good post by Seizan.

Mark you wrote
Quote:
If I read this correctly, you're saying that one should try to strike first in a fight i.e. "hit him first before he hits you". I see the logic there but isn't Uechi primarily a counter-attack style?


I would be interested in the how you came to this perception, because there is lots to learn from how and where you got that impression from. Was it from watching kata, prearranged kumite, or sparring?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29949
Quote:
His response (and probably the sentiment of many students) was to ask why anyone would do that to themselves?


Interesting :) like why would football players do that to themselves in the way they train to get used to taking body breaking hits?

Conditioning is honing body weapons a little at a time,breaking bats is just for show once in a while.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 420
Quote:
If I read this correctly, you're saying that one should try to strike first in a fight i.e. "hit him first before he hits you". I see the logic there but isn't Uechi primarily a counter-attack style?


I really dislike this mentality of teaching martial arts , IMHO its just training to be a victim

If your waiting to be attacked before responding your stacking the deck in the attackers favour .

I am not advocating striking first or assaulting people , I am advocating understanding reasonable force , justified action , restraint , de-escalation , heck understanding the entire legal force continuim.

while many dont train martial arts for self protection, if you are this is the route , it is very simple to say wait till you are attacked , but your taking away some of the biggest chances of dealing with things without violence , and taking away the biggest chance of negotiating violence successfully with some sort of tactical superiority.

lets face it people dont step out those they feel have the advantage.

establishing a fence , establishing there intent , establishing your reasonableness and there unreasonableness , puts you in the perfect position legally morally and ethically , who strikes first shoot be moot by that point , it could be a simple as putting your hands up in a placating gesture and saying stay back while moving away .....

but you have already struck first , your acting and taking control , what is required now is what is required by the circumstance , you will have little doubt if you firstly address the doubt .

Observe- be aware
Orient- clarify there intent and limit their opportunitys (physically or tactically)
Decide- what is reasonable and justifiable and/or necessary for your protection
Act- carry out your decision deliberately and without hesitation.

you need to get in this loop as qucikly and confidently as you can, and you need to be able to cycle it as quickly as you can. This takes practice , and I beleive with training and practice observation can lead directly to reliable action.

Quote:
“If a man does not strike first, he will be the first struck.” —Athenagoras of Syracuse


wether this is literal or metaphorical , it remains true

Seisans excellent post which i read as the difference of a defensive mind or protective mind is a excellent example of this in martial arts to me.

Mamoru- we call it the counter ambush , same principle same reasons , thanks for the information Seisan.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Van Canna wrote:
Good post by Seizan.

Mark you wrote
Quote:
If I read this correctly, you're saying that one should try to strike first in a fight i.e. "hit him first before he hits you". I see the logic there but isn't Uechi primarily a counter-attack style?


I would be interested in the how you came to this perception, because there is lots to learn from how and where you got that impression from. Was it from watching kata, prearranged kumite, or sparring?


I'm came to it from a couple of sources, including:

1) I was discussing the style to a guy who had trained Uechi and then moved on to Muay Thai and MMA. He was saying that it was a good style but that (in his words) "you would have to cross-train in something else to get any offense" because it was such a defensive style.

2) Watching many of the techniques (e.g. kote-uchi), they seem to rely on a reaction to your opponent throwing something and you grab his striking arm and counter-attack.

3) This excerpt that I read about white crane and an aspect that I thought it still shared with Pangainoon/Uechi.

"A good White Crane fighter can, amongst other things, sidestep and strike an opponent. This tactic is very effective in self-defense scenarios against a completely committed and possibly enraged adversary. It was not designed for the often tentative, forewarned and illusory nature of controlled sparring involving mutually consenting competitors."

Seizan, do you live in Okinawa? If so, it's great that you have access to all of those teachers that the rest of the world only gets for short seminars and camps.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29949
Good discussion and good points.

If you think of it…the very best way to self protect, if one is unable to avoid, defuse, etc. as Stryke points out…

…. Is to attack the attack while the opponent's aggressive 'mental intent' is about to become physical, thereby 'short stopping' the process… if it is tactically sound.
It is all about learning to 'anticipate' and this is very difficult, because anticipation will be mental as well as physical.

But just because we may be effective in 'anticipating' it is sophomoric to rely on the assumption that whatever we hit the opponent with will successfully stop him from fighting back.

So we need to practice not only footwork to get off line and flank…but also the so called 'blocking' movements to intercept what gets through your offensive; redirect what gets through…out of the way of your continuum of blows to the targets that the opponent's striking moves might be covering as you go for them.

This is what we learn through the kata, the kumites and through free sparring.

The beauty of Uechi is the Wauke…an intercept and 'sweep away' technique, that also hides flanking pre-emptive strikes that not many people , who do not study it, will quickly grasp.

And this is also the way you will see the techniques mostly demonstrated.

The 'kote Uchi' can be launched in many ways…one of the way I teach it is to hide the right arm behind your back as you blade and put your left palm up at close range, the fire it rising it over and around the opponent's left shoulder through his blind spot. There are many more ways.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29949
Keep in mind that the best martial artists develop a peculiar ability to read a developing situation and physical attacks about to come their way.

This allows them to move tactically where they can quickly close down their opposition.

Superior anticipation will allow you to 'position' yourself mentally...and physically in 'areas' where you should be able to lay hard and effective pre-emptive 'action'...this is how we all should train.

You see this in all professional contact sports and you will learn a great deal of this through tournament fighting and scenario training.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 554
Quote
"Keep in mind that the best martial artists develop a peculiar ability to read a developing situation and physical attacks about to come their way.

This allows them to move tactically where they can quickly close down their opposition."

I think that there are layers of this as well. The first is when you automatically give off signals unconsciously that you are not someone to mess with, this only has resonance with skilled or tough people .you notice when you go to a strange dojo, the really tough people are respectfull, the clowns aren't :lol: ..and this morphs into something else, but maybe it's just my perception. To give an example I have a French mastiff , little old ladies and kids think he's cute, scallies and thugs think he's a hard dog.......and he's both of these things. people aren't much different.
As to the moving tactically there is this also,but for the really skilled martial artist, it just won't look like he is getting into the best situation, it will look like a totally innocent movement.
think of it this way as well, if you train to speak in another language eventually you will gain in proficiency till maybe one day you are totally fluent, on the way there will be signs of this and every effort that you make will not be wasted....just yesterday I was working out on " Poor Bob" and showing my youngest son how to do combinations, I wasn't wearing boxing gloves just empty hands, my son had to stop because his hands hurt, but mine don't anymore just because I've done it so many times...now I don't do any conditioning, but just honest practice will give you that. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
I guess that if a martial artist has enough skill and experience, s/he can feel out the exact moment before an opponent is going to strike and do his/her own preemptive attack. I am not really at that level yet so I would probably have to do my first strike while things are "heating up".

Interesting also about the wauke concept. I hadn't heard this term before your post and indeed, it doesn't seem to be well known because I did a google search on it and not much came up. Conversely, try doing a search for tai sabaki and you get a lot of results.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 554
I don't think that you have to be a martial artist to know when things are turning nasty. If you still think in terms of blocking a punch ,well then maybe you can do this at a high level, although most people on this forum would not advocate that, they would be more into seizing whatever opportunity existed even if it was running for the nearest door :lol: , and I'n not joking, that is the first thing I would think of. In times past I have seen the situation in a pub or crowded place start to deteriorate and slowly made my way to the exit getting out well before any trouble manifested..........two ways to think of this if I'm right I have avoided a violent conforntation, but if I'm wrong then why would I want to remain in a place that made me fear this?.it would spoil my night, I could be in a happier place :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Jorvik - I was referring to that instant before your adversary attacks not so much the minute or so of verbal escalation before the first punch is thrown.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 554
Well , you should be well aware of the danger that you are in well before he attacks. that is really the secret. You don't wait until just prior the attack to do something, you should already be doing something
this guy explains it far better than I can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIu8DY-EH6w


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 159 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group