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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Another thing to keep in mind, IMO, is that off line movements will need to be practiced not only against the straight karate punches we see in the Enshin clips [which illustrate a concept] but against sudden shoves, one or two handed, against your chest or your shoulders from the sides.

In many cases someone close to you will just grab your shirt/jacket with one hand and then pummel you with the other. This practice also ingrains the distancing concept.

We need to train to 'get off line' both on the outside [preferred] or the inside of a punch, grab, shove, etc. / We have some great Uechi techniques that will work well inside and outside.

We also need to train against overhand punches, jabs, crosses, hooks, and in particular shovel hooks to the liver and spleen.

And what about uppercuts? Where is the bunkai for it?

And we also need to train to get off the X against a number of kicks.

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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:55 pm 
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The attack is taken by the lead forarm, as in the first video. Eg. Rght forearm in right sanchin.Defender holds his ground, as if he cannot yield or as if the back is to a wall.Naturally it could also be an entry as in th video. I saw the forearm/entry as the stationary arm in the wauke.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:07 pm 
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OK_I will have Joe show me that move in more detail when I see him next.

Forearms entries are my favorites at the neck area to pre-empt, quicker than circular blocks if unable to slide off line, and I throw my body weight into them.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:30 am 
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We do practice that tai sabaki technique from the Enshin clips in our KK drills as well, but when it comes it to sparring and fighting it's a lot more head to head. Of course, those kinds of fights tend to look different because both fighters have had training and are less likely to lunge into a compromising position as would the angry brute on the street.

I like your suggested drill of practicing defense with your back against the wall to develop lateral movement. Boxers practice circling around a ring all the time and they are very good at it. They love moving to the side and throwing a hook to the head or the body and they have a sense of timing for it that the average karateka lacks.

Van Canna wrote:
Also trying to 'block' low shin round house kicks aimed at the legs, inside or out, with your rising your legs, is fraught with danger when receiving 'killer kicks' _

In our dojo I have some very powerful black belts well over two hundred pounds, two of which are former heavy weight boxers.

I show the need to get off the line of attack, by placing a heavy bag on the floor resting against a student's side of the leg and then I have the powerful black belts kick the bag full force. Those shots move both the bag and the person sideways upon impact.


Good point. That knee raise move is the default way that Thai fighters block leg kicks in competition. Naturally, they are divided into weight classes so you wouldn't see a 150 lbs guy checking a leg kick from a 230 lbs behemoth. It would be a different scenario in a street-fight.

Sensei have you ever tried doing a youtube search for "felony fights" ? There you will see some street-fights between untrained 'persons' whose combined IQ's would still qualify one for clinical retardation. Nonetheless, what they do is quite close to the things that I have seen on many 'nights out on the town' and probably a good learning tool.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:39 am 
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Stryke wrote:
the other conditioned element of movement IMHO is non resistance , I need to get away form my instinct to stand , to root and too push back , exactly what is expected and wanted , by yielding and moving we can condition our reaction to yield absorb and have the potential to attack rather than resist, being active rather than reactive.

Being loose and explosive rather than tense and resistant.

yielding is often an opening of the qua and a torque , giving the potential for the compression and more powerful counterattack.

there's room for soft and hard , but really you need a point were they both come together , and that's the strategic position and point of least resistance , and that's not on the tracks.


Yes, this is the underlying wisdom behind such styles as Taijichaun, Aikido, etc.. right? Unfortunately, it's tough to pull off in a real fight.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:11 am 
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Quote:
We do practice that tai sabaki technique from the Enshin clips in our KK drills as well, but when it comes it to sparring and fighting it's a lot more head to head. Of course, those kinds of fights tend to look different because both fighters have had training and are less likely to lunge into a compromising position as would the angry brute on the street.


The best karate teachers will tell you that a real street fight won't look like anything you do in the dojo, should you ever be involved in one.

However the concepts you have ingrained will always follow the 'rule' of 'operant conditioning'…meaning you will subconsciously move and do in ways resembling your training, not exactly the same but in a similar 'ball park' of action. If you never trained those concepts you'd be a stick in the mud or the proverbial 'wall flower'_

This can be seen in trained athletes playing contact sports.

And here I speak of experience, both in sports and real life engagements.

Quote:
I like your suggested drill of practicing defense with your back against the wall to develop lateral movement. Boxers practice circling around a ring all the time and they are very good at it. They love moving to the side and throwing a hook to the head or the body and they have a sense of timing for it that the average karateka lacks.


Many good teachers teach and practice the 'against the wall' drills.

The manner in which I teach them is to habituate a student to ingrain certain patterns of movement and tactics:

Examples:

1. With your back to the wall and free space to your right and left sides we practice lateral take off against kicks, punches and grabs, flanking the opponent.

2. I then place objects directly to the sides of the student against the wall to prevent side to side movement but leaving the oblique clear, such as the diagonal angles to 10 an 2 o'clock.

This forces the defender to 'slide by' an attack in forward angles, using the protective moves of our wauke in ways to avoid while sticking to the attack, then turning to get behind the opponent and slam his head into the wall aided by his momentum.

Another inherent application in this angled take off is the trailing leg shin smashing into the opponent shins as you move diagonally.

3. I then block all possible angles of motion for the defender against the wall, who then must develop the concepts of pre-empting the attack upon sensing it coming, by attacking the attack, and or quickly blading the body as in the 'swinging door' aspects found in our kata.

4. But the most important 'technique' to develop, when up against a wall, is the one to sense 'something coming' and move to create distance before any attack has had a chance to materialize. The most difficult.
~~~

Again, the well practiced student, understands completely that none of what he does in the dojo will look or 'emerge' the same in a real encounter...

But he knows that the concepts will, another reason why the best teachers teach conceptually.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:24 am 
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Quote:
Good point. That knee raise move is the default way that Thai fighters block leg kicks in competition. Naturally, they are divided into weight classes so you wouldn't see a 150 lbs guy checking a leg kick from a 230 lbs behemoth. It would be a different scenario in a street-fight.


The way to train is to ingrain the leg blocks and the 'spin outs' of 'off the X'_

I suggest your reading THE BOOK 'Sharpening the warrior's edge' by Bruce Siddle, which covers in detail the ways the body organizes well taught fighting concepts, once they become instinctive.

It is all in the way we train.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:31 am 
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Sensei have you ever tried doing a you tube search for" felony fights? There you will see some street-fights between untrained 'persons' whose combined IQ's would still qualify one for clinical retardation. Nonetheless, what they do is quite close to the things that I have seen on many 'nights out on the town' and probably a good learning tool.


Yes, I have seen those and the lessons are many to a martial arts practitioner.

The chaos of combat is something absent in the dojo, and those fights also sober up so many of us as to assumptions of what works and what doesn't in a general sense.

Also that there are no guarantees of winning or surviving any street fight, no matter we do know or do, in particular when we 'gas out' quicker than we thought.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:37 am 
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Yes, this is the underlying wisdom behind such styles as Taijichaun, Aikido, etc.. right? Unfortunately, it's tough to pull off in a real fight.


True. Real fights are nothing like what we sometimes imagine will be like, and all the we know or think we know, will not be 'easy' to pull off.

However the 'concepts' as opposed to 'techniques' have a better chance of materializing in a trained individual as opposed in one who does not train.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:56 am 
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And the 'real reality' of street fights reality is that fighting with empty hands, no matter what the skill level may be, is marginal in self defense, as empty hands is what you do when your hands are empty, a bad predicament to find your self in.

Always carry an equalizer of legal persuasion...all serious students of self protection do. Never assume you will be facing a lone opponent to begin with.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:25 am 
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Yes, this is the underlying wisdom behind such styles as Taijichaun, Aikido, etc.. right? Unfortunately, it's tough to pull off in a real fight.


that's why we train , I don't expect many to agree but you can learn all the basic moves for karate in an afternoon , but developing them and the ingraining the concepts of movement structure and tactics take a lot longer.

the simple stuff is on the train tracks , then some progress to working around there opponent instead of around themselves , then the few get to working the relationship between the two.

the thing with concepts of non resistance is you have to go all the way in for them to work , you cant train force on force then expect a higher skill to come out where you ignore that ingraining.

better to view it as a continuum hit by force, meet force , yield to force , join force , and evolve the skill as you improve , and if you screw up the higher skill you find yourself on whichever tier, and work out of there.

it depends on your investment and what you want to get out of your training , basic cqb , art , or mastery .... another continuum and congruency is needed for any approach


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:33 am 
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working out of confinement against walls etc is excellent as it forces you to examine the movement you really have at your disposal even on the spot. Find the flow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5g5EYG5BRY


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:42 am 
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We also need to train against overhand punches, jabs, crosses, hooks, and in particular shovel hooks to the liver and spleen.

And what about uppercuts? Where is the bunkai for it?


Van I do all these from kotikitae type drills , straight , circular , under and over , from hybridising McCarthys tegumi drills , Kotikitae and FMA hubud lubid , even the goju clip ray just posted, universal concept based on the principle of the Uechi Wauke......(wauke translate circle reception)

the beauty being the hands inform the feet if you get to that level and they show which way the body should be following , the arms providing the pivot to the same side foot and then spinning out/in , and to borrow from you doing a wauke with the feet.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:58 am 
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Stryke wrote:
Quote:
We also need to train against overhand punches, jabs, crosses, hooks, and in particular shovel hooks to the liver and spleen.

And what about uppercuts? Where is the bunkai for it?


Van I do all these from kotikitae type drills , straight , circular , under and over , from hybridising McCarthys tegumi drills , Kotikitae and FMA hubud lubid , even the goju clip ray just posted, universal concept based on the principle of the Uechi Wauke......(wauke translate circle reception)

the beauty being the hands inform the feet if you get to that level and they show which way the body should be following , the arms providing the pivot to the same side foot and then spinning out/in , and to borrow from you doing a wauke with the feet.



We do train for overhand haymakers, or at least I feel we do. The club/overhand attack in kanshiwa is taken on coming in, it's taken moving back in kyu kumite #4, taken on coming in in seisan etc. And kotekitai is also useful if we make something practical out of the exercise.

Play around with the kata and see what's practical. Not sure where we are working on uppercut defense though.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:39 pm 
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"Yes, this is the underlying wisdom behind such styles as Taijichaun, Aikido, etc.. right? Unfortunately, it's tough to pull off in a real fight."

With Tai chi you have to understand that this was practiced by the emperor's bodyguards, I can't see them being taught rubbish :? .it is difficult to pull off, but what has happened with a lot of martial arts is over time they have been dumbed down, especially arts like Tai Chi and Aikido which in their day had fantastic reputations. there has been a classical disconnect in these arts...i.e what was taught originally is not taught now.
I found this very significantly in Wing Chun, and I know that it happenend in Aikido, the sources are well documented.
What we have now is a lot of folks trying to reinvent applications and very few being able to draw from their martial art.


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