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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:04 pm 
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working out of confinement against walls etc is excellent as it forces you to examine the movement you really have at your disposal even on the spot. Find the flow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5g5EYG5BRY

Thanks for posting this Marcus. The swinging door analogy well demonstrated.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:28 pm 
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the beauty being the hands inform the feet if you get to that level and they show which way the body should be following , the arms providing the pivot to the same side foot and then spinning out/in , and to borrow from you doing a wauke with the feet.


I like this description Marcus and it makes sense.

Pivoting and spinning advantages are also seen in kicking and hand techniques of some styles.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvZUA7uSso

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:37 pm 
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One hand club attacks: most times you will see the hand/arm coming up to 'cock' the weapon. One way is to train to move as he moves e.g. as he cocks the weapon you enter with your forearms[ulnar]/elbows spearing/shearing his windpipe and or the carotid sinus.

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A club attack is deadly force so you would be justified in using this very dangerous strike to the artery.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Two handed club attack: Most likely you will be up against this with an opponent holding a baseball bat.

He will usually have the bat already cocked over his shoulder in approaching you like this:

Image

As he closes the distance he will then strike holding the bat with two hands swinging either at your head laterally [baseball operant conditioning] or slashing down to your legs.

~~
Again one way to train is to 'enter' the swing and rotate with it as you place yourself outside of the swing to counter.

But the very best way to handle these attacks, one or two handed, is to attack the person holding the club/bat as soon you become aware of his intent to attack you, taking away his ability to 'cock' the weapon, much less beginning the swing.

This stuff can result in very serious injuries or death for the defender who might well hesitate and or misjudge the timing. So train this assiduously setting up scenarios, not necessarily the same old bunkais which are nothing more than concepts rather than strict techniques.

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 7:52 pm 
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* Classical MA perspective:

"The carotid arteries carry blood to your brain. The vagus nerves regulate your heartbeat and breathing. They coincide at a point on the neck just below the angle of the jaw. Light blows to carotid sinus cause the victim to faint within five seconds, while heavy blows cause almost instantaneous brain death. All blows to the carotid sinus are dangerous due to a greatly increased risk of stroke following undiagnosed arterial wall disintegration. So do not practice, or allow others to practice, hard blows to this target! The acupressure point is Small Intestine 17. "

"Chokes and punches to the front of the neck can shut off the carotid arteries. This causes unconsciousness within fifteen seconds and death in three to six minutes. Meanwhile, attacks that damage the windpipe cause death through suffocation. To resuscitate victims, you can try laryngotomies, tracheotomies, and CPR. Targets include the following."

* Medical science perspective:

"Injury to the carotid artery can occur in athletes by direct blow to the neck or by hyperextension of the neck. After such injury, symptoms may be mild or transient. Catastrophic complications such as stroke can occur if the injury is not recognized and treated."

"A 19-year-old high school hockey goalie was struck in the neck by a puck during a game. His neck was extended when injured, and he was not wearing neck protection. He was stunned for a few minutes but remained conscious. Although the patient wished to continue the game, his friends brought him in for medical assessment."

"A 31-year-old man was playing unsupervised tackle football when he was struck in the right side of the neck as he attempted to catch a pass. His neck was extended when he was injured. He developed blurred vision in his right eye and experienced a transient weakness of his left arm. He was brought to the emergency room from the field by his friends."

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Stryke - I guess the options for dealing with an incoming blow can be summarized as follows:

1) Absorb (Easiest / Least Desirable)
2) Block/Deflect (Moderately Difficult / Moderately Desirable)
3) Evade (Most Difficult / Most Desirable)

Jorvik - I don't think it's just an issue of those styles being 'watered-down' over the years although that might be a factor as well. As I have stated before, I think they're best suited for people who are already accomplished martial artists. For example, of the Aikido styles, Yoshinkan is the one that is considered to be most direct, most practical, most jujutsu-like, and therefore the style that is taught to the Tokyo Police Department. A couple of years ago, I was at a dinner with Takeshi Kimeda Sensei (9th Dan) the highest ranked Yoshinkan Sensei outside of Japan. I asked him pointedly what he thought of the style's usefulness for self-defense. His first response was that it was the style taught to the Tokyo Police so it must have some practicality in the field... then he went on to say that one would have to train for 10 years before s/he could truly rely on it in combat.

Sensei Van - I have now ordered that book. Thank you for the recommendation.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:53 pm 
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"Jorvik - I don't think it's just an issue of those styles being 'watered-down' over the years although that might be a factor as well. As I have stated before, I think they're best suited for people who are already accomplished martial artists. For example, of the Aikido styles, Yoshinkan is the one that is considered to be most direct, most practical, most jujutsu-like, and therefore the style that is taught to the Tokyo Police Department. A couple of years ago, I was at a dinner with Takeshi Kimeda Sensei (9th Dan) the highest ranked Yoshinkan Sensei outside of Japan. I asked him pointedly what he thought of the style's usefulness for self-defense. His first response was that it was the style taught to the Tokyo Police so it must have some practicality in the field... then he went on to say that one would have to train for 10 years before s/he could truly rely on it in combat."

Well i wouldn't say that aikido was the most effective of the arts that I mentioned.Tai Chi and Wing chun have a far deeper philosophy and method to deal with violence. However, what you have with Aikido is a history of development. What is taught now at the Aikikai is basically something invented by Uechibas son and Koichi tohei, also over the years Ueshiba taught other folks who went off in their own direction.the only
Aikido school IMHO which stayed true to Ueshiba was the Iwama school of Saito .where Ueshiba practised until his death....but I stick with the point that I made..some schools have gotten away from what their original method was, and in many cases practice entirely different techniques to what was originally taught.....people look too much to kata as a source of technique, when really it plays only a small part in the overall art...you can witness this in many Chinese styles such as Mantis, where the way that they fight looks nothing like the way their forms are

I have personal experience of this with the first part of the Wing chun system. There are a sequence of movements called the three salutations to the Buddha, which are done very slowly..now if you know their real significance you can do them as fast as you like or not even bother with doing them in the form, they are just a reminder of how and why you do the stance, people who don't know this ( and there are many) spend hours doing them slowly.and achieving nothing in the process.

You might not know this but Oyama had master Sawai as his spiritual mentor and Sawai practised Taikiken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhd-N1x9bhU

here they are fighting the kyokoshinkai fellas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkC35VbWGvw

If you think Tai chi or Aikido lack fighting techniques....then look at how these guys train :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07FauHYlmg


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:41 am 
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Stryke - I guess the options for dealing with an incoming blow can be summarized as follows:

1) Absorb (Easiest / Least Desirable)
2) Block/Deflect (Moderately Difficult / Moderately Desirable)
3) Evade (Most Difficult / Most Desirable)


My list goes like this

1) working from getting hit , you got caught
2) Flinch
3) Meet the force (active flinch,attack the attack, block etc)
4) redirect the force(shearing angling kotikitae etc, meet the force on angles with covers)
5) Yeild to the force ( move yourself and establish covers instead of their attack .Get off the line and use position too advantage)
6) join the force (get off the line and use the position and their force to your advantage)
7) lead the force(draw the line of force from your attacker get of line establish covers and use the position and force to your advantage)

Now I know its an essay and looks like a million options but I see it as a sophistication of a single skill, adding more and more sophistication , and a continuum were you can fall on any level of experience/skill

It also holds true for clinching and throwing and grappling in my experience , the end goal being functional spontaneity and the flow state.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:05 am 
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I don't agree with Ray that kata is useless. It all depends on how the practice of kata is perceived in the style's training 'package' _

Among other benefits, kata is a catalogue of principles and concepts as practiced and understood by the more senior students, who clearly see that it is not necessary to apply those principles in any particular order, such as in sparring or even self defense.

They are simply there for us to dip in to and select them as appropriate to the situation, and this occurs mostly on auto pilot. But I agree that by itself it is not enough.

The serious TMA student soon learns that kata is part of 'package' of components which also requires, conditioning, bunkai applications as a basic guide, pre-arranged work and free style practice and competition in an open setting.

Next, the kata principles/concepts and its ingrained lines of force and directions must be tested against a drilling criteria based on the most common habitual acts of violence.

If you don't buy the whole 'package' you will have difficulty relating to the value of kata.

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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Besides being a catalogue of techniques, I find that kata and kihon have helped with my motor coordination and concentration. In class, we often practice 3, 4, 5 technique block/punch/kick combos while moving. Having to remember to execute the correct techniques, in the correct order, quickly, and using good form really builds your concentration and hand-eye coordination.

Jorvik - despite the poor quality, that video of the Taikiken vs KK guys was intense! I had not seen KK fights with face punching until I saw that. The Taikiken style is evidence that Yiquan/Xing Yi can blend well with KK but there are not a lot of guys who have done it. Hajime Kazumi is the only famous person that I know who uses that style. I would recommend reading Djurdjevic Sensei's writings on the appropriate phase in one's martial development to begin practicing internal arts http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.ca/search ... nal%20arts . To summarize his position though, he says that it's useful to start training internal arts when you reach the point of limiting returns in your external style, long after you already know how to fight.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
Quote:
Stryke - I guess the options for dealing with an incoming blow can be summarized as follows:

1) Absorb (Easiest / Least Desirable)
2) Block/Deflect (Moderately Difficult / Moderately Desirable)
3) Evade (Most Difficult / Most Desirable)


My list goes like this

1) working from getting hit , you got caught
2) Flinch
3) Meet the force (active flinch,attack the attack, block etc)
4) redirect the force(shearing angling kotikitae etc, meet the force on angles with covers)
5) Yeild to the force ( move yourself and establish covers instead of their attack .Get off the line and use position too advantage)
6) join the force (get off the line and use the position and their force to your advantage)
7) lead the force(draw the line of force from your attacker get of line establish covers and use the position and force to your advantage)

Now I know its an essay and looks like a million options but I see it as a sophistication of a single skill, adding more and more sophistication , and a continuum were you can fall on any level of experience/skill

It also holds true for clinching and throwing and grappling in my experience , the end goal being functional spontaneity and the flow state.


Good point, simply getting out of the way of an incoming blow isn't as optimal as blending with it and taking the person down when he's fully committed and off balance or repositioning into his blind spot and counter-striking.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 9:34 pm 
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"I would recommend reading Djurdjevic Sensei's writings on the appropriate phase in one's martial development to begin practicing internal arts http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.ca/search ... nal%20arts . To summarize his position though, he says that it's useful to start training internal arts when you reach the point of limiting returns in your external style, long after you already know how to fight."

Hi Mark, I don't agree with what he says. I have done both hard and soft martial arts as well as hard/soft martial arts. I don't really like the terminology at all. People who speak like that have a very false idea of what hard and soft are, based on what you can currently see around. speaking from personal experience I would have to say that it is very hard to find good Tai Chi.as to Aikido..look at something like Kuk sul won or Hapkido.really it's just aikido mixed with karate.or Aikido with a lot of atemi waza if you like :)


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Besides being a catalogue of techniques, I find that kata and kihon have helped with my motor coordination and concentration. In class, we often practice 3, 4, 5 technique block/punch/kick combos while moving. Having to remember to execute the correct techniques, in the correct order, quickly, and using good form really builds your concentration and hand-eye coordination.


Good points.

Another view of this kata question is:

There are students who rely on 'spoon feeding' of a TMA, and students who study the material being 'fed' to them from a basic view of human movement, then go from there with their own individual understanding.

People are different and surely they have their own ideas of what concepts/principles they need to adopt, of what works for them and more important what has been proven to work in general given the physical and mental nuances of self protection.

But there is one basic common denominator that cannot be denied, and it is the science of human movement.

It pays to understand that _to begin with _In order for the body to produce movement; the groups of muscles have to work in synergy, like they were chains. If one link is weak…well_

I have seen students coming to the dojo with inefficient body mechanics, weak muscular structure,either genetically, or because the student has not tested those mechanics through some sort of demanding sport.

A good teacher will soon realize that feeding techniques to someone who will attempt to perform them with inefficient body mechanics_ increases the danger of injury to the student and others he may work with. We have all seen this.

However the good teacher will also know that the human body can be reprogrammed, to a certain extent_ through specific methods of exercises of the style he studies and teaches, based on past experience.

The human body is capable of a great number of movements with freedom of articulation, but some people are affected with inhibited degrees of freedom and coordination in their movements.

You know it as soon as you see these people step on the dojo floor. You as the teacher will know it, but the student may not initially be aware of his own limitations.

So what I have observed over the years is that a well 'designed' kata, helps the student with such deficiencies , in exploring all the degrees of freedom in his body in order to get 'acquainted' and overcome his limitations of movement so that he can then proceed unhindered in learning specific movement patterns that lead to specific defensive applications.

At the very basic, we need to look at kata as a set of biomechanical exercises that compound movement's efficiency down the road_ when put to combat practical use .

A long term student of a traditional martial art, will come to understand and appreciate that the kata practice achieves powerful and stable ways of moving the human body in addition to 'educating' the body in power generation.

One of the reasons why I have generally seen kata champions also excel in free fighting competitions.

Think of kata as 'compulsories' in a given sport.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 3:11 am 
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Great thread, I agree with the comments on the value of kata, Van! Kata and hojo undo are my reference books the encyclopedia of motion.

My bunkai is based on experimentation on willing and unwilling meat puppets. The willing paid for the privilege. The unwilling just got what they deserved. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 3:57 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Hi Mark, I don't agree with what he says.
I don't hold him in great regard either mate. If memory serves correct, I think I ran him off of another forum because he behaved like the 2nd coming of Christ. No one complained when I did it.

Think the lad has lots of interesting thoughts but his opinion is rather black and white. Damn he's a lot like me. 8O 8O 8O

I think he's on a good path he just needs to step farther out of the box. Is it a block or a strike...lots of other uses for movement but it your only interested in hammers and nails that's all you'll ever see.

Blog appears like it may be an interesting read, thanks for the link Mark.

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