Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:09 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Real Training
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 574
As I have mentioned a lot of my training is with "Poor Bob". Recently I've looked more and more into what makes Kung Fu or Karate What it is.
Unfortunately a lot of karate is a poor copy of boxing, they use punches, but in no way as skilled as a boxer. I've seen this with kung fu guys as well..........................so In recent times I've started to rely more and more on open hand strikes, and what I have noticed is that you have to be target and technique specific. Each technique will only work on certain areas, also I have noticed that the thing that makes karate different to kung fu is that they use their own culture and their own training tools to develop it..so I'm doing the same with Bob. Now I do notice that you have to be a lot more assertive in your strikes and your attacks. So as an example I may want to attack the neck with a shuto, but it is protected by the chin so I use a palm heel to raise the chin before applying the shuto.....similarly I use a side palm to the jaw to set up a strike to the plexus. just wondering if other folks are forgoing the fist and experimenting with this type of training...I also notice that I tend to man handle Bob when I strike him, which is what I would do in a real fight :wink: .I've not tried sparring like this yet


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Maybe one reason for the popularity of the fist is its versatility in different strikes vs. open hand techniques that are very target specific.

So how can we use this knowledge to formulate a good game plan for dealing with an attacker? My thinking is you pick 1 - 2 open hand strikes that work well for you and your fighting style making sure that at least 1 of them works well in your planned response to a haymaker coming from your opponent's right hand - the most commonly encountered attack in a street fight.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 574
I've been dissatisfied for a long time with a lot of karate, because they don't punch as well as boxers and they have other weapons i.e. the open hand which they also don't seem to employ to full effect either. the reason boxing is so good is that it's all connected, often times with karate it isn't,kihon kata and kumite are very often practiced in a totally different format whereas with boxing nothing is wasted and even the training using bags and pads is all part of the whole thing.so why can't karate be the same?

It's not all bad though there are some people who combines them both and have a good training regime

this had a big impact on me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqqwGtp ... r_embedded
and as I a mainly train alone these days I found that I could mix it in with the other stuff that I do on BOB

I wouldn't always think of defence though...the concept on this forum is more to " attack the Attack".which is what I do.........I'm still picking up combos to work in with the stuff I already know :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
I know what you mean about punching in much of karate. I go to a kettlebell class at a boxing gym once a week and the coach there has been subtly telling me for a long time that I'm wasting my time with karate and should switch to boxing. The bottom line reason that I haven't is the much-discussed vulnerability of the fist to damage when hitting a face (one of boxer's primary targets) as well as the difference between bare-knuckle and gloved fighting. Otherwise, it's great - they have the best movement and cardio of all stand-up fighters and they're generally the best tacticians as well.

I would make the switch if I was just training for sport or for fitness but with self-defense and compatibility with Judo in mind, Karate/Kung Fu is a better fit for me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 574
Quote
"The bottom line reason that I haven't is the much-discussed vulnerability of the fist to damage when hitting a face (one of boxer's primary targets) as well as the difference between bare-knuckle and gloved fighting. Otherwise, it's great - they have the best movement and cardio of all stand-up fighters and they're generally the best tacticians as well."

Well in streetfights just about everyone uses their fists, so the likelyhood of injury to the fist is going to be that much greater, but bare in mind, you don't know the skill level of the people damaging their fists or what blow they used. I find hooks very dangerous for hand damage, when I did Wing Chun they used a vertical punch where there was very little chance of damage, but more often than not the palm heel was favoured
I do think the open hand should play more of a part in self defence because there are so many one hit stops, and extremly lethal blows like a palm heel to the chin. boxing training would be usefull whatever art you do as it teaches you greater mobility, and how to avoid being hit..and lots of other skills that can aid your Martial arts......kettlebells are fantastic, I only just started to use them before my hip had to be replaced, now I don't dare to use them in case I damage my hip replacement. if I were you then I would do the boxing training just for the exercise


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
There are some documented cases of champion-level fighters injuring their hands in street altercations. Do a search for Mike Tyson and Alistair Overeem in that regard.

Perhaps the vertical fist is less prone to injury than the horizontal fist - I don't know. I tried a class of WC a couple of years ago. For chain punching, the Sifu demonstrated striking the opponent's chin with the bottom 2-3 fingers of the vertical fist. According to Jack Dempsey, this is the most stable structure for the hand as it is supported by the strong ulnar bone. On the other hand, I have spoken with physical therapists who say that hitting with the first 2 knuckles is most structurally secure. I don't know who is correct.

In our dojo, we are told to put the force of the first 2 knuckles when striking or doing knuckle push-ups. I don't think that the vertical fist exists in any of the KK kata.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 574
Quote
"There are some documented cases of champion-level fighters injuring their hands in street altercations"

Yeah but if you look on Utube you will find people who do open hand strikes with deformed and splayed fingers, one of my senseis was like that, I guess that they would have hurt their hands a lot on the way to making them look like that, maybe lost a few fights because they had broken their fingers, who knows?.........personnally I don't think that you'll break fingers using a fist, much more likely to be the wrist.........wing Chun is not a good example to use because there are so many varieties of it and not everyone punches the same, they don't all do chain punches for example, but I've found the vertical punch to be reliable.
I knew of a world class boxer who used to get drunk and then get in fights, on one occasion he awoke the next day and his hand had swollen like a balloon, but he didn't know why. When he went to hospital they found a tooth in his hand.where he had obviously punched someone.but he didn't even realise he'd done it, I've known people who have been stabbed and not realised it.......so I don't think that it's such a big deal.
I think of hands as part of the arsnel, i know locks and throws, elbow strikes head butts etc.secret is , to practise anything you want to do until you feel comfortable with it.if no one else does it then great you have something that will surprise everyone.I'm very good with headbutts :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Good point. I have seen some of those mangled hands and it is certainly evidence that some open-hand fighters might also have severe long-term injuries. Maybe it's a case of overdoing the right thing?

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:50 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Banff AB
Interesting thread guys. Just finished 4 double shifts so I've now got some time to comment.
I'll eventually get back to the topic of manipulating the EBG to open the targets.

Thought I'd talk about fight injuries first.

Let me start by saying that broken bones only stop people who have no fight in them. I've broken way too many bones hitting folks it took me a long time to unclench the fist. I use to claim over a dozen times, but I have no idea. But I can definitely see the damage of 7 breaks on the right and 3 on the left. The boxer fractures have received frequent additional injury in subsequent fights. There has been a finger dislocation, a broken toe and 2 fractured ulna's as well.

Well interesting thing about the chemical cocktail is we don't feel the pain our system is flooded with endorphins. When injury occurs the bodies auto immune system kicks in the injury swells to immobilize it. Of all the injuries fighting or training the only one that stopped me was the dislocated finger, and that was an injury that happen in a fluke accident when no one had any adrenaline in their system.

I've smashed faces and kicked the crap out of people with broken arm bones, hand bones and foot bones. You don't usually notice until the fight is over. Anyone see Jone Bones Jones last fight he didn't notice his broken toe until it was pointed out in the post fight interview. His response....damn that's going to hurt later to night. That's pretty much how it works.

I've awaken the next day after an evening scrap and discovered swelling and bleeding because of broken bones. It does nothing in the moment if you got some fight in you. How ever when the threat is over and the adrenaline is gone, the injury lets you know it's not to be moved. I use to go to the doctor, now it's ice, elevate and some anti inflames and rest for the body part.

The big change in my life is I mellowed as I got older and I learned to use elbows, open hands and spinal manipulation to deal with aggressive folks. I don't mind giving it a go if an ahole keeps asking...but I avoid hand injuries. Never had a fight bite, now I suspect I never will. I remember Allen talking about his ...scary injury.

http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-in ... TUHxJ.dpbs

_________________
Freedom is never free!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 411
Lots to learn from boxing and as a karateka of twenty plus years id say do some.

at some point if your looking to round it all out there's a point to start seeing this as compliments rather than opposing , Uechi has great angles that feed directly into the arcs used in boxing , in fact everything does , doesn't take long to learn how to use that power and movement with different karate hand structures , about the only one id avoid is the seiken :lol: , but targeting and usage is the real topic then.

I honestly have moved away from the fist as im closing usually , I like palms and pointy things while crossing the bridge to elbows and knees etc.

I have broken knuckles fingers and thumbs and have never stopped, and dislocated a knuckle and popped it back in and kept going.

but I don't think its good advice and I paid the price of the damage even if it was afterwards, figure its up to the individual but I choose to limit the fist in my training , and condition the soft :wink: weapons.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 1:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
Wow Laird, you have certainly had your fair share of injuries... I think my worst injury was a case of skier's thumb (hyperextension of the thumb) that I got while I was working out (wasn't even martial arts)... that particular thumb would get sore and swollen for about 1 year. Aside from that Ive had some knee and toe injuries and bumps and bruises, cut lips .... So far nothing like Jon Jones' toe after that fight or the injuries that you describe from your past but I also haven't been training as long as you have.

Stryke - given that you have many years of fighting behind you, I want to ask about your preference for hitting with 'pointy things', do you generally favour 1 or 2 techniques (e.g. shoken & shuto) that you use regularly? Everything that I have heard and read recently seems to indicate that it's best to focus on a couple of techniques & perfect them rather than learning many different ones. Basically, to what extent do you practice and believe in this little nugget of wisdom:

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 411
Hey Mark , I think the value in that comment comes from doing something long enough to get the principle that transcends.

I work the neck a lot so bushikens and shutos primarily which is just either side of the hand, then some shokens and the cranes beak.

This and working out all the angles with palm heals for the punching.

I do use a closed fist though, Mt hardest shot is without doubt the hammer fist

But yes they all take work developing, but hand/grip strength and proper targeting go a long way


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 9:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 211
MarkNoble wrote:
Wow Laird, you have certainly had your fair share of injuries... I think my worst injury was a case of skier's thumb (hyperextension of the thumb) that I got while I was working out (wasn't even martial arts)... that particular thumb would get sore and swollen for about 1 year. Aside from that Ive had some knee and toe injuries and bumps and bruises, cut lips .... So far nothing like Jon Jones' toe after that fight or the injuries that you describe from your past but I also haven't been training as long as you have.

Stryke - given that you have many years of fighting behind you, I want to ask about your preference for hitting with 'pointy things', do you generally favour 1 or 2 techniques (e.g. shoken & shuto) that you use regularly? Everything that I have heard and read recently seems to indicate that it's best to focus on a couple of techniques & perfect them rather than learning many different ones. Basically, to what extent do you practice and believe in this little nugget of wisdom:

Image


This makes sense to me both from a psychology standpoint but also from what I experience regularly in a lot of aspects of training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hJveJ8Hp0

Good reason to keep the number of kata down to a minimum.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 411
The beauty of uechi it's how it distills

All the moves are variations rather than alternatives imho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 2:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30224
With a few exceptions, the prevailing view of master instructors is that the human body is not capable of ingraining a multitude of diversified training techniques, because it takes many years of study, endless repetitions and dedicated applications in some sort of engagement medium in order to get good at anyone of them; almost an impossibility given life's time constraint_and the limitations of human movement behavior.


The extensive studies by Bruce Siddle [Sharpening the Warrior's Edge] reflect that too much exposure to styles and techniques usually means you're skimming over the foundation and fogging the 'ingraining' of the principles that those techniques are based on…

…and that if your brain has been conditioned to explore too many choices and has no default/reactionary response deeply programmed in, it would be easy to freeze up because their ways of movement clash with each other…

…and that such attempts confuse your body and mind and make it more difficult to learn things to emerge correctly under the numbing stress of fighting for survival.

Similarly, as with _ the learning to use deadly weapons efficiently, the advice is that studying martial arts is not about how many different techniques you can pick from here and there.

Siddle states that the behavioral dimensions of human movement are very complex and that is the reason why it has remained the primary concern of scientists working in this subject matter.

He further states that this field has over a century of research which can assist instructors and students in understanding the pitfalls of technique overload complexities, response time and theories of applications.
Quote:
Some of the research findings in the field of motor skill behavior can help us explain why students will often fail to utilize their training under the stress of a defensive situation.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group