Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:45 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Here is one observation that is telling
Quote:
FWIW, I found this to be very true in the martial arts, too. At first, you're into learning more and more techniques, with fine gradations for each possible scenario. What I found was that after maybe 20 years of that, my trajectory reversed, and I gave up on a lot of techniques.


It is confusing to see the plethora of SD methods, techniques, and "arts" that are out there, each one claiming to be just what we need.
Over time it's down to a handful of simple, effective, relatively universal things.

I've trained in so many different martial arts over the last 25-30 years I would have to make a list to count them all. Some of them were very good, a couple were excellent, but most were just a rehash of the others and very impractical for realistic self-defense.

When I was in fights as a cop, I used a few core techniques I learned in almost every fight I had.

Don't get bogged down in the minutia, just learn the basics and practice those until they are instinctual and you will be well prepared to face whatever comes your way
.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 575
The classical way of learning a large amount of techniques, is that one techniques will have say three applications.You can see this in Aikido as an example, and also in related arts such as the old aiki jutsu styles, so one technique would be the same for a sword cut, a strike or a throw or a lock.........also the locks in aikido all start the same so it is easy to mix them up, Tai Chi is very similar in this regard.
From a purely practical,easy to learn method I don't think you can beat the old one two three of boxing, Jab, body punch ,hook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Any training we do and teach, in order to be reasonably effective, must be in accordance with physical abilities, physical limitations, agility, coordination, athleticism, natural ability, and instincts.

The hardest part of real training is to be able to recognize all this, in us, and in others.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 415
Van Canna wrote:
Any training we do and teach, in order to be reasonably effective, must be in accordance with physical abilities, physical limitations, agility, coordination, athleticism, natural ability, and instincts.

The hardest part of real training is to be able to recognize all this, in us, and in others.


Amen Van, and not to mention our mental emotional and philosophical outlook, and any operant conditioning.

I often think martial artists in regards to violence are a bit like race car drivers, they love the illusion of control over something that's really out of control, but the crash is always coming.


worse the ma then thinks they can get of the track on the road, ditch the safety gear and rules of mutual agreement and be in even more Controll......

The only thing we really control is what we develop in ourselves

when we talk about real training , we're not being real , training is by definition not real , what we are discussing is approaching more realistic training and it needs to be a constant evolution , everyone's reality is different , the flaw is always there , and we need to be aware of it.

this is a huge task especially for the teacher.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 575
Quote
"I've trained in so many different martial arts over the last 25-30 years I would have to make a list to count them all. Some of them were very good, a couple were excellent, but most were just a rehash of the others and very impractical for realistic self-defense."

Yeah so have I ,although it would be closer to 40 years. One of the things that ~I have noticed over time is that originally martial arts were taught to weaker people who used it as an edge against strength, or at least that was the way it was represented whereas now folks who do MA are into bodybuilding etc so it's strong guys learning stuff, but there seems to me an overemphasis on strength. There are highly skilled people still teaching skill over strength, but they are harder to find than ever. :cry:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:50 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Banff AB
I think in the 60's the marketing hype was all about skinny scrawny types kicking anyones ass. . Charles Atlas weightifting programs don't let the muscleman kick sand in your face, you can be bigger and stronger in 10 weeks etc etc. You know acheivement without work. Martial arts where peddaled the same way initially. It's BS!

I get people telling me not to use strength all the time when I'm using technque. It pisses me off. I just stop listening. I don'tmind being strong, if all else fails it helps.Think some students just need to eat some meat! Think some teachers should put the snake oil away! Why would you not use strength and technique?

_________________
Freedom is never free!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Right on Laird. And developing core strenght and muscle power is inherent to all activities, even more so in any martial arts system, in order for the techniques to work.

As you know, in Uechi, this core strength is developed through sanchin and the various implements, like the 'jars' free weights, etc., as the Okinawans do.

I think we have all seen students not built genetically strong who show up at the dojo looking for the 'holy Grail' overnight, without wanting to put in the time to develop a powerful body, if they don't already have one, to make the techniques work.

At times it might be best to tell the student to look at the 'sporting world' to see how certain athletes train to mate technique to strength.

'Blowing my Horn' a bit_ here is a photo of me after being chosen to be part of a National [rowing] crew when I was 16 years old.

Image

I think that a comparison of the demands of rowing and what goes into making a rower, with what makes a good martial artist_ have a symbiotic relationship from my own personal experience in competitive sports, including soccer.

From my perspective, the things that truly motivated me to return to the water time and time again had more to do with the intangibles, the feelings invoked when I felt graced with a moment of perfect swing, the sound of the boat and puddles moving through the water, a task that demands such precision, body power and dedication that I felt challenged by the unique opportunities of glimpsing all of my strengths and weaknesses and to grow from that.

Our coach was one of international fame, with knowledge of the efficient body mechanics as they relate to the physics of rowing along with common mistakes that are made and their impact on output applied to the boat as a system.

Supplementary strength training with weights was required of our crew as we were trained to explore our limitations in available body range of motion,
how muscular strength improvements would increase potential force output required over an extended period of time, such as in a grueling 2000 meters race.

Our coach's job was one of expanding an understanding of the mental preferences towards rowing and training along with learning ways to expand awareness to transform a mechanical collection of motions into an art form that exemplifies the grace, propelling power and efficiency possible between a body and a rowing shell.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 575
Quote
"I think in the 60's the marketing hype was all about skinny scrawny types kicking anyones ass. . Charles Atlas weightifting programs don't let the muscleman kick sand in your face, you can be bigger and stronger in 10 weeks etc etc. You know acheivement without work. Martial arts where peddaled the same way initially. It's BS!
I get people telling me not to use strength all the time when I'm using technque. It pisses me off. I just stop listening. I don'tmind being strong, if all else fails it helps.Think some students just need to eat some meat! Think some teachers should put the snake oil away! Why would you not use strength and technique?"

Well, I'm not a little guy and I used to get guys in the internal arts telling me to relax when they couldn't move me :lol: :lol: .but I'm not talking about that. Basically if I go to learn a martial art then I expect to learn something usefull, not something that I could make up on my own on a rainy afternoon or just plain physical exercise . I punch bags,do push ups lift weights , shadow box and it's very rarely that I go to a MA club and can't hold my own, just because I do that.....I want more, I want to be like one of those old Chinese guys who can swat the young fellas like flies, I don't want to be an old hasbeen telling tales of what I used to be..and that is getting more and more difficult for me..but there are people out there who aren't built like Swarzenenger who can fight.and it's those that I copy, like this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9UspkP_e1A

or this guy who I know has MS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HntJp31JiSc

It's being clever and confident/brave enough to have faith in your technique so that you can do it at any age....and there are moves that look magical that are not, they are just misunderstood, I've practised a couple, knocking somebody down with a shour, fighting blindfold etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Quote:
Basically if I go to learn a martial art then I expect to learn something usefull, not something that I could make up on my own on a rainy afternoon or just plain physical exercise .


True enough. Why would anyone want to go into a martial arts school and just learn to exercise.

I think it is all about choosing a bonafide, reputable style, to begin with, and one that promotes growth in all aspects of human body mechanics, including developing strength and general body hardening, such as we have in Uechi, through Sanchin, the use of implements, and the body, arms and legs conditioning from never ending impact.

I am with Laird that physical strength is a big plus when combined with good skills, and something to be cultivated for life.

As Laird says, when all else fails, and it might well happen in the chaos of combat_ strenght does indeed increase your chances of 'making it' _

I also came to Uechi with a big powerful body, honed through competitive sports, and settled on the Uechi style because it fit well with my views that power and skills went hand in hand when having to handle demands of stressful self protection.
Quote:
The Power of Uechi Ryu Karate_
By Damien Chambers

Uechi Ryu karate is an Okinawan karate style that relies on extreme power in its techniques. It is a karate system that is also a powerful system of self-defense. It is a unique style typified by the strength of its techniques, highly effective self-defense applications and dynamic strength building kata.

Uechi Ryu is also known for its rugged full-contact sparring. The distinctive demonstrations of its practitioners feature boards being shattering with toe kicks and 2X2s smashed over arms, shins and stomachs to show the level of conditioning achieved to perform these feats.

Uechi Ryu karate uses elements of the tiger, dragon and crane styles of Chinese kenpo. But its approach to self-defense focuses on muscular force and total body hardening as a defensive measure. The specialty techniques of the style include toe kicks and spear finger techniques.


I had also previously realized, through judo/jiu'jitsu training, that skills alone, without body power, got a student nowhere.

To this day, I try to continue to maintain a strong body with also gym training in weights and elliptical machine for aerobics, and so recommend to all my students, who are already 'power houses' _

This is the ideal martial artistImage

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:50 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Banff AB
Nothing wrong with looking for stuff that works Ray! :D Skill over strength , how about what works....if it's a multiple choice test I'd be picking 'D" all of the above! I know what your saying Ray, skills that are dependant on superior strength are not skill...I agree. But if your training for a fight folks train the body too!

Van rowing rocks for building strong folks. I had a partner that was a rower/weight lifter, his strength kept me honest. He rowed in France. Still rows today, lives for it!

The way strong folks make sure their technique is not strength dependant is we seek out folks stronger than us to train with. This is the acid test, and I find it fun to train with folks stronger than me or more skilled than me. If we don't challenge our selves we don't improve.

Old man in the park :mrgreen: .....I'll probably just shoot/stab folks and claim their age represented a disparity of force, therefore justifiable self defense. :?

Hope to stay physically strong far into the aging process. However, I have been preparing myself for when my body fails me, it happens to all of us at some point. This is when I will need my skills the most. All joking aside, I've spent the last decade getting real comfortable with all sorts of firearms for a reason. If I fail or the country fails those with me will be armed.

Yes if we train and work our bodies they will function longer. Reality is if we don't die early they at somepoint begin to fail. This is when your Ryu must be sound because this is when you will be targeted. When your balance and strength are waining your an easy mark, are you ready for that type of battle? Can we defeat the EBG with technique and no strength or balance?

I understand what you seek Ray, I have come to the conclusion that at some point the physical will not be available and have developed a dirty little tool box. Geezer ryu in my mind is rather weapons based. Can't beat them with my cane because I'll fall over. Well when I get there maybe I can squeeze off a few rounds. And I'm not worried about bank colapse, I've invested in the currency of lead.

_________________
Freedom is never free!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm
Posts: 94
What do you guys practice for hand strength? The Okinawan jar essentially works like a farmer's walk correct?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Good post, Laird.

I seem to recall that years back_ we had a similar discussion on this subject including Rick Wilson and Marcus, who might wish to chime in with their thoughts.

For me the essence of it all is that if any of our training includes karate_ then we are practicing a 'striking art' _

As such, any striking art requires 'explosive force' to be consistently efficient.

How much damage a blow does to the human body is a function of many variables; the power of the blow, the hardness of the striking surface, the area striking surface, the size of the victim (i.e. mass), the location of the strike, the relative state of preparedness of the victim, the angle of the blow, the vulnerability of the target area, the mind state of the person, the adrenaline 'barrier' etc.

For example, those two clips Ray posted, don't impress me much as I know that there are people out there who will shrug off those shots because of their massive build and effects of the 'dump' in a confrontation…unless delivered with explosive force

...and strength is what propels explosive force since all movements START at >Slow velocities or from a stationary position _ and strength Is required to initiate the movement along a velocity line of direction.

The more the strenght propelling a strike_ the higher the velocity enclosing the propelling strenght in motion, resulting in more explosive force, or stopping power.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/imp ... ength.html

Quote:
It has been proven that athletic performance depends either directly or indirectly on qualities of muscular strength. The primary function of the 600+ muscles in the body is to contract in order to cause movement in body parts. Only muscle can cause movement. The stronger your muscles and the more forceful the contractions are in relationship to your own bodyweight, the faster you will run, the higher you will jump, the further you will throw, and the harder you will hit. It's that simple! Not to mention, having a basis of muscular strength is important to avoid injury.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Quote:
Maximum strength is the backbone upon which all other strength qualities lie. You'll hear me talk a lot about being fast and the importance of speed, power, reactive ability etc. All of these qualities of strength are very important, but truthfully, unless you have enough raw horsepower in your engine you won't be going anywhere or doing anything in a hurry! In this case you can think of horsepower and maximum strength as being synonymous.

While only powerlifters need to maximize and demonstrate maximum strength in competition, all athletes need to develop maximum strength as a foundation for other such as explosive strength, reactive strength, strength endurance, agility, and others. For this reason, absolute muscular strength must first be brought to optimal levels and simultaneously blended into strength that you can use for your sport, or "functional" strength.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30335
Quote:
Well, if you increase your strength, you also increase the amount of force you can generate. All things being equal the more force you can apply in a movement (each foot contact in a sprint, amount of force you apply when you jump, throw, etc); the faster you'll move, the higher you'll jump, the further you'll throw etc.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group