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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:55 pm 
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I know for a fact that if you hit someone even lightly in the throat that they will go down gagging, same as a blow to the plexus also I've knocked people out with very light glancing blows. there is a real science in hitting that is not based on brute power. I liked those guys, especially the older fella because he could still move quick, and quick is where it's at. I have seen lots of old guys who have lost that.
I think that the last thing that goes is your physical strength. Flexibility and stamina are the first to go. In my book it doesn't matter how powerful you are if you can't move quick then you've had it. Too many folks think that attackers will move as slowly as they do, they won't!!


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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Quote:
I know for a fact that if you hit someone even lightly in the throat that they will go down gagging, same as a blow to the plexus also I've knocked people out with very light glancing blows. there is a real science in hitting that is not based on brute power.


It depends on who you are hitting, Ray…and the particular vulnerability of the person at the moment. I have hit opponents in the tournaments with shutos to the neck and they didn't go down, when I thought they should have.

I have hit opponents with drilling spinning back kicks square in the solar plexus that knocked them down, but did they not go out, coming back up to continue the match.

It is not brute power, we are talking about_ the discussion is about the package of component aspects of training…mating skills, with explosive force, which is not the same as brute power.

Quote:
In my book it doesn't matter how powerful you are if you can't move quick then you've had it. Too many folks think that attackers will move as slowly as they do, they won't!!


I agree, reason why I personally train aerobics on the elliptical, and go heavy on tenshin and 'off the X' training with my students.

But then Laird is right on with his comments that the time comes when curling your index finger is the most effective, fastest, most skillful movement, in a survival situation…and that's always in reserve.

You study Uechi Ryu well, deep and long, you develop all the aspects you refer to in a natural way.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:34 am 
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Technique should be as efficient as possible requiring as little force as possible.

Strength is a compliment, and done properly is the single most general applicable skill

Strength training is the single best thing you can do for your health a you age

And done sensibly with care can help almost anyone wellness.

as long term martial artists we should understand yin and yang what are compliments and what are opposites

Hard and soft are compliments


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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Cultivating strength, and more importantly, performing striking techniques with explosive force, as Laird does, out of a striking art such as Uechi that is founded on explosive power_ is really a no brainer.

Some 'reality' people still amaze me at times, for not understanding what can happen to them.

To start with:

Whether defending yourself, trying to rescue a drowning person, or handling some other crisis, you may find yourself mentally and physically drained very quickly.

So think of what training you need to try to cope with that.

Secondly_ survival is often determined in a matter of seconds; much faster than most people would ever expect_ and thinking you will be able to strike the right targets the right way_ is nothing but an illusion.

People are built different enough that it is almost impossible to predict how much damage they can take before succumbing.

Explosive force makes the difference, because it programs the 'equalizer' solution. Laird knows this very well indeed, so those people who criticize him for using too much power need an education in street fighting/survival concepts.

What will also happen to people, even the skilled ones, in any confrontation_ could well be finding themselves in a very disadvantaged position, something lots of martial artists are in denial of...taken as they are with their superior assumptions of beating someone up.

Being able to apply high levels of strength from a very disadvantaged position is a vital skill to develop.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Well As I've said Van I'm not little...if you look at some of the Uechi masters like Gushi, Toyama or Tomoyose then I'm a lot bigger and stronger than any of them, heck I could pick one of them up, and I do punch powerfully. so if it's just force against force then they would have a real problem, and I know a lot of friends that I train with who are a heckuvalot bigger than I am.
Look at this video of the guys that I used to train with. The guy punching the bag first is the sifu he is of small stature, but look at the really big guy.the Sifu beats him in sparring freestyle


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeFzLUWSC_4

now you may meet somebody like that, and honestly power may not be enough, you will need to be more skilled in some aspect, you will need to give him a fight he doesn't want.


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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Ray,

If you re-read what I have written many times before, I never said skill is useless.

And giving someone a fight he doesn't want has been the theme of my forum for years on end.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:53 am 
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Quote:
Well As I've said Van I'm not little...if you look at some of the Uechi masters like Gushi, Toyama or Tomoyose then I'm a lot bigger and stronger than any of them, heck I could pick one of them up


size , strength , power all different but all related , then comes the question stronger at what?

functional strength is the measure , general physical preparedness built into specific physical preparedness is clearly the job of any martial art , sophistication of the skillset is limited to the base attributes , however strength as a skill is efficiency itself and requires adaptation of the neurological and technique as much as the physical.

However it is still strength/power and adaptation.

To many confuse working out with training , are you developing attributes or just grinding and sweating, where is the sophistication and adaptation.

One of Vans recent posts on Sanchin was really good , stating how it shows ones physical ability's and limitations, Sanchin almost as a diagnosis, and prescription in one , how the trained eye of an instructor with real understanding , can build apon the diagnosis , and this clearly demonstrates why each sanchin is different , and ever on-going , as the efficiency and alignment is constantly improved.

combined with strengthening and on-going compensation , the Uechi athlete can be built , the line between what's considered internal and external blurs.

Tai chi done well is a great example of internal strength, some of the strongest stances I've seen are from Tai chi , but it is clearly functional mobile and as real strength so is it not external.....

semantics are limiting...

whether you come from a traditional or sports science background the information is out there and fairly universal but its a complex subject


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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:26 am 
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Good post, Marcus.

Simple, yet complex at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:08 pm 
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MarkNoble wrote:
What do you guys practice for hand strength? The Okinawan jar essentially works like a farmer's walk correct?
The jars are different that the farmers walk as the grip is different. The jar is held with the tips of the fingers and the boshiken knuckle. You train grip strength and striking implement at the same time.

Image


Kata also trains qrip strength in the grab squeeze and pull sequences. Much ripping and tearing in Uechi so grip strength is important.

Finger tip push ups are good. Some do them on the thumb knuckle and index finger only.
Hitting the heavy bag increases forearm strength/wrist/hand strength. Working chiisen or swinging sledge hammers work grip strength.

Kote kitae (arm pounding) increases grip strength.

Personally I mostly hit the makiwara and swing club bells. (I do not punch the makiwara I condition my forearms,elbows, boshiken and my shins on it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owDJGnXGnxY


Image

It's the sequences that the weight is held motionless that really targets the grip. Lots of little miro adjustments your constantly struggling to keep it steady. It's much like what happens when you work weights on a Swiss ball you target the muscle group instead of just working one in isolation.

Just about any weight on a long lever will work. Push the weight up into torch or flag position and you can really work the rotor cuff group. Great joint training! We initially started this sort of work to reduce the risk of joint injury in our ground work. Harder to submit, stronger and more range of motion in the joints was the goal. I was surprised to get such a huge benefit to the grip as well!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFEI6PFuj2c

~Laird

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:55 pm 
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Great post, Laird, and it complements what Stryke wrote on functionality.


Stryke wrote
Quote:
size , strength , power all different but all related , then comes the question stronger at what?
functional strength is the measure


" Functional strength" being the two perfect buzz words.

Ray wrote
Quote:
Well As I've said Van I'm not little...if you look at some of the Uechi masters like Gushi, Toyama or Tomoyose then I'm a lot bigger and stronger than any of them, heck I could pick one of them up


While I can understand, and in part agree with Ray, I look deeper into the Uechi 'functionality' with these personal observations:

The three of us, Marcus, Laird, and I_ as big strong guys, we could also individually 'pick up' those masters…if we could…that is.

By why could we not? Well, in order to pick them up we would have to charge them, put our hands on them, then lift them or push them.

Here is a picture of Master Kanei Uechi_ Imageshowing the strength functionality of a Uechi trained body. What do I mean by that?

More specifically_ Master Uechi, as well as Gushi, Toyama and Tomoyose senseis_ …quite aside from their excellent skills_ had cultivated the unique functional body strength that turned their natural weapons_ hands, fingers, shokens, boshikens_ legs, feet, and toes_ into penetrating ' tips of arrows' _ assimilated into their striking skills _plus their bodies were hardened in ways we cannot imagine.

More to the point …I witnessed Tomoyose sensei in Boston once putting a 'big wise guy' in his place when he tapped this guy's full force punch with a boshiken on the way in…like a nail entering the guy's hand.

He also split a big red apple by placing his two thumbs at the center of the core and snapping it in half.

And you wouldn't want to get 'nailed' by a front kick [sokusen] as you 'force on force' charge any of them.

The masters' hands are like the talons of eagles. Nakahodo sensei can grab any part of your body and make you scream with pain.

Trying to go just force on force on these gentlemen would be like an inflated balloon charging a stick with a sharp nail on its front.

They may be small but so is the tip of a 'stationary' spear as you charge it.

So again, we are looking at the 'functional strength' you have described Stryke.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:00 pm 
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i remember Buzz Durkin telling me about the hand strength of one of the Okinawan teachers ( i cant remember which one sorry) but this teacher grabbed Buzz by the pectoral muscle. he was actually able to get his fingers behind the muscle and pulled it out away from the chest quite far then let it snap back into place. Buzz said it was not something he ever wanted to expericence again.

when i was a young teen i was that skinny kid 110 pounds. i bought into the skill to "replace" strength idea. it doesnt work that way, at least not for me. lucky for me i met my Uechi teacher T Rose. one of the strongest Uechi people i ever met. i think the key here is not to confuse strength with power. strength is only a component of power. while strength is needed in general terms for fighting, power is needed in striking. i have had a few students that went to the gym twice a day and looked huge but there was no power. they had mass but could not convert that to power. i think any training for fighting should be sport specific, or fight specific. huge fore arms can colapse with week wrists. big hand stikes are facilitated by expolsive thighs. i think of the human body as one big interconnected machine. i dont want week links. you can actually damage yourself by having power in the action but having a week striking weapon.
the skill is when you can get all the machanics to work at the optimal level. that includes your eyes, reaction time, body timing, spacial awareness and so on.

my preferance now is using other weapons and actions rather than a closed fist. my belife is that a true combat system begins with a weapon and the system should evolve and revolve around that. i feel that many "martial arts" are not true martial, meaning military, but rather very old fighting sport derivitives. thus chinese boxing, not chinese military technique. not dissing anyone or any system here im just saying i prefer a total system that starts with weapons and looks to hand to hand as a component of that system. i think many people are trying to reverse engineer a sport to a fighting art. for me personally when i look at it from this perspective the closed fist doesnt fit so well.


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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Good post Hoshin and thanks for chiming in
Quote:
big hand stikes are facilitated by expolsive thighs. i think of the human body as one big interconnected machine. i dont want week links. you can actually damage yourself by having power in the action but having a week striking weapon.
the skill is when you can get all the machanics to work at the optimal level. that includes your eyes, reaction time, body timing, spacial awareness and so on.


A good example of that is the sport specific training and conditioning I underwent as an attacking soccer striker here in this photo_
Image and having brought that body to Uechi...it had to undergo a different force 'specific' training.

You do well not to involve your fists in training. The open hand and its pointed weapons is more effective and safer.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Hoshin
Quote:
i think the key here is not to confuse strength with power. strength is only a component of power. while strength is needed in general terms for fighting, power is needed in striking.


Correct, and explosive power at that, Such as what Tracy Rose can generate. Say hello to him for me if you see him.

And also the kind of strength the Uechi masters have in their bodies and hands...well...they might let you pick them up while they crush your wind pipe with two fingers.

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Here is real skill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-fV2EfSa8c

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 Post subject: Re: Real Training
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Good thread

lots of creative ways to strengthen , but like technique I believe in gross motor to fine motor progression

love the clubbells and need to import some

I work primarily with kettlebells and bodyweight these days , but intersperse with some regular barbell work and Olympic style lifting.

some education and coaching and then get creative , learn about the body and balancing the excercises and compensations and enjoy your potential.

finger loops are fun work , I built up to shoken pullups at one stage

http://store.getstrength.com/getstrengt ... ll-finger/

As I get older Im actually getting better at training , and my focus is more the physical as its easier and I get better return IMHO for my health and wellbeing , and I do not consider the physical training as a compliment to my martial arts but an integral part of the tradition.


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