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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:06 pm 
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"Bad guys come in all sizes, shapes and forms...they need not be ex cons etc."

that is very true, but you do get folks who do weights and especially contact sports turning to crime........not everybody mind :)
Sometimes you'll see a silly little fat guy and you'll find out he is a big drugs dealer, othertimes he will match your stereotypical image of a drugs dealer.....I always advocate awerness because you just do not know .the little skinny runt maybe a killler


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:44 pm 
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I want to make it clear my intent is not to bash anyone but to rather question everything with the hope of gaining some clarity on the topic. It only takes one small comment from someone to spark a new idea and totally change the way you see the world.
Let me throw this out there that my personal motivation is that I am planning on teaching again soon and at this point I want to completely tear down everything that I know and put all the pieces back together in a modern way. My understanding of fighting has changed and I want what I teach to reflect that. If I am bashing anyone, it is myself, a form of self flagellation (that means whipping yourself not passing gas if you weren’t sure. lol ).
I stated before my 5 categories. The reality is that fighting cannot be divided into neat little pieces but for teaching it helps define a class so that on Monday we can do stand up Tuesday can be street weapons and so on. I envision the student working in a gym style setting on the specific category for the night but with the ability to pick and choose what in particular he needs to learn. On the other thread the word customization was used, I like that word.

When it comes to weapons training I have a moral dilemma. Weapons training is no joke. We are really talking about taking a life in most cases. We all need training partners so I would like to include it. But anyone who has had a school knows there are certain people who walk thru the door we just don’t want. Imagine you have a school and someone like the Boston bomber kid walks in wanting to learn knife fighting. You won’t know he is a mass killer so you teach him. Then you find out after a tragedy happens. I am not sure how to handle this.
As a side note I will say I am very aware and maybe hyper sensitive to this because while I was the head instructor at a school where one of the things I taught was swordsmanship I had a student who during his enrollment killed both his parents with an ax. This may be an extreme case but teaching lethal techniques always will put you at risk of law suits, which I have also seen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Hoshin, Is your name John? and are you a leo?.........if so I know your reservations .it is very hard when you have Data that other folks don't have, when you know the good and the bad and they don't :cry: :cry: ..and in my case they think I'm talking schiett...but as somebody who has done ma for many years I can do soft stuff that works, aikido locks and the like ( thumb locks are a must for police work).but identifying the threat. knowing how you will react..teaching that to a newb is a totally different thing.......and of course, you can offend everyone in the world without knowing why when you speak your mind..I do this consistently :oops:
but as to you teachng from what you have said I think you will be an excellent teacher...when you question yourself and the "experts" ..well that's a learning process


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:12 pm 
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"I think you will be an excellent teacher", thank you for the kind words but just to clarify i began teaching in 1987. i just meant i was starting something new.
as to the the John comment, my name is steve. so i guess im not who your thinking of


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:49 am 
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.
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As a side note I will say I am very aware and maybe hyper sensitive to this because while I was the head instructor at a school where one of the things I taught was swordsmanship I had a student who during his enrollment killed both his parents with an ax. This may be an extreme case but teaching lethal techniques always will put you at risk of law suits, which I have also seen.


Pretty awful experience, Steve, sorry to hear.
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... an instructor may be held liable for having entrusted a student with ‘an extremely dangerous instrumentality’. "[W]hen an instrumentality passes from the control of a person, his responsibility for injuries inflicted by it ceases. However, when an injury is caused by an exceptionally dangerous instrumentality, or one which may be dangerous if improperly used, a former owner or possessor may ... be charged with responsibility for [its] use...." The implications for instructors who teach potentially lethal techniques are clear.


Finally, an instructor may be liable for harm to the student or other parties as a result of negligent instruction. Anyone who holds himself out as an expert capable of giving instruction is expected to conform to the standards of his professional community.

Thus, any instructor who, by his own negligence, fails to provide, teach and require adequate safe-guards and supervision, may be liable for any resulting injury.
Hobart

Who is an expert? This is a pointed question especially from a legal viewpoint that may have consequences for any of us who teach
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The specific factors explicated by the Court are (1) whether the expert's technique or theory can be or has been tested—that is, whether the expert's theory can be challenged in some objective sense, or whether it is instead simply a subjective, conclusory approach that cannot reasonably be assessed for reliability; (2) whether the technique or theory has been subject to peer review and publication; (3) the known or potential rate of error of the technique or theory when applied; (4) the existence and maintenance of standards and controls; and (5) whether the technique or theory has been generally accepted in the scientific community.


We may or may not hold ourselves as 'experts' in any given field…but the court may well see us as one in dire litigation cases.

Most of the people who will so be 'seen' are the ones who are published, have a large following, and enjoy peer respect.

Keep in mind that in any criminal court proceedings, a prosecutor will leave no stone unturned in his attempts to make us look like a purveyors of violence, by what we did, given our knowledge background and what we personally own, in addition to what we write on public forums to make ourselves appear tough, experienced and knowledgeable in the field of 'violence'.

Same in a civil action, where a plaintiff's attorney will try to make you appear liable for any real or imagined tortuous act.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Okay boys and girls here is the harsh truth about the real world – the majority of people do not want to do real self defence training they want the appearance and the accessories of it.

And I am not bashing anyone here this is just the truth of it.

The groups of people involved in MA:

1) Those who want the community of a school. They like the physical workouts. The like the adrenaline of hard pressed prearranged drills. They like the recognition of achievement through ranking. They like the self confidence it gives them. They like the appearance of self defence training.

2) The next group is similar to the first only they want more of the self defence aspect and like to be exposed to the messy training that involves. But still the community etc is the biggest draw although they want a little more than the appearance of self defence.

3) Somewhere in group 1 and 2 is the non-contact tournament crowd who are athletic and talented and love hard physical training and the competition.

4) Then there are the MMA crowd who like the banging and a fight and the competition.

5) The last group wants self defence they don’t mind it getting messy and don’t mind a blackened eye or a bloody nose or fat lip to do it.

6) A sixth group would be very hard core self defence folk who need it to survive their employment.

I believe most people like the community of a school and that is why group 1 is the majority of people and the highest percentage market for successful commercial schools..

And they have every right to like what they like.

Parents like the discipline and self worth schools give their kids.

Many have a good anti-bullying portion now which is so valuable.

So there are lots of good things.

But real self defence takes a different approach and the market for it is much smaller.

There is a market for those schools that believe in exposing their students to other things and are run by instructors worth the self confidence to allow that exposure.

These schools bring in people to do seminars and add in some real self defence training.

These schools allow exploration by their students and in particular the seniors who have trained for some time. They have the self confidence not to be afraid that if their students see something different they will leave.

In fact I think by exposing their students to real self defence training they raise the retention rate because the students can see where what they are learning in the school crosses over.

This is not usually group 1 though, this is usually group 2, 5 and 6.

Now I am saying real self defence and that may offend some so please exchange it for whatever words you feel are best for this thread.

Bu the hard core truth is the majority are not looking for the down and dirty CQC that is self defence they are in it for community, a physical workout and progressive recognition through ranking.

Everyone trains for the reasons they train and everyone is right, but this is also why TMA may not have the self defence is was created with any longer.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Rick you missed out the " Esoterics" :lol: Chimeisters and no touch knockout experts.as well as the believers in the mystic kata, which you just keep on doing, nobody explains it to you, but somehow, one day you will be unbeatable in a fight :lol: ,


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:45 pm 
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thank you rick for you post, something i have been saying for a long time now is that most people want the image. you put it very nicely. i remember working with a guy that took classes in a sport dominated system, the class was a parent child class he took with his 10 yo daughter. one time i was gazing out the window and saw him doing kata moves while on his way to his car. he was very obviously hoping someone would see him. probably in hopes that people would say to him..oh your a black belt i guess i wont mess with you.. this is not always a bad thing most people would like a kind of recognition for the time and work they put into something but being effective is something all together different. this image driven motivation is why MMA is very popular now. it feels dangerous and real. no fu fu dust magic but at the same time it is realitivly safe.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:49 pm 
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there is another factor that people don't often comment upon. My last teacher said that when he saw his Thai boxing teacher move, that he wanted to move like that, and then when he saw his Wing chun teacher move he wanted be be able to do that as well.I was the same when I saw Aikido


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Ray, i think the mystic kata would not be a group in ricks list but rather a symptom of the self delusion people need to feel good about what they are doing. it is easy to fool the willing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:31 pm 
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I was thinking of some of my Tai Chi experiences when I wrote that


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Good thread!

I'm off this weekend so I've got some time to put some thoughts out in cyber space.

Disclaimer #1.) I'm no expert...just someone who tinkers.

Think that's the definition of the traditional martial artist, people who tinker with violence, play with it, explore it, they are martial artists.

The people who study systems I'd call customers.

People who teach systems can be both. But some assembly is required; much has been lost in translation and transmission of systems. You have to put yourself in positions of disadvantage and work your way thru it if you are going to progress. Fights start from disadvantage that's where training must begin!


Disclaimer #2 All things being equal the bigger stronger dude will win.

No silver bullets no magic potions or systems. We must do the work, do the assembly, batteries are not included either, get strong if your going to try and hurt those that intend you harm.

So how do you train, how do you assemble stuff so you can prevail against better fighter’s stronger opponents etc.?

Disclaimer # 3 You don't have to accept the range or the battlefield that is offered.

Learn to fight at all ranges there is no range except in predetermined sports duels.

This brings us to Steve's excellent post!

How do we make "our ryu"...Our Ryu....how do we make it effective?

HOW DO WE GO PRIMAL?

Disclaimer #4 I see myself as a TMA and for some reason modern programming has not nurtured my ability to go primal violent when violence is required. I have little difficulty being violent. From what I see today this is not the norm.

I likes Steve's list, but not keen on system, system ,system, because it creates the same ich ni san chi pauses that robot ryu does. This is not a diss it's an observation, learning to strike in a sport specific method, throw in a sport specific method ,ground fight in a sport specific method will impose the limitations of skill imposed by the sport upon you. Ranges must be fluid and not restricted by rules.

So I'll post my own list of skills required to utilize when it’s time to go primal and be effective in eliminating a threat!

1)Smashing/damaging flesh!

This is a non range specific discipline. it can be accomplished with long range projectile or impact weapons like guns or sticks , it can be accomplished with intermediate striking weapons like hands & feet or shins & forearms or knees & elbows...or head butts, or impact by being guided into to the surrounding structure.

Ripping tearing and twisting of flesh

This is just a sub group of smashing flesh, just another way to get the job done.

These attacks on the flesh cause bleeding, bruising and pain, this may cause the uncommitted to stand down, pain is always useful in guiding the opponent in a direction you wish them to go. Striking flesh is more about sorting out the pecking order. Beating facial flesh mores so as it leaves a visual message for the rest of the apes to consider.

Smashing flesh is mostly the art of establishing dominance within the group. In life threatening engagements it is a poor card to play. However some outcomes of flesh smashing result in significantly more effective collateral damage than crushed bleeding muscle, torn skin etc. Guess it’s time to identify and discuss the other skills/goals to be used in our response to violence.

2) Neurological shut down.
3) Joint destruction and skeletal damage.
4) Cardiac pulmonary interruption/damage.
5) Organ failure septic shock.

T.B.C. , more later.

Laird

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Oh no Laird now were discussing violence :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:20 pm 
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Jorvick
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as well as the believers in the mystic kata, which you just keep on doing, nobody explains it to you, but somehow, one day you will be unbeatable in a fight :lol:


SOS, Ray, right?

I have a former boxer in my classes who was trained by the famous Petronelli, and he was required to practice much shadow boxing.

Now here is a Petronelli trained boxer who also just got promoted to shodan
and he loves Uechi kata, as he feels it is critical in his progression. He is also in MMA.

Now why would such a fighter love kata?

And why do boxers shadow box?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowboxing

http://www.myboxingcoach.com/shadow-boxing/

As Bill posted, here we have a view
Quote:
Using this chess analogy to describe why boxers use shadow boxing might seem odd, but it’s as good an analogy as I can produce. Shadow boxing trains the mind, it enables free-thinking and allows the creation of any scenario possible. In fact, the strength and effectiveness of shadow boxing is based upon the absence of a physical opponent.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Now for my views:

The best martial arts masters will say that in a self defense situation, what we will do, will not much resemble our kata. Why is that?

The purpose of kata is to help to organize martial thinking,if you will.

In order for a student to experience the benefits of a well respected system, he needs to go deep into it in ways that not many people are willing to.

The complete MA package includes kata. It also includes drills, conditioning, sparring, bunkai, and more. Lose any one and you have a less-than-complete art.

I have argued before that... as with all aspects of Martial Arts training it is the collective knowledge of a Martial Art that makes it effective and not a singular aspect.

What does kata do for me ?

It develops basic technique and improves power and focus speed and timing`… it helps me gain strength, breathing power, center awareness, focus and range of my 'body parts' if you will... through a focused 'meditative' workout, which is a critical key.

As to 'fighting'...what do we mean by it?

I don't recall ever consciously using a 'kata move' in a tournament round, though I'm sure I have included some concept techniques polished in kata, once, specifically when up against a mean fighter from the southwest at Madison Square Garden's 'All American' Championships.

I caught his front flying kick with a move out of Seichin kata, that sent him up in the air and down hard on his back, where he remained _unable to continue.

Now why sparring and tournaments?

We have had this discussion before:

A sport, right? Yeah right, one of my many competitive sports over time.

What about it?

In a self defense situation there will be the hard wired fear response_

We must learn to control it_

Here is a connection that most people miss:

Fear is both a physiological challenge and a psychological one. Anything competitive — like sports events, war, or being compared by judges or spectators with other competitors _ inspires the mobilization of personal resources to succeed.

Sporting competition provides the arena in which to explore pride, disappointment, determination, even defeat.

Sports can allow athletes to learn about themselves in ways never imagined, but one needs to step up to the plate.

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Van


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