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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:47 pm 
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!"I will say one thing, Ray. The technique you found in this system - a cousin of Kanbun's style - is the same general technique. But he'd never be able to do what I do (with the hiraken or his Ginger Fist), because he's doing the hand slightly different. It's as if Kanbun's teacher picked up what this style was doing and broadened the applications. He combined a striking and a grappling style and came up with a set of movements in the three forms that spoke to both."


that may well be the case, I found in Wing chun people who did meaningless katas that had no relevance to what they did......and folks, who when they fought looked like they were doing their katas :lol: ......and I've seem this in a lot of Southern stykes. I thnk that is a rule of thumb, if it does not look like you are doing your kata when you fight/spar then you are either not doing a style, or your style has lost it's way


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:14 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
I found in Wing chun people who did meaningless katas that had no relevance to what they did......and folks, who when they fought looked like they were doing their katas :lol: ......and I've seem this in a lot of Southern stykes. I thnk that is a rule of thumb, if it does not look like you are doing your kata when you fight/spar then you are either not doing a style, or your style has lost it's way


From Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Successful People.

Quote:
Habit 2: Begin with the End in Mind

...

Habit 2 is based on imagination--the ability to envision in your mind what you cannot at present see with your eyes. It is based on the principle that all things are created twice. There is a mental (first) creation, and a physical (second) creation. The physical creation follows the mental, just as a building follows a blueprint. If you don't make a conscious effort to visualize who you are and what you want in life, then you empower other people and circumstances to shape you and your life by default. It's about connecting again with your own uniqueness and then defining the personal, moral, and ethical guidelines within which you can most happily express and fulfill yourself. Begin with the End in Mind means to begin each day, task, or project with a clear vision of your desired direction and destination, and then continue by flexing your proactive muscles to make things happen.

The problem you articulate, Ray, comes about when people who practice their art don't have a clear vision of how it should be effective and what they should be striving for.

Note in particular the part quoted above about allowing others to shape who you are and what you want in life. By following Covey's advice, we Uechika have the confidence to ignore those who cry "But... But... That's not Uechi!!!" ;-)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Bill
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The problem you articulate, Ray, comes about when people who practice their art don't have a clear vision of how it should be effective and what they should be striving for.


This discussion about kata comes up often here and on my forum, Ray. I agree with Bill.

I have a former boxer in my classes who was trained by the famous Petronelli, and he was required to practice much shadow boxing.

Now here is a Petronelli trained boxer who also just got promoted to shodan
and he loves Uechi kata, as he feels it is critical in his progression. He is also in MMA.

Now why would such a fighter love kata?

And why do boxers shadow box?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowboxing

http://www.myboxingcoach.com/shadow-boxing/

As Bill posted, here we have a view
Quote:
Using this chess analogy to describe why boxers use shadow boxing might seem odd, but it’s as good an analogy as I can produce. Shadow boxing trains the mind, it enables free-thinking and allows the creation of any scenario possible. In fact, the strength and effectiveness of shadow boxing is based upon the absence of a physical opponent.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Now for my views:

The best martial arts masters will say that in a self defense situation, what we will do, will not much resemble our kata. Why is that?

The purpose of kata is to help to organize martial thinking,if you will.

In order for a student to experience the benefits of a well respected system, he needs to go deep into it in ways that not many people are willing to.

The complete MA package includes kata. It also includes drills, conditioning, sparring, bunkai, and more. Lose any one and you have a less-than-complete art.

I have argued before that... as with all aspects of Martial Arts training it is the collective knowledge of a Martial Art that makes it effective and not a singular aspect.

What does kata do for me ?

It develops basic technique and improves power and focus speed and timing`… it helps me gain strength, breathing power, center awareness, focus and range of my 'body parts' if you will... through a focused 'meditative' workout, which is a critical key.

As to 'fighting'...what do we mean by it?

I don't recall ever consciously using a 'kata move' in a tournament round, though I'm sure I have included some concept techniques polished in kata, once, specifically when up against a mean fighter from the southwest at Madison Square Garden's 'All American' Championships.

I caught his front flying kick with a move out of Seichin kata, that sent him up in the air and down hard on his back, where he remained _unable to continue.

Now why sparring and tournaments?

We have had this discussion before:

A sport, right? Yeah right, one of my many competitive sports over time.

What about it?

In a self defense situation there will be the hard wired fear response_

We must learn to control it_

Here is a connection that most people miss:

Fear is both a physiological challenge and a psychological one. Anything competitive — like sports events, war, or being compared by judges or spectators with other competitors _ inspires the mobilization of personal resources to succeed.

Sporting competition provides the arena in which to explore pride, disappointment, determination, even defeat.

Sports can allow athletes to learn about themselves in ways never imagined, but one needs to step up to the plate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Van
look at this guy an old teacher of mine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeFzLUWSC_4

you see him sparring, and it looks like Wing chun,it doesn't look like anything else, and you can clearly see the influence of the forms, although forms are only a part of Wing chun ( some would say a minor part)

It doesn't look like Thai boxing, yet what if I told you that this guy was a champion thai Boxer in one of the most respected Gyms in the country?
but he is using wing chun, there are many other examples of this look at these guys.

look at these guys from Henry Su's Mantis club

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlInJFHw5mQ again it only looks like Mantis , it doesn't look like the wing chun before

and look at this Pak Mei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlkpAOzyMo

Again different.no vanilla kung fu here.....................these styles are different, you can see that, and their kata are different.that's entirely my point


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:03 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
Van
look at this guy an old teacher of mine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeFzLUWSC_4

you see him sparring, and it looks like Wing chun,it doesn't look like anything else, and you can clearly see the influence of the forms, although forms are only a part of Wing chun ( some would say a minor part)

It doesn't look like Thai boxing, yet what if I told you that this guy was a champion thai Boxer in one of the most respected Gyms in the country?
but he is using wing chun, there are many other examples of this look at these guys.

look at these guys from Henry Su's Mantis club

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlInJFHw5mQ again it only looks like Mantis , it doesn't look like the wing chun before

and look at this Pak Mei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlkpAOzyMo

Again different.no vanilla kung fu here.....................these styles are different, you can see that, and their kata are different.that's entirely my point

Ray:

First... this is Wing Chun teachers working with Wing Chun students, mantis practitioners working with other junior mantis practitioners (and repeated clips of the same board breaks over and over), and white eyebrow students doing classroom sparring with other white eyebrow students. In other words...

  • These are ALL highly artificial classroom situations, void of substantive stress.
    ...
  • They're working with cooperative students, or fellow practitioners of the same style in very limited-rules situations. In other words, it's kind of like kissing your sister. No romance or penetration involved. Not even dinner and a movie.
    ...
  • There are no (zero) HAPV involved.

I particularly love the Wing Chun work. But for the record, I borrow a lot from Wing Chun. I learned Sil lim tao 35 years ago and borrowed ideas from it (and their partner work) to create my own Uechi Ryu hojoundo bunkai. Why? I had no desire to rehash the EXTREMELY limited classroom material put together by Okinawans as their contribution to Kanbun Uechi's art. I didn't *want* to look like them; I wanted to draw out the Southern Chinese influence in what is currently an art based in Okinawa. That's what artists do - they express and interpret. If all you can do is parrot, then the "art" isn't yours.

But.. but... that's not Uechi, right? Hmm... I submitted my material as a partial requirement for being awarded a renshi in Uechi Ryu. No objections from George, Tomoyose Sensei, or any other Uechi Ryu master. They kind of liked it.

What you shared is some really cool stuff, but... That's not fighting. That's not self-defense. It's lots of good material and a few really good martial artists.

For the record, I can believe the first guy does Muay Thai. I see he's got off-the-written-script talent. His movement screams it. Just sayin...

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:10 pm 
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The best kata :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Well Wing chun changes all the time, you have to know the lineage rather than the name......take a look at this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:47 am 
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jorvik wrote:
Well Wing chun changes all the time, you have to know the lineage rather than the name......take a look at this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI

I would suggest that the style isn't changing. Rather the grappling was there all along, but was (temporarily) lost by those enamored only with striking.

One good thing about MMA is that it has styles looking back at their roots and rediscovering what was there in their forms. In my case I ran across a mixed martial artist (judo, then kyokushinkai, then goju, then aikido) before sport MMA began. The sport just reaffirmed the journey I was on.

Okinawa te had tegumi in it before striking became cool. That tegumi is being rediscovered as well.

I like this guy. His grappling isn't like BJJ, where there can be an obsession with spending long periods of time on the floor. He's doing street grappling.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:42 pm 
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"I would suggest that the style isn't changing. Rather the grappling was there all along, but was (temporarily) lost by those enamored only with striking."

not so Bill, this is standard chinese Wrestling "shuai jiao " that you see,mixed in with Sticking hands practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGjARw6l ... 1&index=12

I once asked GrandMaster Sam Kwouk if there were any throws or Chi na in Wing Chun, or secret techniques...he said notl


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:06 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
not so Bill, this is standard chinese Wrestling "shuai jiao " that you see,mixed in with Sticking hands practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGjARw6l ... 1&index=12

I once asked GrandMaster Sam Kwouk if there were any throws or Chi na in Wing Chun, or secret techniques...he said notl

Well if you ask a "GrandMaster" if there are "secret techniques" in a form, he's going to try real hard not to laugh. I would offer that you got a polite and somewhat dismissive answer.

Go back to the beginning of the video, Ray; he explains it all.

Sifu Wang Zhi Peng wrote:
All Chinese Kung Fu they all include Kick, Hit, Throw, Locking.

That's unequivocal, no? He didn't say some, but not Wing Chun; he said *All*.

Sifu Wang Zhi Peng wrote:
A kick is not only a kick. A hit is not only a hit. A throw is not only a throw. Not a single skill can be omitted. All are linked.

I like Sifu Wang; I disagree with what you are saying here. I've viewed enough southern Chinese arts and worked with enough very advanced practitioners of Okinawa te to believe differently.

I see the movements of the forms in his movements. In particular I see leg movements that some think to be "strikes" or "blocks" or "stances", but have a different interpretation when used in grappling.

I highly recommend you spend some time with Patrick McCarthy. He does make it over to your neck of the woods now and then. What this Chinese sifu says jives with what any forms practitioner worth his salt will tell you. One needs to free the mind and stop looking at literal or single interpretations in forms. Forms are studies of movement and mechanics, and not necessarily battles with specific techniques. View them as the latter and your brain is stuck forever in one-dimensional fighting, causing you to need to go elsewhere to learn what's right there under your very nose.

Time for some housecleaning in your brain. Take the two arts and blend them into one. Put yin and yang together as one whole. Otherwise you've got a clusterfuk in-between your ears, and won't be able to draw information under extreme neuro-hormonal stimulation because the synapses just aren't accessible. That concept as well needs to be considered here. It's not just the "THAT'S NOT UECHI!!!!!!" or "THAT'S NOT WING CHUN!!!" tired old argument. It's a matter of conditioning the brain to act in a unique neuro-hormonal state. Life-threatening situations aren't the gymnasium where all is safe and the brain can ponder. It's very, very different. Operant conditioning is in order so we can short-cut the OODA loop. Teaching the body to do more with less is in order so we can minimize our choices and thus minimize reaction time (see Hick's Law).

Or not... One does have a choice today. We are after all relatively safe, and don't really *need* to use this stuff. If brain hoarding of UN-linked thingies works for you and you don't plan on facing The Grim Reaper, well go for it!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:04 pm 
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"Well if you ask a "GrandMaster" if there are "secret techniques" in a form, he's going to try real hard not to laugh. I would offer that you got a polite and somewhat dismissive answer."

Again not so Bill, it was in the middle of a class discussion when he offered this piece of information. A style is very specific or it isn't a style.
Wing chun is a close in fighting System employing strikes because they believe that that is the way to fight close in.there is actually a book of sayings to tell wing chun practitioners what to do, called the Kum kuit...it's quite obvious that this guy has linked in some Chinese wrestling to his wing Chun..same as if I did some Aikido mixed in with Uechi it wouldn't be Uechi.
I remember years ago telling you about an Aikido club that I went to and we used to have seperate classes where we just trained punching and kicking, not proper aikido..........one guy ony trained in those classes. Years later I bumped into him and asked him how he was doing he told me he had a blackbelt.I said what in? he replied Aikido :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .........now imagine if this guy went to the Aikikai in Japan, he would get laughed off the mats.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Time for some housecleaning in your brain. Take the two arts and blend them into one. Put yin and yang together as one whole. Otherwise you've got a clusterfuk in-between your ears, and won't be able to draw information under extreme neuro-hormonal stimulation because the synapses just aren't accessible. That concept as well needs to be considered here. It's not just the "THAT'S NOT UECHI!!!!!!" or "THAT'S NOT WING CHUN!!!" tired old argument. It's a matter of conditioning the brain to act in a unique neuro-hormonal state. Life-threatening situations aren't the gymnasium where all is safe and the brain can ponder. It's very, very different. Operant conditioning is in order so we can short-cut the OODA loop. Teaching the body to do more with less is in order so we can minimize our choices and thus minimize reaction time (see Hick's Law).


Well put, Bill, and something we have argued on our respective forums for years on end.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:24 pm 
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From the WC guys I know a lot if not most lineages do not have chin na ( or at least don't emphasize it), a few do. But for the most part the WC guys I've trained with did not like most locks as they break WC principles, and those boys do like their principles.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:48 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
From the WC guys I know a lot if not most lineages do not have chin na ( or at least don't emphasize it), a few do. But for the most part the WC guys I've trained with did not like most locks as they break WC principles, and those boys do like their principles.

Well put.

In biology and in martial arts, natural selection applies. Those groups of living things that can survive a constantly-changing environment tend to survive better in the long run over the over-specialized living things with limited genotypes. Those martial arts that can be applied across a spectrum of activities (from everyday training to sport to self-defense to combat to health and wellness) tend to survive better in the long run over the over-specialized arts that work only in a limited setting against a specific set of threats and environments.

If your principles and/or inaccurate interpretation of said principles back you into a corner, your art will die. Thus I offer that those lineages holding on to myopic principles will need to re-think their operating principles. Otherwise in 30 years we'll be talking about how their "traditional art" died and was replaced by some newfangled thing, all while their neighbors survived and continue to pass their art down from generation to generation.

I've practiced with Wing Chun people as well, Mike. For the record... I first learned how properly to apply a rear naked choke from a Wing Chun teacher. And I now "see" that rear naked choke in my Uechi kata every time I do an "elbow thingie." And that vision is consistent with the way Bob Campbell insisted I perform this elbow thingie in kata. I would offer that Bob knows a thing or two about Chinese martial arts. (Van and George can verify that.)

I see lots of things in lots of things. Having a one-track mind has its issues...

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