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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:10 pm 
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I think that there is too much political correctness about when it comes to teaching self defence or even martial arts. Everybody is telling you to use " reasonable force" when something totally unreasonable is happening to you. One tale I remember hearing from classical karate was why they hit the makiwara so much, and the answer was that in a real fight you will only have a tenth of your strength, you will be disabled by fear,so you overtrain and that is a good way to look at it, I think.and back in the day on Okinawa everybody, not just karate guys had a makiwara to hit,relieve stress ,whatever
even though I know the law, I think in a real situation it would be very hard to comply with it and survive ......also it's good to act out scenarios in your head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e9CkhBb18E


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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Ray
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Everybody is telling you to use " reasonable force" when something totally unreasonable is happening to you.


Well said. The problem is the 'state of mind' of the victim that 'controls' the moment. Sitting in a jury box, nice and smug, and trying to step into the shoes of the victim, is hard to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:13 pm 
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I agree.......we shouldn't try to think ahead, or think of how a jury would judge us, we should just think HOW Would I survive this?. Truth be told you need to put everything out of your mind apart from survival.like if a dog attacks you or a cougar......you don't think how will PETA feel..same with a jury and you shouldn't voluntarily surrender yourself to the police....after all you have done nothing wrong, nothing morally wrong you have just defended yourself.........why put yourself in the firing line?


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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Location: Jeddore
Van Canna wrote:
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Recreational Martial Arts and Fight, Flight or Freeze

Trained and conditioned responses, sometimes take months even years to develop. Special Forces operatives usually undergo a year of extensive training before ever seeing combat. The same applies for law enforcement officers, firefighters, paramedics and even bouncers. Furthermore, time spent patrolling the streets, or on the battlefield, heightens their sense of awareness, which in turn allows them to experience the fight, flight or freeze syndrome in a calm and detached state, unlike the ordinary civilian.

And herein lies the problem with recreational martial arts practice and self-defense programs. Recreational martial artists are often led to believe they are learning how to fight, but sadly the dojo bears little resemblance to the mean streets of most metropolitan cities. And even in schools devoted exclusively to self-defense students may never experience the fight, flight or freeze syndrome because while physically practicing realistic techniques on a subconscious level, they feel safe because of the familiarity of their surroundings.

Worse yet are those who teach one-day seminars to unsuspecting persons all the while guaranteeing complete protection from any and all threats. This can and does happen frequently in large corporations, government agencies, and private companies when a well intentioned person desires to improve work safety, yet knows little about realistic self-protection.


Hence a martial arts instructor is paid to lead a self-defense seminar and the corporate staff comes away with a false sense of security and a handful of knowledge that may prove more dangerous than useful. For example, on several occasions I have personally witnessed self-defense instructors advocate striking the thorax as a first response in addition to the advice “just keep moving forward, you’ll work through the fight or flight as you go.”
Michael Rosenbaum


Controlling your emotions so you can address what is actually occurring comes with experience. If a person is not exposed to the "darker side" of human behavoir on an ongoing bases then the likelyhood of learning that skill in a non stressful class environment is near nil. Having to be the one who must address the guy who for example overturns the shopping cart in anger is worth a thousand self defense courses. Having to address the " angry man" without the option of using those wonderful MA skills you have filled away is a priceless teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Would be interesting to evaluate how much environment issues such as ones occupation does factor in on the ability to react appropriatly

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:37 pm 
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I suppose it plays some part. My dad was an engineer but had tremendous grip strength from cutting and filing metal when he was young and he retained it to old age, my sailing instructor also has tremendous strength in his hands from "Sweating the sails". I note you say " appropriately"...sometimes kicking the snot out of somebody isn't appropriate :lol: so maybe some people have great communication skills from their job.it's hard to say


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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:07 pm 
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I think the word 'appropriatly' must be defined. What is appropriate for one my not be for another transgressor.

But as to whom the bastard would have to worry more...I would say a steel worker on the job is more dangerous that a bookkeeper.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:05 pm 
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The strongest person in the dojo here back in the 1990s, with the best grip, was a concrete layer. I believe his day job definitely helped his martial arts. He was the most challenging to spar, particularly after he learned to incorporate technique with his brute strength. And yet the gentlest, most soft-spoken person outside of that context.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 pm 
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and of course you have all those fat cops sitting on their arses all day driving around......what could you learn from them :P how good would they be in a streetfight


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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:04 am 
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One of the most critical aspects of defense is the potential brute force of an opponent, even lacking any real skills.

I see this 'swept under the rug' in almost any dojo class, going on the assumption that a student would be able to block and stop with a counter, any attack from any assailant, including someone taller, heavier, and three times as strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:05 am 
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Glenn wrote:
The strongest person in the dojo here back in the 1990s, with the best grip, was a concrete layer. I believe his day job definitely helped his martial arts. He was the most challenging to spar, particularly after he learned to incorporate technique with his brute strength. And yet the gentlest, most soft-spoken person outside of that context.
The functional strength one devolves doing labor is a significant advantage over those lacking in that area. I remember at Malone's a guy names Eugene that use to hammer the crap out of lots of us. He spent his day lifting dirt or ice on the end of a shovel (weight on a long leaver). It hurt when he hit you he was super strong. Decades later I developed similar traits following a similar program. I've been ridiculed by some for depending on strength, but the bottom line is even going soft and throwing in some technique the weak crumble it's not my fault it's theirs. Eat something and work!

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:10 am 
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jorvik wrote:
and of course you have all those fat cops sitting on their arses all day driving around......what could you learn from them :P how good would they be in a streetfight
The third skill experience! Fit/strong, skilled and experienced. Each one will serve you, all of them and your more than a handful for lots of folks. Lots of fat desk jockeys on the force at one time had lots of beat experience and lots of exposure to the elephant. Hard to trump experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:09 pm 
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I'm not saying all cops are not tough, but folks preconceptions come in here a lot....everybody knows what a cop does because they have seen it on TV. the tough maverik cop who goes against the system to get the bad guy and picks up the beautiful blonde on the way while killing numerous bad guys in shootouts, he is never responsible and doesn't file reports or witness statements and nobody questions the trail of violence he leaves behind him. :roll:
But lets get real, it's not like that at all, but the only people who know that are the cops or the people who work with them...there is an image and sometimes an agenda to sell :) ...............truth is nowadays in the UK you don't need any fitness requirement to be a leo or any height requirement so you get little weak girls and men wannabees who spend more time learning about how to deal with ethnic minorities and their rights or attending team building exercises, and politically correct brainwashing courses and the reason that they get by is the psychology of the masses. bad guys know the system, good people think they are protected. everyone respects the uniform and what it represents to them
The good cops are not what you expect.I know a policewoman who was invalided out the police after being injured in a high speed car chase while she was driving ( not her fault) .doesn't fit most people's ideas though


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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:26 am 
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Here's 'strong'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5LP4r7Yf50

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 Post subject: Re: Why didn't she run?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:39 pm 
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http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2012 ... -hope.html

I don't see it in that blog, so maybe I heard it from Rory in person or in a different blog post, but he explains the way women are often controlled in such situations by exploiting hope. First there is a brutal show of force, which may have been devastating enough in Amy's case, but afterwards there is the "apology". "I'm sorry you made me do that. I don't want to do that again. If you'll just cooperate and do what I say, everything will be all right." I think it is a bit much to expect a random woman (or anyone) to just know about this instinctively, abandon hope, and run or fight or whatever is possible. The strategy works often enough that clearly people need to be taught about it so that they can recognize the lie instantly.

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