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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:29 pm 
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I decided to write this after my workout this morning when I recalled visits to some Uechi dojos.

I feel silly saying this but quite often I think about interpretation of kata movements when I have nothing better to worry about. When I was younger and full of vinegar I used to be preoccupied with mental imagery of how to take out a person (empty handed), but then I was younger and stupider and I got into street fights all the time, which of course I no longer have any interest in doing.

No offense intended here. Most of the Sensei's I met are great and serious with their practice. But some of the interpretations being taught were totally ineffective, to the extent that they are just ridiculous in this day and age where streets and bars are roaming with oversized monsters.

We are not dealing with little skinny 100-lb half-naked highway robbers back in 19th century China anymore. The bastards now are humongous, and most of the time they are wearing jackets. So there.

I have been an advocate of "thinking outside of the box" on kata interpretations. But I was just trying to be polite and really meant not to rely so much on text book or theoretical interpretations, even if they came from Okinawa. I wonder how many of those Okinawan masters ever got into a real fight to know how it really is. The interpretation has to work in a street fight situation to be any good. For those of you who had experienced street fights then you know what I am talking about.

There are many "funny" interpretations going around, one specific movement that got me going this morning was the final movement in Sanseiru with the crane strike. Believe me, there are many other movements with funny interpretations. I might be offending some Sensei's here but regardless, for this specific one I recalled being told by more than one Okinawan senior masters (I think they are all gone now. RIP.) and repeated by many Sensei's here that it is to strike the little indented soft spot behind the collar bone. Yep, speaking of textbook interpretation. Bring your hand way up with the crane beak and go at it at the little indented soft spot. One even told me that after the strike got into the muscle (say what?), pull your fingers forward to dislodge the collar bone. OK, taking Judge Judy's word, ridiculous! Think about it: Here I am in a fight with this huge monster, he may even be wearing a heavy jacket, and I am going to use my burning-sand-toughened steel rod fingers to crane strike him at that little spot behind his collar bone, and yes, when I got in so very accurately I would pull the collar bone forward. Yep, it will really work. He will just stand there and may even help me doing it like they do in some of those martial arts demonstrations.

Well, with full respect, I have my own interpretation on that movement. I might have stolen it from someone else but it is mine now. In my mind, it is simple and effective and will work even under Van's famous chemical cocktail attack. And yea to the wise guy out there who likes to ask wise guy questions, I haven't tried that on any real person or killed anyone with that movement yet, but I can try it on you the next chance we have.

I did some YouTube clips on various movements and thought about doing another clip on this but I am shying away from doing YouTube clips nowadays due to the trolls. I will however, demonstrate it in the next summer or winter camp if I am given the opportunity.

My point here is, if the movement doe not work in a street, you are just playing. It is fine if that is all you want.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:14 am 
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I've trained in that technique, although not quite in the way you describe it. And it works a treat 8)
Basically you don't strike, you press your fingers into that area and then push down, aim to touch your fingers to the floor and they will go down real quick, and size doesn't matter....It's a technique that you should practice very rarely as it is really scary when somebody does it to you, I've tried to resist it and that is virtually impossible, for me at least.
I did it when I trained in Aiki Jutsu, the story told by them was that, you stabbed somebody there with a knife and then pushed the handle forward, the ribs are supposedly strong on the outside but when you pull your blade on the inside they are weak and they will all pop.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Thanks for the response, Jorvik.

The technique you mentioned is a Chin-Na technique loosely called Grabbing the Tendon (Zhua Jin). As most techniques that uses nerve strikes or joint manipulations, they are very effective for cops or bouncers in situations where breaking someone's nose is really not too cool.

I was not clear on my post. I was talking about being effective in street or behind-the bar fighting situations where you really shouldn't try to be fancy. In those situations the bg is out to get you and will not be standing still for any type of nerve strikes or manipulative techniques. One good punch from him and it might end everything.

I was using the Sanseiru crane strike just for example. For those who may not be familiar with the Kata, the technique is to bring your right crane-beak way up, strike down fast and powerful at your opponent. I have no problem if the point of attack is anywhere at the opponent's face. I do have problem with the interpretation that the strike is to aim at the cavity behind the right collar bone. It sure sounds good and fancy, but please don't try it in a real fight where your life is at stake.

For those who insist that the movement is to aim the crane-beak at the vicinity of the collar bone, I am with you there. My goal of that strike however, is a little different. Will demonstrate it someday.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:43 pm 
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good post and this isn't meant to be a side track , but how about sliding the strike forward and using the cranesbeak not as the beak but hammering the trapezius with the thumbpad on the neck juncture and using the hook structure of the beak to aim the force around into the primitive brain stem.

then of course you can hook the trap and insert the thumb into the clavicular notch that was the original target?.

Im assuming the actual target where talking about is the clavicular notch , great gouging point and valid as a gouge , a hammer seems more practical as a collar bone strike though.

Lots of worse targets when you get into the neck, mandible etc. , but this is a nice one on the force continuum and gets a reaction and is still fairly gross motor and requires less modification.

as a sidenote with the gouge , if your using your fingers down and around is the way to go , really lights em up compared to just down , I suspect theres little glimmers of truth in the explanation , just got a little altered along the way IMHO


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:21 am 
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Quote
"I was not clear on my post. I was talking about being effective in street or behind-the bar fighting situations where you really shouldn't try to be fancy. In those situations the bg is out to get you and will not be standing still for any type of nerve strikes or manipulative techniques. One good punch from him and it might end everything."

Well I agree with that. I like to keep things simple myself. I think that people tend to train techniques that are too fancy or tend to overthink things.If you have a few good moves that you can do quickly and powerfully I think that is the best course.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Sometimes I let my do-it-quick-and-get-it-over-with mentality overshadow other point of views.

To be a Martial Artist I should not just emphasize the Martial and neglect the Art. There are practitioners out there who are equally or more interested on the Art part of Martial Art.

Being an engineer, I can use Engineering as example. There are those working in plants and jobsites making sure everything works. Then there are those working in research labs salivating over theories and equations. Yet they are all engineers and are all just as indispensable to the overall profession.

So, although my posts stressed the importance of realism in the narrow view of street fighting, in no way was I disrespecting those of us who are equally or more interested in the artful interpretation of kata movements.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:27 pm 
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1. It could be seen as a strike to the suprasternal notch. If you miss it, you should at least strike the throat (which is also effective). If you do not miss it, the person could die or at least have severe injuries.
2. Think of the raising of the arm and the preparation of the following strike as a technique itself (a block or maybe an attack).


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Henry
Quote:
No offense intended here. Most of the Sensei's I met are great and serious with their practice. But some of the interpretations being taught were totally ineffective, to the extent that they are just ridiculous in this day and age where streets and bars are roaming with oversized monsters.

We are not dealing with little skinny 100-lb half-naked highway robbers back in 19th century China anymore. The bastards now are humongous, and most of the time they are wearing jackets. So there.



This is so true and I keep reminding my students of this fact over and over.

Yeah, we have 'techniques' but against whom and when? Rory Miller in his books will douse us with gigantic cold water buckets.

'Confidence' in our techniques? Against whom, how and when? How do we know if our confidence is real or false?

Go to page 140 of 'Facing Violence' by Sgt Miller, and read chapter 6.1.2 'And this is your body' …

" Things that you can't do well when your hands/fingers are shaking" under the dump.

Think you can still use the 'Crane strike' well?

Now we understand what Marcus wrote about better ways to hit by cultivating simple effective techniques that the primal brain will give you permission to do under 'fight or flight' …

I don't see kata applications per se, rather a number of concepts at work that, ingrain naturally, and help dealing with the dynamics of violence. So I think maybe it is best to accept kata practice as a medium for improving lines of force and directions, body awareness, motor coordination, and most important, spatial orientation so critical in the chaos of a fight…with a view to inculcate_ in kata movements _ congruency with what the primal brain will command in a moment of self preservation.

Now as to the 'Crane strike'.

According to my information filtered from Kanbun/Toyama through Breyette sensei, the 'Kakushiken' is not a crane strike, rather a cobra strike, with a particular way of hand/fingers configuration with bones aligned properly, like a cudgel, to strike deep like a cobra bite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_blnl_lKm88

Maybe we should invite Gordi to this thread to determine if this technique was ever discussed/addressed in more details by Okinawan masters, as to its working capabilities in the modern world?

However, as Henry points out, the targeting remains a problem in the chaotic exchanges of a fight, plus the leather garments worn by many people, that would cover the usual point of strike. There are other targets, but this technique might well indeed work better as Jorvick relates.

The question still remains: Will the subconscious really allow/give you permission to use the Kakushiken in the chaos of combat?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Van Canna:

"I don't see kata applications per se, rather a number of concepts at work that, ingrain naturally, and help dealing with the dynamics of violence. So I think maybe it is best to accept kata practice as a medium for improving lines of force and directions, body awareness, motor coordination, and most important, spatial orientation so critical in the chaos of a fight…with a view to inculcate_ in kata movements _ congruency with what the primal brain will command in a moment of self preservation."

That is golden. That is karate. You have influenced my study and practice so much over the years.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:44 am 
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Thank you, my friend. Glad you agree, as when you think of it, in the end that is really all that is happening, applications be damned. The ones who are 'apps' obsessed are destined to chase chimeras.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Bob Campbell does not like the kakushiken technique at all.

He uses the same trajectory strike but done with a cupped hand so as to drive a concentrated air pocket along the side of your neck/clavicle or jaw line.

I have seen this demonstrated against Sal Al Jabar, a big strong man, and he brought him down to his knees with that strike...and he was being nice.

Bob can hit you anywhere with his 'cupped hand' strike and you will be hurting.

Amazing technique.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:57 am 
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Ahh, the famous cupped hand strike, a favorite back in the old Bas Rutten Pancrase days.
Check out:

www.gutterfightingusa.wordpress.com/200 ... nd-strike/

Henry

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:35 am 
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Quote:
He uses the same trajectory strike but done with a cupped hand so as to drive a concentrated air pocket along the side of your neck/clavicle or jaw line.


This is what I advocated above forming the Kakushiken forms the cup and slam with the thumb pad , and then you have the ability to grab and hook and/or gouge afterwards by slipping in the thumb into the clavicular or suprasternal notch(depending on target).

I like this because it plain works and shuts folks down well, I have used it.

Lots of the hand positions are usefull in a grappling manipulation sense , I think sometimes people get stuck looking at everything as a strike , when all you have is a hammer everything starts looking like a nail.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:27 am 
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Right on. The cupped hand delivers 'air bombs' and it is primal and gross motor.

We practice it consistently against the "Bob" where you can actually feel the concussive effect.

Besides the targeting you discussed, Bob Campbell uses it also against the trunk of the body, front and rear. Try it against Bob...amazing shot with the relaxed hand as Henry points out.

But there are caveats
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Slapping the face is generally considerably different and more risk-prone than slapping the body. The face holds sensitive skin, (about) 43 muscles, 14 bones, cartilage of the nose, the joint of the jaw, the eyes and a vast array of nerve endings. There is also the neck to consider which is always affected by a face hit. Any of these can be damaged by impact and must be handled with care, even in the most intense scene.

From Wikipedia: “The face is a central sense organ complex.” Keeping in mind the damage that could arise from being hit in the face, it might be helpful to remember the five senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch/feel. Any of these could be affected by a blow to the facial area. In hitting, be aware that you could possibly detach a retina causing long-lasting or permanent eye damage, rupture an eardrum, break a nose, bust a lip or dislocate a jaw.

Don’t forget the psychological aspects! The act of face slapping, by default, applies some level of humiliation, often a great deal of it.


You slap someone, he will be your enemy for life, and might want kill you just for the humiliation, resentment and anger, he suffered.

Down Southern Italy, where I was raised, it will cause revenge killings almost always.

(Wave your hand side to side, fingers slightly curved inward, as if trying to sway a large amount of water in one direction.)

Does it sound familiar?

Before the hit, with the relaxed arm/hand, curve the fingers inward, then slap. You will notice a big difference against Bob.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:09 am 
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http://youtu.be/hjE2sxCQ_rU

Good Stuff Van , I tuck the thumb and incorporate the thumb pad , I use this strike as a progression to the Bushiken , I think you started me conditioning to strike with this on my visit , and I give it credit to restructuring a once badly broken thumb socket.

I don't use the fist and this cupped strike is my primary , lots of damage

a power slap is not to be confused with a slap , and like any weapon should only be performed with intent to stop.

anybody who slaps for emotional effect is a fool , and caught in the dance , and as you say will have an enemy for life , anyone hit with a cupped power stroke should not know what hit them.


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