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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:42 am 
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from the reports sounds like blocking traffic is part of there modus operandi

they create a space so they can pull stunts and tape it .........

maybe they felt entitled to stop traffic and it got out of hand ..... Maybe the driver was aggressive or scared .....

lots of speculation ..... just such a futile situation all around


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:03 pm 
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http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/1 ... nt=event12

Quote:
Edwin “Jay” Mieses Jr., 32, who was riding one of dozens of motorcycles on the Henry Hudson Parkway Sunday afternoon, sustained two broken legs after apparently being run over by the SUV, police said. He remained in critical condition Tuesday at St. Luke’s Hospital in New York City.

In the video, it appears that the SUV may have hit the motorcyclist who slowed down. After that, the motorcyclists stopped, and appeared to block the SUV. But the SUV broke through and sped off, with the motorcyclists following. They caught up to the SUV in Washington Heights, where they allegedly slashed the SUV’s tires, used their helmets to break the SUV’s windows, and pulled the driver out, and attacked him.

New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the motorcyclists were part of a loosely organized group who planned to drive into the heart of the city as they had done last year, effectively paralyzing Times Square, The New York Times reported. Kelly said his department was on alert this year and stopped motorcyclists throughout the city before they could grow into a large throng.

Though Mieses is a Massachusetts resident, he has never had a valid Massachusetts driver’s license for a passenger vehicle and has never applied for a motorcycle license, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said.

Registry records show that Mieses applied for a learner’s permit in 1999 and 2000, but that he never obtained a full license because he failed to pay fines imposed after he was ticketed for speeding in Lawrence in 1999. His last contact with the Registry was in 2001, when he obtained an identification card, registry records show.

Since 1999, he has been ticketed by police 16 times, in Lawrence, Methuen, Roxbury, Andover, and New Hampshire, according to registry records.

In June, the Registry notified the National Driver Register that Mieses was a habitual traffic offender whose right to drive in Massachusetts was revoked until 2017, records show.


Real nice guy. Look where the 'tough guy' ended up...he will never walk again.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:23 pm 
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This will never be over even after it's over. Hope it will never happen to you---

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/27176724 ... =obnetwork

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Yes, Mr Lien is about to be plunged into even a darker abyss of emotional despair, and possible financial ruin in times to come.

http://jonathanturley.org/2013/10/01/ne ... on-family/

Quote:
The video shows Lien and his wife and child being stopped by the group. The bikers reportedly started denting the SUV with their helmets and may have slashed its tires. Lien is shown trying to escape by running over motorcycles and hitting at least one person. That person Edwin Mieses may be left a paraplegic after surgery for injuries to his heart, lungs and ribs.


Will his escape attempt be considered an intentional act or a negligent act?
Quote:
A person attacking in self-defense is afforded some leeway in flight. In torts, Lien would not have been able to use the vehicle to hit Mieses or others to protect the vehicle from property damage. You are not allowed to use force calculated to cause serious bodily injury or death in defense of property. However, the attack on the vehicle can be viewed as a threat to the family and thus the broader privilege of self-defense would apply.



Quote:
It is not clear that Mieses was attacking Lien but his motorcycle appears to be one of those blocking his escape. While the bikers can claim that the physical assault only came after they were attacked, it lends credence to Lien’s fear for his family. Moreover, even if responding to an attack on them, the common law does not extend the privilege of self-defense for the bikers to cover retaliation (which is involved in the pursuit and trapping of the family before the attack). The bikers may clearly seek a citizen arrest in blocking the SUV but the attack escalated such an effort into an unprivileged assault. At that point, the SUV does not appear to be moving or threatening the bikers.


Mr Lien will need to spend lots of money to hire a personal lawyer to possibly having to defend himself against his own auto liability insurance company, should they decide to deny coverage or defense on the basis Mr. Lien having committed an intentional act instead of a negligent act, in running over the biker, Mieses.

The lid from can of worms has just been lifted.

Even if the auto insurance carrier and or an umbrella liability policy, if Lien has one, will afford coverage for defense and indemnity in the ensuing litigation, what are the limits of coverage on the policies...will they be enough, given the damages suffered by the biker?
Quote:
The criminal and tort liability of the bikers could be based on their participation in trapping the family like fleeing game. The thuggish conduct of the rally before the attack could be cited as evidence of their culpability and modus operandi.

As for the family, Mieses and other could sue by claiming that they are not part of those threatening the family and were negligently run over by Lien. In other words, this could be a complete mess with over-lapping and conflicting claims.


All the bikers and their respective insurance carriers will be impleaded in the law suit based on the joint and several contribution statute in NY.

This will drag on and on.

Life, as Mr. Lien knew it, before this incident, will never be the same again.
Quote:
The bikers were engaged in a rally that they call “Hollywood Stuntz” in which they engage in obnoxious road stunts and generally harass drivers. The police arrested 15 people, confiscated 55 motorcycles and issued 68 summonses for the stunts starting in Times Square unconnected to the Lien attack.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:33 pm 
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As an aside, for us martial arts practitioners, it is critical to keep in mind that every 'defensive move' we may make in a fight, or every bullet that leaves the barrel of any gun we shoot…has a 'lawyer attached to it' right or wrong _we may be.

This problem becomes even more acute, if any of us on line/on the forums… brags/gives an impression that we are super tough/ have 'special training' knowledge of potential killing techniques etc. because a prosecutor in criminal law…and or a plaintiff's lawyer, will find you out and 'nail' you to the jury box with it. So it is wise to be careful in the ways we 'present' ourselves on these forums as to purported training/skills/ abilities.

Also check your liability insurance policies...auto...home owner...and be sure to buy an umbrella policy that will cover you in case you commit an intentional act in self defense.

If you don't have an umbrella policy with this additional coverage...don't even think of using your karate training in self defense.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Interesting comments here
Quote:
drs 1, October 1, 2013 at 3:12 pm

this is not a cut and dry case. the bikers were negligent and were 100% wrong in my eyes and I am a biker. I ride a loud obnoxious custom chopper but I am not a thug and I do not condone this activity. that being said, in the eyes of the law, the bikers could have a claim as indicated in this article.

They could argue that Lien hit one of their fellow riders (as seen at the beginning of the video) and they could go after her for that. Lien could easily respond with a claim of contributory negligence. The bikers were simply riding too close to one another and his car, they were engaging in reckless activity, and the initial accident that provoked the incident was a result of gross negligence on the bikers behalf.

Seeing that they were more negligent than Lien himself, who was cruising at an appropriate speed in the right lane, and abiding by all laws, they most likely could not succeed in a negligence case.

As for Lien running over one of the bikers in an attempt to escape, that is a different story. Lien cannot use his car as a weapon, he cannot respond with excessive force, and he cannot retaliate… he can protect himself to a certain extent. The question is when is that line crossed?

Could Lien argue contributory negligence here by arguing that Mieses was stop in the middle of a parkway, and riding a motorcycle which is inherently dangerous to begin with?

Additionally, could Lien argue self defense if he reasonably believed his life, or his families, was in immediate danger? Did he really have any other choice? does that matter?

I think the bikers are in a bad spot here, but I am curious to see what comes of Lien, could he be penalized in any way and does he have a valid legal defense given the amount of force he used and the result of that force (a paralyzed man).

Who is the cheapest cost avoider here? Society must now care for the paralyzed individual, is that fair? Is it fair to hold Lien liable when any reasonable person would have acted similarly?… as any case, it will come down to great lawyering, I’d love to hear a seasoned lawyers approach to defending Lien if he were sued.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:48 pm 
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Quote:
randyjet 1, October 1, 2013 at 4:28 pm

It is quite clear that the riders were doing wrong by stopping traffic on the road. Lien reminds me of George Wallace who famously said that he would run over any protestor if they got in his way when he was driving. It is also clear that Lien was NOT being assaulted or threatened before he ran over the biker. After that, Lien became a fleeing felon who lost his rights by his own actions.

The bikers can claim immediate rage caused by the crime Lien committed against one of their members who were engaged in harmless pranks, which while illegal, did not require the use of deadly force to be used.

I hope Lien gets some heavy prison time for his crimes.


Imagine what the plaintiff's lawyer's will be in the unfolding legal action. :(

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:30 pm 
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We don't know all the facts to this case, and we don't know what preceded the chase......I think it all comes down to that, but in any situation like this you are " dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't"......if he really thought he ,his wife and his kids were in danger then what could he do apart from try to escape??.and if he kills or maims someone in the process, well it's a lot better than seeing your wife or kid get the same treatment....but now he is accountable for his actions, whereas he could be looking at the corpses of his wife and kid. I think Van knows my opinions about experts :lol: .......and the reason that I have that opinion is that this type of case is not unusual........you are faced with a lot of options or choices, you have to make the decisions under stress, the situation is always intangible and changing and you are not the only potential victim :cry: ....and in my experience I would say 99% of crimes involving violence are like this...........you have your out liers, but generally they are going to be a mess of emotion,confusion and hard physical violence. Martial arts generally don't teach you even 1% of what you need to know for this type of situation :cry:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:09 pm 
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If anyone thinks he would do anything other than what Lien did, he is not being honest.

Now that Ms Allred is their lawyer, well, read up Ms Allred. Lien is in deep s hit.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:38 pm 
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hthom wrote:
If anyone thinks he would do anything other than what Lien did, he is not being honest.

Now that Ms Allred is their lawyer, well, read up Ms Allred. Lien is in deep s* hit.


I agree...and in this life it is all about 'damned if you do and damned if you don't'....

You make the choice, you live with it...and if you haven't done what you could have done to reduce your exposure in some way...then you will live with your regrets on top of everything else.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Quote:
Now that Ms Allred is their lawyer, well, read up Ms Allred. Lien is in deep s* hit.


Allred, Esquire, is the biker's [plaintiff] lawyer...and yes...Lien is in deep #####...

And to remember is that 'culpability' in a civil action is decided by the preponderance of evidence against the defendant, as opposed to 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in criminal actions.

Question to you guys...

Did the injuries to the biker...result from a 'negligence' act or an intentional act?

And what defines negligence?
Quote:
a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances.
The area of tort law known as negligence involves harm caused by carelessness, not intentional harm.

According to Jay M. Feinman of the Rutgers University School of Law;
"The core idea of negligence is that people should exercise reasonable care when they act by taking account of the potential harm that they might foreseeably cause harm to other people."


Personally, I think that Lien acted 'reasonably' in doing what he did, especially in the protection of his family...

The question now is...how will Lien appear to a jury of peers...after Ms Allred gets through painting Lien 'red' before a jury...and who is going to pay for Lien's defense and or indemnity for damages to the biker.

I'd like to know your opinions...just stay with the question...do not deviate.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:46 pm 
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What is the source or evolutionary nature of 'the human condition'? We are evolved out of ignorance and continue to be born in ignorance, and that means that even as we discover and amass knowledge -the 'if this, then that-ness' of matter and existence, 'new situations' and 'new ignorances' will always present something of a problem to someone as long as we exist.

The material of a 'human condition', on the other hand, has to have come into existence the moment any first man communicated 'bother by something he couldn't get a handle on', were that a caveman communicating frustration at trying to flake a blade into existence or the absence of 'life' in a man fallen suddenly dead before him -nor does it end with that ignorance, for lying at the bottom and convoluting the whole is the inseparable combination of sex and pecking order -all of us, therefore, subject to consequences of our own and each other's 'ignorance'.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:02 pm 
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“There are three deaths. The first is when the body ceases to function. The second is when the body is consigned to the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future, when your name is spoken for the last time.”

― David Eagleman, Sum: Forty Tales from the Afterlives


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“If two people stare at each other for more than a few seconds, it means they are about to either make love or fight. Something similar might be said about human societies. If two nearby societies are in contact for any length of time, they will either trade or fight. The first is non-zero-sum social integration, and the second ultimately brings it.”

― Robert Wright


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“I am a member of a fragile species, still new to the earth, the youngest creatures of any scale, here only a few moments as evolutionary time is measured, a juvenile species, a child of a species. We are only tentatively set in place, error prone, at risk of fumbling, in real danger at the moment of leaving behind only a thin layer of our fossils, radioactive at that.”

― Lewis Thomas, Fragile Species

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“Practically every fella that breaks the law has a danged good reason, to his own way of thinking, which makes every case exceptional, not just one or two. Take you, for example.”

― Jim Thompson, Pop. 1280


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The cats' bloodthirst was normal; it was the way God had made them. They were hunters, they killed for food and to train their young--well maybe sometimes for sport. But this violent act by some unknown human had nothing to do with hunting--for a human to brutally maim one of the own kind out of rage or sadism or greed was, to Joe and Dulcie (the cats), a shocking degradation of the human condition. To imagine that vicious abandon in a human deeply distressed Dulcie; she did not like thinking about humans that way.”

― Shirley Rousseau Murphy, Cat in the Dark

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:49 pm 
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"Personally, I think that Lien acted 'reasonably' in doing what he did, especially in the protection of his family...

The question now is...how will Lien appear to a jury of peers...after Ms Allred gets through painting Lien 'red' before a jury...and who is going to pay for Lien's defense and or indemnity for damages to the biker.

I'd like to know your opinions...just stay with the question...do not deviate."


We don't know all the facts yet, and we never will, the best we can hope for is reasonable coverage by the newspapers. Look at the Zimmerman case, that could have gone either way. personnaly I think the coverage by the left wing media, their support for gun confiscation and all the lefty celebrities, obama included who went out of their way to dam Zimmerman earned him his freedom. If it had of been looked at reasonably on facts alone and not on emotive triggers it may have turned out very differently.
I think that Lien should walk away from this, because the bikers, the film that we saw of them were very confrontational and there were many of them..and he had his wife and kid.the question for the jury is " Did He act reasonable?"...looking at what I've seen I would say yes.......also as to it being racially motivated.it would be good for him if it was, because the way the "politically correct" have painted any form of Rascism is like you'd done a murder.......in my country at least if you question the number of immigrants allowed into the country that is the first thing the lefties say " Racist"......I would say that he has a very good case and that would make it even better.
But you know if you have ever driven a SUV like a Range rover..there are sooooo many blindspots...it may well have been his fault, if he didn't see a motorcyclist.and then maybe it escalated.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Again a few points of deep thought:

1. This will be a civil action…thus far Lien has not been criminally charged.
2. Bear in mind that 'facts' do not play the most important role in civil litigation, to wit
Quote:
What controls in civil actions is … Preponderance of the evidence….

Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases.


3. The reason why most high profile cases hinge on the 'preponderance' of lawyering, if you will. Thus the injured biker's retention of Attorney Allred… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Allred

4. I have spent 30 years in investigations and trial prep of catastrophic civil/criminal cases on behalf of Insurance companies and Defense Attorneys… as well as resolution by way of settlement negotiations…and I can tell you that when Ms Allred files a complaint against Lien…people will be astounded by the 'calculated' allegations that will 'pepper' the 'four corners' of such legal paper against Lien. It is 'shot-gunning' of the defendant at its best.

5. Something else that not many people quite understand, is that a civil jury, in extreme injury case, can be easily swayed to find in favor of a badly hurt plaintiff, regardless of the culpability factor, because they will feel it will be the insurance money[ behind the defendant] to compensate the plaintiff…and not the defendant himself.
~~~~~~~~~~

Stay with these thoughts for a bit.

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