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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Next we need to understand some critical aspects of ultimate survival from ruin, that again most people have difficulty grasping, but that's understandable because even people in 'the business' have been known to miss.

Ray wrote
Quote:
The question for the jury is " Did He act reasonable?"...looking at what I've seen I would say yes.......


Yes, but in the context of this 'survival analysis' for Lien...we must also answer this question:

In his 'acting reasonable' did he also act 'intentionally' in running over the biker in order to save himself and his family?

You can bet that Ms Allred will allege that Lien acted intentionally. [ remember, this has nothing to do with 'he had no choice...what else could he have done?"]

A binary example might help readers in understanding the ramifications:

You are in martial arts...and you come under attack by some punk...you, while acting in 'self defense' kick him causing him to fall and hit his head on the ground, resulting in his death or paralysis.

Was your kick an intentional defensive act on your part or not?

Then answer this question, given we are discussing serious civil exposure to Lien.

What are the potential serious implications of an 'intentional act' on the part of Lien, during this looming litigation that will require very expensive defense lawyers?

Don't feel bad if you don't get it. Not many do.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:36 pm 
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While you are pondering the above...do read this, as if the situation weren't already complex over the top....

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10 ... cials?lite

Quote:
At a Manhattan news conference, Allred said Mieses, 32, had his back to the Range Rover and was trying to get fellow bikers to walk away when he was struck "at top speed."

"Watch that huge vehicle, SUV, blast off, and watch it as it is lifted several feet off the ground as it rolls over Edwin Mieses," she said of the video of the incident, which has gotten millions of hits on YouTube.

Allred said she was not justifying the subsequent assault on Lien.

"Edwin Mieses and his family deplore what happened to the driver of the SUV," she said.

"However, let us not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Mieses had done nothing to Mr. Lien," she added. "We don't think our client should have been run over and crushed."

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:39 pm 
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Sadly I agree that Mr Lein and his family will never be the same. And in civil litigation it is simply 51 percent of a jury. But I will say this. Jurors are Jurors, i.e. average citizens. It's too bad the police (or anyone for that matter) will never get the "rest" of the video shot showing the "motorcycle gang" beating Mr. Lein half to death. That footage has long since been deleted. The only hope for Mr. Lein is if some other "high powered" attorney agrees to represent him. To offset Alred. But there is hope.

One: it is reported that the police had several run ins with this same crowd and these incidents are documented.
Two: A picture is worth a thousand words. For ever piece of footage Gloria clips and shows (i.e. just the running over of her client) the other side can show the motorcycle gang attempting to attack Mr. Lein.
Three: What was this particular biker doing "parking" his motorcycle directly in front of a civilian in a vehicle on a public roadway. He parked it along with others in order to prevent Mr. Lein from leaving.

I'm not completely sure but Mr. Lein may be able to show that he was in fear for his and his families lives.

Now I understand that much of what I have said will rely completely on what is legally admitted in trial. And this has, and will continue to be tried in the court of the media. God help Mr. Lein if he's found to be a Republican, much less a member of the Tea Party....................

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
While you are pondering the above...do read this, as if the situation weren't already complex over the top....

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10 ... cials?lite

Quote:
At a Manhattan news conference, Allred said Mieses, 32, had his back to the Range Rover and was trying to get fellow bikers to walk away when he was struck "at top speed."

"Watch that huge vehicle, SUV, blast off, and watch it as it is lifted several feet off the ground as it rolls over Edwin Mieses," she said of the video of the incident, which has gotten millions of hits on YouTube.

Allred said she was not justifying the subsequent assault on Lien.

"Edwin Mieses and his family deplore what happened to the driver of the SUV," she said.
"However, let us not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Mieses had done nothing to Mr. Lien," she added. "We don't think our client should have been run over and crushed."


Interesting Van. I wonder (have to look closely) if her client "parked" "his" motorcycle in front of the SUV while he was trying to get everyone else to leave the SUV alone? If I were trying to get everyone to leave the vehicle alone and let them pass I might not park "my" motorcycle directly in front of the vehicle I'm trying to allow to leave? :?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:36 am 
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Recently a home invader got shot by the homeowner during a robbery, and his mama was (still is, I guess) claiming that his good boy who had never hurt anyone and now facing loss of future income. Sorry I don't have time to give references or links but it is there somewhere.

Lien is in deep poopoo. Allred sees tons of money and probably offered her service the second she heard about it. Is Lien's defense a money making thing for lawyers? Don't think so. Don't think he will get too many "volunteers".

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:43 am 
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also as to it being racially motivated.it would be good for him (Lien) if it was


The news and blogs I read so far haven't mentioned race (as in human race) of the bikers or Lien although Lien's is obvious. Race is a taboo subject that seemed best swept under the carpet as most news agencies do, so I am treading on thin ice here even though I am not a racist at all whatsoever. I got discriminated or picked on often due to my Asian heritage therefore I do not discriminate or pick on others due to their race whether they are black, white, green, blue, whatever. And this is my feeble attempt to lead to the last two paragraphs in this post.

Quote:
The cats' bloodthirst was normal; it was the way God had made them. They were hunters, they killed for food and to train their young--well maybe sometimes for sport. But this violent act by some unknown human had nothing to do with hunting--for a human to brutally maim one of the own kind out of rage or sadism or greed was, to Joe and Dulcie (the cats), a shocking degradation of the human condition. To imagine that vicious abandon in a human deeply distressed Dulcie; she did not like thinking about humans that way.”


May be dogs are better example for me to use because I don't know about cats. There are dogs such as Labrador Retrievers which love everyone, and then there are "dogs" such as Pit Bulls that want to eat everyone. By the same token there are humans that value peace and family, and then there are "humans" who hurt others or create havocs as their normal routine. (Take Oakland, CA for example, it is a great day if there are less than several shootings and murders that day. Can it all be blamed on poverty or lack of education? Or is it easier just blaming the mayor like a lot of Oaklanders are doing? Or what? I don't want to get any further into it.)

Well, I do have many black friends and I think I can trust them with my life more so than other friends (Sorry, my "other" friends.) Most blacks are just fine and they generally acknowledge that there is a segment of them creating a terrible reputation affecting the majority of them. I know a lot of blacks go out of their way to be less intimidating and more friendly due to the bad reputations.

Having said that, a lot of Asians have been assaulted by blacks (due to being smaller, weaker, easier to pick on, whatever). In this case the biker photos shown on the news so far are all blacks but not a word of that has been mentioned on the news. So is it a black vs Asian motivated thing or does it mean anything?

Like it or not, it is not surprising albeit unfairly that when a crime is committed one can almost assume correctly in many cases that the bg is black. The rotten orange that spoils the whole barrel, enough of rotten ones and pretty soon the entire barrel gets marked off. So--

Here is one: Imagine yourself driving with your family and swarmed by what seems to be hundreds of roaring motorcycles, that alone would send your nerves into overdrive wouldn't it? And imagine if the riders are black, would that make you feel more safe? Or less? (Whether you yourself is black or not).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:04 am 
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Published October 06, 2013/
Associated Press

FRESNO, Calif. – Authorities Sunday were investigating what touched off a wild "running gun battle" inside and outside a Fresno motorcycle club's annual dance, leaving one man dead and at least a dozen others wounded.

Shots were still being fired at 2 a.m. Saturday when the first of more than 100 law enforcement officers arrived at the Soul Brothers clubhouse near Fresno, the Fresno County Sheriff's Office said.


Umm. I'm outla here.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Liability e.g. culpability of defendant Lien, in a civil jury trial, will be an interesting process influenced by 'battling lawyers' _ plaintiff's and defendant's_ Mieses and Lien.

Henry
Quote:
Lien is in deep poopoo. Allred sees tons of money and probably offered her service the second she heard about it. Is Lien's defense a money making thing for lawyers? Don't think so. Don't think he will get too many "volunteers".


The money Allred sees will come from 'deep pockets' where are these deep pockets??

1. The personal worth of Mr. Lien_
2. The liability insurance coverage limits on Lien's Range Rover
3. The possible umbrella liability coverage limits, should Lien have such coverage.
4. The insurance coverage limits on each motorcycle owner involved in the chase that can be sued directly by the plaintiff or impleaded by the defendant Lien.

~~

Why would each biker in the group that chased Lien, be also responsible criminally and civilly?
Quote:
The criminal and tort liability of the bikers could be based on their participation in trapping the family like fleeing game. The thuggish conduct of the rally before the attack could be cited as evidence of their culpability and modus operandi.


Thus their collective behavior may well be considered as proximately contributing to the resulting injuries to biker Mieses.

Here's the NY 'joint tortfeasor statute'

~~~~~

Quote:
New York
Joint and Several Liability Reform: SB 9391 (1986): N.Y. Civ. Prac. L. & R. §§ 1601-1602. Bars application of the rule of joint and several liability in the recovery of noneconomic damages from defendants found to be 50% or less at fault. The reform does not apply to actions where the defendant is found to have acted with reckless disregard of the rights of others, and in actions involving motor vehicle cases, actions involving the release of toxic substances into the environment, intentional torts, contract cases, product liability cases where the manufacturer could not be joined, construction...cases, and other specific actions.


Atty Allred stated
Quote:
At a Manhattan news conference, Allred said Mieses, 32, had his back to the Range Rover and was trying to get fellow bikers to walk away when he was struck "at top speed."

"Watch that huge vehicle, SUV, blast off, and watch it as it is lifted several feet off the ground as it rolls over Edwin Mieses," she said of the video of the incident, which has gotten millions of hits on YouTube.

Allred said she was not justifying the subsequent assault on Lien.

"Edwin Mieses and his family deplore what happened to the driver of the SUV," she said.

"However, let us not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Mieses had done nothing to Mr. Lien," she added. "We don't think our client should have been run over and crushed."


The Globe today
Quote:
The confrontation in New York between the swarm and the SUV goes far beyond the all-too-usual road rage. A fearful driver explodes, fleeing the scene by running over the cyclists menacing him. Rationality evaporates. The expression of anger becomes an end in itself, and justifies actions that can only result in sorrow.


On TV this morning we see Mieses with his back to the SUV and seemingly directing the motorcycle gang t move on past them.

Would Lien's running over the biker be seen as an intentional act or a negligent act?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
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http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2013 ... ion&page=2

Quote:
Personal Auto policy: The personal auto form (PAP) declares, “We will settle or defend, as we consider appropriate, any claim or suit asking for these damages. In addition to our limit of liability, we will pay all defense costs we incur. Our duty to settle or defend ends when our limit of liability for this coverage has been exhausted by payment of judgments or settlements. We have no duty to defend any suit or settle any claim for 'bodily injury' or 'property damage not covered under this policy.”


What are the implications here that can wreak financial havoc for Mr. Lien...

...or for any of us, if we were to strike an assailant in self defense, and when sued for damages we turn over the defense to ...say...our homeowner's liability policy?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:59 pm 
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What Determines the Duty to Defend?

Couch on Insurance (3rd Edition) states, "Although there are exceptions, as a general rule an insurer’s duty to defend the insured is determined primarily by the pleadings in the underlying lawsuit, without regard to their veracity, what the parties know or believe the alleged facts to be, the outcome of an underlying case, or the merits of the claim." But, what comprises the pleadings?

The majority view of the courts is that the factual allegations in the complaint, not the legal theories for recovery, determine the insurer’s duty. For example, a plaintiff may allege that a defendant pushed him, causing him to fall and become injured, which would be an intentional act with no coverage. Therefore, the plaintiff adds that the defendant negligently (legal theory of recovery) pushed him, hoping to trigger coverage even though the facts clearly show intent. The courts will usually not accept this pleading.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:15 am 
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The latest...why undercover cop at scene took three days to come forward?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10 ... chase?lite

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:53 am 
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Heating up now.

This well known Hollywood hot shot lawyer ( Mark something) was just on CNN with Anderson Cooper said:

Lien should have been arrested for hit and run.

The cyclist who stopped in front of Lien's SUV and looked back to the SUV trying to signal Lien to slow down because Lien was driving too fast on the road, Lien ran into him instead.

The undercover cops were banging on Lien's SUV trying to arrest him for hit and run.

There, case solved.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:41 am 
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Well, they are all wrong, as they don't or won't understand what Lien was going through at the moment of his fear for his life and the lives of his wife and daughter.

I'd like to see what they would do in the shoes of Lien. :cry:

Massad Ayoob, of LFI, is also a defense expert who has appeared before juries and 'educated' them and the lawyers about what really happens to a person in the grip of 'fight or flight' ...
Quote:
As fight or flight reflex kicks in during a deadly danger situation, the combatant experiences numerous body alarm reactions and altered perspectives.One's very "ability to think in a rational, creative, and reflective manner" is likely to be reduced or perhaps eliminated under mortal threat conditions.
This "will generally cause a massive block of the brain's ability to process thought functions."
The inability to process thought functions rationally and reflectively will have an obvious effect on one's ability to clearly sort out whether the situation is appropriate for the use of lethal force.



Lien may well have undergone Tunnel Vision, Temporary Blindness, and Auditory Exclusion ("tunnel hearing").


These are a result of a primeval decision in the cortex of the brain that "there is only one thing that concerns us now, destroying or escaping the thing that is attempting to destroy us....The eyes still see and the ears still hear, but the cortex of the brain is screening out anything that is extraneous."

Tunnel vision is a loss of peripheral vision. For example: "Your field of vision may narrow to mere inches and you may lose your depth perception.

Thus, tunnel vision makes the shooter concentrate so much on the perceived danger that he may not see other "bad guys" on his flanks or innocent bystanders behind or near to the threat he is concentrating on.


If you experience such physio-psychological aspects in a violent encounter -- and don't recognize them for what they are -- and recount your (distorted) perceptions to police, you can be in world of trouble when your case goes to court.

It will be interesting to see what is written in the police report. Though Lien was not charged by the police, what he may have said to them and what may be in the police report, will be used in the civil trial.

There is something else that may have affected the hapless Mr. Lien...it is Amaurosis Fugax (temporary blindness) -- while "visual white out" is relatively rare, what is commonly called "hysterical blindness" is less so.

Ayoob observes that the eyes have seen something so terrifying, the brain refuses to see it anymore. One upshot of this is that amaurosis fugax often translates into fleeing the scene of a violent engagement.

In almost every court, flight equals guilt. We know Ms Allred will play this card along with the others.

The legal theory is that the person who did right will stand his or her ground to explain as need be; the person who flees does so because there is culpability involved.

Common manifestations include remembering things out of sequence, trivial things looming large in the mind immediately after the incident, and important things being lost to short-term memory immediately after the incident.

A good defense Lawyer, and he will have to be good, will be able 'place' the judge and jury in the shoes of Lien at that moment of terror, make them experience similar manifestations and will educate them as to what happens in the mind of a person under such frightening circumstances.

Lien was under a massive shot of adrenaline in his system at the time he became aware of the extreme threat to his life and the lives of his wife and daughter.

He would have experienced gross, severe, dramatic, cataclysmic loss of fine motor coordination. Loss of dexterity and shaking of the limbs.

When something unpleasant happens that we don't expect adrenaline is dumped into the bloodstream in one go so that we enter a type of "overdrive state.”

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:02 am 
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Looking at this and trying to be honest with myself.

At the moment that biker slowed his bike down to make more room for his buddies to do tricks and crap on the road... at the moment he slowed down, motioned to the driver of the SUV to slow down, and physically impeded the movement of the SUV, road rage would have kicked in.

One, it is not likely that I would have slowed down except to avoid impact, and I would have flashed him and honked my horn to indicate that he could get hit if he kept it up.

Two, I would have had my wife on the phone with the police to report a huge biker gang impeding traffic (it's a crime).

Three, when I saw the huge biker gang on the road, I would have looked for the first available exit, and took it. I can stand adding some extra minutes to my trip if it means avoiding massive groups with great internal cohesion that may have a predilection to or no aversion to violence.

Of course, all of this is overruled by the fact that I wouldn't be driving in New York.

And if it would have been Alaska, a great many bikers would have been shot before they beat me with my empty gun, and that only after I pistol-whipped a few. And while they were beating me, my wife would have been shooting them with hers, because she wouldn't listen when I told her to drive away when I stepped out of the vehicle after being completely blocked in by something more solid than bikers (bikers alone would have only been a little bumpy in my GMC Yukon. Yes, I would run over as many as it took to see my family to safety. Where the Hell were those cops we called?).

The average person is completely unfamiliar with violence, so I can easily understand how somebody from the rabbit warren would have gone into complete panic mode after being surrounded by angry bikers.

Awareness: avoid biker gangs.
I failed this once. I had no idea there was a biker convention in Rapid City, ND one year when my family and I decided to go up and see Mt. Rushmore. Oops. A biker was shot less than a mile from our campsite. Yeah, we'll keep that in mind next time.

Road rage: working on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:08 am 
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Henry Tom
Quote:
The undercover cops were banging on Lien's SUV trying to arrest him for hit and run.

There, case solved.


OK...let's see...look at this...3 hours ago...

http://nypost.com/2013/10/07/bike-cop-j ... o-reveals/

Quote:
An off-duty undercover cop who claimed he took no active role as fellow bikers pulled a Manhattan dad from his SUV and beat him to a pulp actually furiously slapped the car’s back window so hard that it shattered at the height of the bloody road-rage attack, sources told The Post.

The cop, a seven-year veteran, had told investigators he didn’t help the injured man because he rode up to the scene as the beating was nearly over, sources said.


The development came as another biker who helped in driver Alexian Lien’s beat-down was arraigned in Manhattan Court on Tuesday.

Craig Wright, 29, of Brooklyn can allegedly be seen on video throwing punches through the shattered driver’s-side window of the 33-year-old victim’s Range Rover in front of Lien’s terrified wife and 2-year-old daughter. Wright is also seen allegedly kicking Lien outside the SUV. He was held on $100,000 bail Tuesday.

As for the undercover cop, disgusted law-enforcement sources said Monday that Internal Affairs Bureau higher-ups want to nail the officer.

“The cop is a total mope. F—ing embarrassment, ’’ one source seethed. “They should can him immediately. Anyone else who was even peripherally involved should be canned.”


Still, probers believe their hands are tied, sources said, because prosecutors declined to press ahead with the case against another biker, Allen Edwards, 43, of Queens, who allegedly punched the driver’s side rear window of Lien’s SUV before Lien was pummeled.

At the time, the chief of the Manhattan district attorney’s Trials Division, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, defended the move, saying, “Prematurely charging individuals with low-level crimes does not further the goals of the investigation and could weaken the cases we expect to bring against the perpetrators of serious crimes.”

The investigation is continuing, a source noted.

But the undercover cop will likely face internal charges. He didn’t tell his bosses he was with the bikers — much less at the crime scene — until more than three days after the Sept. 29 attack.

The unidentified cop has already been placed on modified duty and turned in his gun and badge.

“I think we all, no matter what your job is, have an obligation to help one another,’’ Mayor Bloomberg said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe’’ on Monday, in response to questioning about the officer’s actions. “And if you see somebody getting beaten up, you know, let’s go jump in and stop the fight.”

Cops are searching for at least two more suspects.

Meanwhile, Christopher Cruz, 28, who allegedly started the chain of events by slowing down his bike to let his pals ahead — leaving Lien to bump his car into him — said in an interview aired Monday that he felt no responsibility.

“I was looking over my shoulder to see where my friends were,” he told ABC News. “I wanted them to pull in front so I could follow them. I didn’t brake, but when I looked over my shoulder, my hand came off the throttle a little, but the driver didn’t slow down at all and bumped me.”


Yeah, right.

Lien will need one of the best defense lawyers to make experience all the Monday morning quarterbacks what Mr. Lien was going through while his wife and child were screaming in terror in the range rover.

'Les miserables' seems to fit this just right.

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