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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:20 pm 
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I like this guys approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:36 pm 
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Marcus brought me over here from my baseball mechanics thread.

I couldn't get the first clip to work. The second in Mr. Nakamatsu's dojo was very interesting indeed. What I note is one (1) student who has what Nakamatsu Sensei does by second nature with his mechanics. I find it interesting, Van, that you say Nakamatsu Sensei is a mechanical engineer. From one to another, I get what he's doing. Seeing him in this clip makes me think I'm on the right track. So much of what I am working on now is all about getting the core involved as he is able to do. (Thanks to Dana Sheets for transferring many of the concepts from him to me. She is special.)

If you want to see an example of what I'm talking about, look at 31:50 through 32:35. The student he's working with (on Sanseiryu) is very, very good. But he doesn't have the mechanics to do the final strike in Sanseiryu the way Nakamatsu Sensei does it. You see it done over and over the way Nakamatsu wants it done. Forget the arm... watch the belly. Watch the belt. Look at how the legs/hips/trunk provide the power.

You won't learn this overnight. Trust me... Getting others to use the core the way Nakamatsu Sensei does is the challenge.

And yes, Van, there are the moronic detractors. One of the worst is someone you and I know who now resides on this side of the pond. The lady doth protest too much, methinks; the insecurity streak is a mile wide. Those whose cores are weighted down by sheer lack of conditioning and discipline of diet will never get it. (I'm being nice...)

Good stuff. Thanks for posting this, Van.

Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Hi Bill,

Thanks for dropping by _ and for me, as you know, it is hard to be persuaded otherwise because of my athletic experiences where the concepts needed to be applied for maximum output or you simply would not make the team and or you would fall flat on your face on the field of competition.

To argue that Uechi__ Ryu is not a sport in the sense of body mechanics as we discuss, always left me puzzled, because the body can only move certain ways ...it is the way mother nature intended...for maximum efficiency.

However...whatever...we can accept to disagree...what else is new...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:41 pm 
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WAWEFORM

Quote:
One of these secret spots is right along the side of the neck (on either the left or right side).

In this area, there are several pressure points that when slapped in the right way (it's really not hard), overloads the brain's circuitry and causes an instant knockout to your opponent.

But in order to pull this off, you must bring power up from your lower body.

It's not about "bodyweight"... it's about what my friend Russell calls "waveform".

You see, this knockout move starts with your hip on the same side you're slapping from.

Again, it's not difficult - if you know it - and the move itself will be invisible to the person you're defending against so they'll never even know what hit them (until they wake up later and you're long gone).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:59 pm 
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I'm not a fan of Evan Pantazi's chi-speak or the no-touch KOs. But I saw him do an application of that final strike in Sanseiryu that opened my eyes. Brilliant! Application hidden in plain sight! The person he did it on didn't wake up for a few minutes.

And yes... body mechanics matter the way closing a partially-closed car door needs core body mechanics. It's the same thing, only you start at the center and have it radiate out to the periphery.

Remind me to show you. ;-)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Bill,

I might have seen Evan's application during his many seminars I attended but I don't recall exactly as he produced a number of KOs using Uechi techniques.

Can you describe it in detail?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Bill,

I might have seen Evan's application during his many seminars I attended but I don't recall exactly as he produced a number of KOs using Uechi techniques.

Can you describe it in detail?

I'd be happy to, Van.

First... I am not a fan of the "fingers of death" attitude with this crane strike. Bless his heart... I have met Shinjo Kiyohide and worked out in a class where he was the guest at a seminar. (Thank you, Marty Dow.) We all know The son of the great Shinjo Seiyu is the real deal, whether it be as sparring champion, karate superman, or today's representative of "authentic" Ryuyu fighting arts. But I have seen him try to break boards using the crane beak. He eventually pulls it off, but sometimes after several tries. And when you think about how prone the distal joints of the fingers are to osteoarthritis... and when you see Kiyohide san's fingers mangled (most probably from years of competition), my sniff test says no way.

So either he doesn't have the right idea, or maybe the masters are hiding a special technique from the gaijin. I'm going with the second one because I really respect the Shinjo family and I know Kiyohide is a very, very smart and adaptable fighter. I also know he's quite the show man. Another time... ;-)

When I saw Evan's interpretation, it was just one of those things that immediately made sense to me. All the planets are aligned. With proper mechanics, even an older master can do this with ease. (Inexperienced karateka not so much.)

FIRST AND FOREMOST...

The crane "striking" motion is not the technique. It is the set-up in the way that the Seisan groin strikes are merely set-up techniques. The KO technique follows logically from the human body response to that original technique.

In the case of the Seisan groin strikes, it makes a normal male bend over. What you do after the body bends over and forward like that depends upon which foot is forward. Both situations are set up in Seisan, and the appropriate coup de gras is suggested (but not explicitly done) in the subsequent motion.

The Sanseiryu crane beak is the exact same scenario.

Behind the collar bone resides the brachial plexus. It's a bit of a nerve intersection where 5 nerves coming off the spinal chord convert into the 5 nerves going down the arm. The collar bone is there partially to create a triangular structure for the shoulder, and partially to protect that plexus.

Image

The actual first technique IMO shouldn't be a "strike" from the North Star to Hades. Rather in a grappling situation one can calmly reach forward from your right to their right (or your left to their left), find the collar bone with the palm/fingers, and then start digging in and attempting to press one or more nerves within the plexus against the back of the collar bone. The natural reaction of the body is to tilt the head and jaw towards the owie.

Look at classic pictures of the finishing position of that crane beak. But don't look at the fingers; look at the end bones of the wrist. When you do that curl-around-the-collar-bone thingie with the fingers, the end of the ulnar bone in the wrist starts to protrude.

Image

As the person presents a stone-solid jaw to you - all while tilting the head towards that wrist - you are set up to do the coup de gras. Basically what you do is snap the end of that ulnar bone against the magic button on the side of the jaw. This sets up a lateral jaw hit which causes contre coup, or the brain smacking up against the back of the skull.

The only way to make this work is to do a whole-body-wave motion the way Nakamatsu is trying to show his students in that video. Just what is he doing with his core, and why is that necessary with a finger strike? Well the former has to be learned over time, and the latter is all about creating a lateral smack upside the jaw. The rotational forces on the skull do the rest.

Hope that makes sense.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Thanks Bill.

Clarification:
Quote:
in a grappling situation one can calmly reach forward from your right to their right (or your left to their left), find the collar bone with the palm/fingers, and then start digging in and attempting to press one or more nerves within the plexus against the back of the collar bone. The natural reaction of the body is to tilt the head and jaw towards the owie.


So in a grapple you go from your right to his right then strike with the wrist, essentially like a fishtail strike, to his right jaw?

But in the Nakamatsu strike, you see the kakushiken elevating up high and then down into the left, behind the clavicle I assume, side of the opponent after a presupposed block.

This particular application would suggest a deep plunge of the fingers behind the collar bone.

Gushi sensei, at his seminar, explained that the very last movement of the kata, should not be a block as we do it...but a strike with the left palm against the right shoulder of the opponent as the right fingers tear out the clavicle.

What do you make of it?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:08 am 
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This thread segways nicely into this one if you dig , we were discussing the same clavicular notch and gouging in the applications for the cranes beak ..... Laird also referenced the wrist strike seems great minds think alike 8O

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22092&start=15

Very nice move with the reach across , I often do it as shown by Patrick McCarthy , when someone has a same side under hook you wrap there arm and brace on the other arm which is gouging the clavicular notch , this locks the arm and braces the gouge and they drop rapidly , the striking dynamic is a great tip and so easily applied , Thanks Bill !!!!

I agree the wave dynamic is necessary for short power , but as the muscle contractions become ingrained the movements can become so small and efficeint they are hardly noticeable , to me this is what they Chinese concept of fajing really is , and I like the sneeze analogy Van often uses to have everything fire at once but of course in the correct sequence to create the explosive force.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:34 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
So in a grapple you go from your right to his right then strike with the wrist, essentially like a fishtail strike, to his right jaw?

Precisely. The angles are different but it's all the same.

I don't know what I was thinking when I said hitting with the tip of the ulna. That's what you get when you're typing rather than working with a body where it's about feel. Actually you were thinking as I do - you hit with the tip of the radius. But whatever... the important thing is to hit the jaw on the side so that the head spins rapidly around. The cranial cavity is very good at filtering out direct shots to the jaw, but not so good at the lateral ones. The violent head-spinning motions are the ones most likely to result in a KO. Again... it causes contrecoup.

This explains the phenomenon. Only instead of thinking front and back of skull in a linear fashion, think front-side of jaw and back of skull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury

Van Canna wrote:
But in the Nakamatsu strike, you see the kakushiken elevating up high and then down into the left, behind the clavicle I assume, side of the opponent after a presupposed block.

This particular application would suggest a deep plunge of the fingers behind the collar bone.

Yea...

First... I'm not paying attention to his hand; I'm watching his core.

Second... I've seen the internal anatomy, and understand the physics.

Third... Let's get real for a minute. When you're all jacked up, are you *really* going to plunge from a long distance away, hit that slot perfectly, and get that nerve? With no fine motor coordination and compromised complex motor coordination?

And to what end? A nerve with nothing behind it just moves. But squash that nerve up against a bone, and now you get someone's attention. Try running your hiraken knuckle up and down your radius near the wrist to get the "electricity" effect. It's the same principle with a tiny, distal nerve branch of that plexus. Same with the "funny bone." In both cases, you trap the nerve against a bone (radial in the first case, ulnar nerve in the second case) and smash it. But hit that nerve with something soft behind it and it just moves. The tissue is elastic, so there is no consequence. It's like hitting a rubber band in the air and expecting to cause damage to it. Nope...

Visualize what you're trying to do, Van. Even if blinded you can touch the chest, find the collar bone, roll the fingers over it, get them behind the plexus, and then squash it up against the back of the collar bone.

Or you can just drive a blade down there. That works...

Van Canna wrote:
Gushi sensei, at his seminar, explained that the very last movement of the kata, should not be a block as we do it...but a strike with the left palm against the right shoulder of the opponent as the right fingers tear out the clavicle.

What do you make of it?

Good luck with that! :-D I can't do it. Good on him if he can.

I *can* however visualize using the shuto to hit on the clavicle and break it. That disables the arm attached to that side, as you've destroyed the foundation. You need good focus to do it, but it's do-able.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:40 am 
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I was looking for a use of this technique online. At one time I could find it; now I can't. Bummer!

But...

I found a Goju guy using our hirakens in ways that most don't think. Think the double hirakens forward. I often tell people that our "pointy" techniques are all dual-use techniques. The hirakens or the shokens can be thought of as either pokes or grabs.

Here's a case where essentially the finger tips of the hand and the tips of the thumbs are applied to the clavicular slot and suprasternal notch simultaneously, causing quite the synergistic effect. (Rory Miller is a big fan of what he calls "stacking", and teaches it in his seminars.) Can you see our Uechi hirakens there? The tips of the fingers reach behind the clavicle and squash the brachial plexi; the thumbs go into the suprasternal notch and trigger the gag reflex.

TOM HILLS DOJO - Goju Karate - Siafa Kata bunkai

Because he's going both sides at the same time, he doesn't get the head tilt effect. Rather you just get a knee buckling effect.

But again... IT'S JUST A SET-UP!!!

- Bill


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