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 Post subject: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
The old saying: "Old age and cunning will overcome youth and skills."

So, I have been teaching my self defense students (especially the older or not-so-big ones) to use eye jabs as a first surprise move in a defensive attack situation.

During my workout today I checked the accuracy (or my own accuracy) on eye jabbing. I am 5-6, I set Bob at 6-3 as usual, and I am not a young guy anymore.

I did 50 eye jabs. I missed three times. Totally missed both eyes. 94% accuracy in a dojo when I was calm as a clam. Terrible and unacceptable indeed.

One would think that at least one of the ten fingers should hit at least one of the two eyes every time. Well, not with a 94% accuracy in a calm environment. Yes, may be it is only me but don't be so sure of yourself. In a real fight you can't count on you not missing. We see accidental eye jabs in MMA or boxing matches all the time but, that is why they call them accidental. You can almost count on those accidental stuff happening to you only.

I along with many posters have advocated taking minimum or no risk in a street self defense situation. Anything requiring any accuracy should not be the top choice for a self defense move. It is not like a tournament competition where you know a referee will stop the fight if something bad happens.

So, my first choice for a self defense attack against a big guy (I only think big) is no longer an eye jab. It still may be a subsequent move but not the first.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:35 pm 
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I practice eye jabs when I do stick work on Poor Bob, I use a lot of stabbing movements with the sticks as well as the usual strikes.
When I hit Bob, I like to use boxing type movements as a starter but I attack different targets I Jab to the throat, then hook to the temple, or even a straight right to the throast. I also like to use attacks from an unguarded standing stance.... I don't use finger strikes to the eyes, but i do the shoken to the eyes and around that area.but I basically have the same philosophy as you. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:42 am 
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I like to teach a circular clockwise (right hand- counterclockwise - left hand) movement where the fingers brush across the eyes rather than a poking action. Most people will not be able to poke another's eyes, which will account for lack of accuracy. The scratching of the eyes is very painful and since, in the mind of the person using it, won't blind the person, chances of it being a successful hit (or even used when needed) are greater.

I've taught many self-defense classes to both women and men and am amazed at how many people can hit a "Bob" practice dummy but will not be able to actually hit another person. . . even in a practice setting.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:11 pm 
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I have changed from eye jabs to teaching a palm strike blast to the nose area as a first defensive strike. No accuracy needed. Blast upward at the nose only if it is a desperate situation.

Yes, George, actually I have been teaching the use of our circular blocks mainly not blocks but for attacking the face area. A ripping movement. If it gets one or both eyes, even better.

(From my hospital room. Think I will post my experience of a TURP for you tough guys out there who might not be able to avoid this---avoid at all cost :( )

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Had to look that operation up Henry. . . please let us know how you are doing and best of luck for a simple and very effective procedure.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Yes, simple one would think. Today is my 4th day in the hospital. They sent me home the day of surgery but I had to go to the ER the next morning. Been here since. They may or may not release me today.

This brings me back to my comment on accidental eye jabs. Don't expect yourself to be the lucky one on anything. Don't expect yourself to be so lucky to pull off one of those movements that requires any sort of accuracy. The accidental eye jabs will only happen to you. Same as what the doc told me regarding the surgery. 95% of the patients have no problem after surgery--- I am the 5% right?

The doc said no gym for 6 weeks at least. I guess that's how tai chi got started. I will be doing my Sanchin and katas slow taichi speed for a couple of months.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Hi Henry,

Sorry to hear of your woes. Life is always full of surprises and Murphy's law constantly a monkey on our backs. Best of luck with your recovery.

As to eye strikes, I agree with you and George.

I also prefer not to 'poke' at the eyes. If 'at all' I personally would choose the eye 'gauge' that follows a palm strike as in seisan.

Another way that I find gives me the 'tacticle feedback' to striking the eyes, and the one I practice on Bob, is to reach out for the head of the opponent with two hands, my palms in and thumbs on top, as if catching a soccer ball.

Then as I dig my fingers into the jaw line, I rotate my thumbs up and into the eyes to penetrate them.

Teaching this stuff to students can be a nightmare though.

1. If we miss the eyes or just scratch them, without achieving a 'stop' the opponent will become more enraged and will justify extreme violence out of fear of being blinded.

2. Anytime we go for the eyes, the law will charge us with 'mahyem' e.g. "The offense of willfully maiming or crippling a person."

3.A legal nightmare...not only we are at risk of a lenghty jail sentence_ and 'restitution' as ordered by a judge...

but the subsequent civil suit can bring us to our knees financially, even if you have the right insurance coverage that will defend and indemnify...

Which I am willing to bet that most reading this...do not have, in spite of my discussion of this very critical aspect of any martial arts practice.Which is another form of denial.

If you don't have that protection: best forget about using your martial art in 'self defense'...


4.A plaintiff's attorney, will also go for the 'shotgun approach' meaning even the teacher will be named as 'wrong doer' in the civil action, for having taught such stuff.

~~

The argument is that we would never use such a tactic, unless in fear of our lives or grievous bodily harm...true... but NOT as clear as black and white as one would think.

Best to ingrain other ways to 'stop' an attacker, aside from eye strikes.

The Bob dummy is useful in ingraining 'targeting' giving you a better chance to 'connect' with a target in the chaos of combat... it also gives us feedback on our supposed hitting power...which mainly is practiced by 'air strikes'...

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:24 pm 
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I don't think that you could kill anyone with an eye jab, I remember having a small twig blow in my eye and I really panicked and was rubbing my eye for ages....so, I think it probably would work in a real fight.as to the business of how the men in blue see this..that to me is like worrying about ecology when getting attacked by a polar bear.better to deal with the bear first IMHO


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:23 am 
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Firstly and most Importantly sorry for your Health issues Henry , I hope your doing well and make a rapid recovery

As for the eyes , its an interesting topic , I'll share my view

I don't think folks really explore these things, hence they never become tools , and it is a hard thing to explore unless you have the perfect group and environment for safety and respect.

I don't think the eyes are fight stoppers , but they are sure horrible to get hit .

As for gouging out the eyeballs , I call BS , I'm sure it's possible , but it isn't really likely.

According to Lee Morrison the eyeball is surrounded by a sphincter !!!! , I'm sure we all know what that is ..... whether medically accurate the results the same it contracts and protects the eye extremely well to a gouge , its going to take a serious effort and ability to pluck it out.

I've shared the story before about how a student of Laird's trained with an excellent RBSD instructor , and learnt excellent things , but also grew the belief that eye gouging/strikes were a fight ender , and while I don't recommend it I finally talked him into testing it and offered up my eye to gouge (having been gouged before and being confident of the result) . While he gouged I sat there and explained calmly what my attacking options where , sure my eye hurt , and it was a little red for a while (but not severely) but he got my point , what I did insist on though was he could not try and scratch it .

The reaction to this story is always insightful , they either want to try themselves or insinuate there was a lack of commitment or technique , ahh well , guess they've tried it and there mileage varies

now lacerating the eye is another story , you can force past the eyelid , and rake that nail across, nice pain response ,but more importantly nice withdraw response , that few inches and you can swing that elbow .

As for striking , sure , aim small miss small ..... but I don't think there really power strike things , I like a shoken up the cheek sort of like an upper cut , I either get the nerve bundle under the cheekbone , or the slide into the eye , these are clinch strikes to me , coming up and under , you can use different hand moves but the raising strikes from seisan come to mind as an alternate. feed them out create some initial space if your getting manhandled so you can feed your strikes. It's not rocket science no-one likes there face ripped at .... but its just an entry not a fight stopper.

On a side note if im grabbing the head I usually grab the ears with the fingers and the thumb goes to the cheekbones rather than the eyes, better grip and better response IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:48 pm 
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Location: Banff AB
Stryke wrote:


As for gouging out the eyeballs , I call BS , I'm sure it's possible , but it isn't really likely.

I've shared the story before about how a student of Laird's trained with an excellent RBSD instructor , and learnt excellent things , but also grew the belief that eye gouging/strikes were a fight ender , and while I don't recommend it I finally talked him into testing it and offered up my eye to gouge (having been gouged before and being confident of the result) . While he gouged I sat there and explained calmly what my attacking options where , sure my eye hurt , and it was a little red for a while (but not severely) but he got my point , what I did insist on though was he could not try and scratch it .


translations:

learnt= learned

ender= not sure but it has nothing to do with sex, might mean the end of it.

init hasn't appeared yet but it's a matter of time :lol: , it means "is it not" or something like that...

terrible what the Kiwineese have done with the language.

Marcus I have fond memories of that day! Watching Ryan's reaction as we both encouraged him to stuff a finger or thumb as deep as he could into your eye socket was priceless. (Strange schit goes on in the Elliott house hold if you dare sit on the couch.)

If I'm not mistaken this is the same day you looked at me all weird and proclaimed I've never gone into the beer chiller to get warm before! Your introduction to a fine oak aged ale as well!

I have very fond memories of that trip...even remember a very hary Specolli showing up at the airport with a serious mountain man beard and dread locks.WTF??? I'm sure he fit in well with the rest of the police officers. :mrgreen:

Good days they were!


Quote:
According to Lee Morrison the eyeball is surrounded by a sphincter !!!! , I'm sure we all know what that is ..... whether medically accurate the results the same it contracts and protects the eye extremely well to a gouge , its going to take a serious effort and ability to pluck it out.


I agree with Lee's take on this....I'm also damn glad you didn't bring it up the first time we posted about this little experiment. I'm sure the politically correct crowd way back then would have demanded they had a right to have you test the integrity of their sphincter!!!!


Quote:
On a side note if I'm grabbing the head I usually grab the ears with the fingers and the thumb goes to the cheekbones rather than the eyes, better grip and better response IMHO.
I go for the chin jaw handle and the eye sockets to spin the ball. If I miss I end up at your target and just keep trying!

To the layman the head is connected to the neck which is connected to the spine...etc. Lock it up you got control.

Marcus I'm going to have to go to the bar I have no meat puppets these days...ears and cheek bones...are you saying rotate pinkies down thumbs up under the cheeks and rotate to lock....I'm intrigued I miss experimentation.

Wanted Meat puppet no experience required phone......403 - 762- ECT! :lol: Payment free FEUR Lessons!

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:32 am 
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Hey mate not sure Id use me as an example of any language .... :lol: :lol:

Having said that learned is perhaps the worst of the americanese words , forget sometimes that Canadians dabble in the different form of English.

It conjures up hillbilly's and book lear'nin for some reason

And Init , is probably more from Ray's neck of the wood 8)

Quote:
Marcus I'm going to have to go to the bar I have no meat puppets these days...ears and cheek bones...are you saying rotate pinkies down thumbs up under the cheeks and rotate to lock....I'm intrigued I miss experimentation


I'm basically just c-clamping it , using the tips of the fingers/thumb and not the pad , of course you have to have pressure on the melon with both hands to secure it but then just gouge in and make them feel like your going to tear there face off.

Some of that Banff-ryu must of stuck :evilbat:

the tips is great for just grabbing the ears too , forget the pads no grip IMHO , but with the tips you get plenty of leverage.


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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Umm, you guys are talking in codes :-)

Stryke
Quote:
I don't think the eyes are fight stoppers , but they are sure horrible to get hit .


Although I mentioned that I will not be using eye jab as a primary first move, I agree with Stryke and let me assure everyone that it is effective if you don't miss. It may not be a fight stopper or able to "kill anyone" with eye jabs, but just as with any techniques one must (or be ready to) follow up with other moves. We all know that, or should.

We saw the effectiveness of accidental eye jabs in MMA matches often. I personally witnessed an accidental eye jab in a dojo sparring. Devastating may I emphasize! I thought the tough dude (he's tough!) was going to p---- on the floor. Unfortunately if we consciously eye jab someone in self defense, the probability of missing is just too high.

Jorvik
Quote:
I don't think that you could kill anyone with an eye jab,


I see Jorvik's point on eye jabs not being a kill move, but Van's advice on insurance may sound strange to folks outside of the US but, being where we are, people just can't wait to sue.

BTW, thanks for the comments on my surgery. Just came back from the hospital again. Having some set back. As I mentioned, don't do the TURP.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:49 pm 
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This will shock you to no end :(

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... moved.html

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Horrific and sad, but not surprised.

What "humans" do to others.

Full of the stuff in our "civilized" history--- Nanking Massacre, My Lai Massacre, German war crimes, etc etc, --- plus your daily news.

Humans and animals are separated only by a fine line, some aren't (or weren't) even humans at all. Some are walking the streets now ready to blow somebody's head off for no reasons; punch someone out just for fun; stick a knife in someone just to hear the scream----

The way it has been going, I am afraid that hell is running out of space.

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 Post subject: Re: Eye Jabs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Quote
"I see Jorvik's point on eye jabs not being a kill move, but Van's advice on insurance may sound strange to folks outside of the US but, being where we are, people just can't wait to sue. "

taking the second point first, you are right we don't see the suing business as much in the UK, and there are also lots of other things that are culturally different which people from other countries/cultures don't get. People assume it is the same when it isn't, what the police/prison officers do as an example, their duties and the amount of information they have are totally different over here..as to the second point

I think Van's forum is unique on the net as it covers all aspects of a confrontation, there are things that I would do in a situation where /I was threatened and things that I would do if I was in a fighting as in boxing/wrestling situation ,,,,,,,,,,,so some tactics/methods are suited to one set of circumstances and not to others....when you are in a situation to use a "one off" type of technique is where I would use an eye jab, or maybe a head-butt or a bitchslap.then I would maybe run :lol: :lol: and try to get away .but in a stand up punching scenario like a streetfight /I would be less inclined to consider it as an option


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