Seisan bunkai

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Seisan bunkai

Postby Van Canna » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:00 pm

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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:59 pm

This is Gushi Sensei's trademark bunkai. I'd recognize it if I saw it on the moon.

(Yes, that was him adding the 3rd party strike.)

Okinawa's "vanilla" Seisan bunkai is what it is. I no longer get my panties in a bunch about certain sequences that frankly make me whince (e.g. jumping swords or sticks).

However...

Gushi Sensei absolutely nailed the sequence from 4:15 to 4:40. Once you see it, you don't want to go back to Okinawa's "vanilla" Seisan bunkai.

If you saw my Fuzhou Suparinpei, it would confirm that this is the likely "dominant" interpretation. Seisan has a kick followed by a knee and some lower thrusts. Fuzhou Suparinpei has a left knee followed by a jumping right knee, a drag-across, and some thrusts. Gushi sensei's interpretation works for both of them. The principle is the same; the techniques are only slightly different.

And there's something very unique about the way you do the "bent over" thrust in the Fuzhou Suparinpei that causes a paradigm shift in your Seisan bent-over thrusts. But I digress. ;-)

I miss Gushi. May he rest in peace.

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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Josann » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:12 am

Had the great pleasure to train with Master Gushi at my home dojo, Joe Graziano's Okinawan Karate, in Milford, Mass. Joe was Gushi's senior student. Joe teaches both applications and we do both bunkais. He encourages us to also make up our own.

I've had great teachers and seniors over the past 24 years, but it was Master Gushi who opened my eyes to how practical our style can be. Joe continues that tradition.


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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:44 pm

I think one of the worst bunkai apps is when we think we can stop a committed take down shoot by a big opponent with the knee strike.

I have a student who is one of those natural strong men...that will sober anybody up with that 'technique assumption'...

You will never know the kind of opponent you will draw in a street fight...if you are 'lucky' you may end up drawing that strong man the police is after...

He broke into a business down the cape, and picked up a 'boxy' 250 pounds safe, not bolted to the floor, and carried it up a flight of stairs and out the door.

You tell me what 'bunkai' will work against that guy...and why he will feel your punches and kicks, whatever, you think you can throw at him.

Practice stepping 'off line' and stay alive.
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Josann » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:08 am

[quote="Van Canna"]I think one of the worst bunkai apps is when we think we can stop a committed take down shoot by a big opponent with the knee strike.

I have a student who is one of those natural strong men...that will sober anybody up with that 'technique assumption'...uote]

I believe I worked out one evening with you at Joe's dojo and I think I know the youg guy you are speaking of. Agree, while our skills may be better than a guy like him, that's about all that's better.I have checked my skills training realistically with 2 of my own 20 something son's, 1 has mma training and the other is a competitive powerlifter. A lot of what I "might" do was quickly revealed as what I couldn't do.

This brings up the idea that we should be more soft in movements as we get older, think pre-empt and get the hell out of there.

To think we'd spar toe to toe with a guy like your student is a myth. Enjoy the fantasy, but good luck if you ever do that in a confrontation.

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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Van Canna wrote:Practice stepping 'off line' and stay alive.

We can make the existing kata bunkai move work as-is with that principle. You stiff-arm the *side* of the approaching head. If you don't move him, he moves you aside. Then when you are safely off the line of force, you can try this move.

Sprawling works better against a shoot. That's the standard response in grappling. If you squint your eyes in Sanseiryu, you'll see that the concept of a sprawl exists in the deeper stances. The whole point is to spread your legs so they can't take you down from under. Or as you said... you can always play bull and the toreador.

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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Van Canna » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:13 pm

.


I agree Josann…for me it is all about realistic chances of any technique working on the street under duress and the effect of the chemical cocktail…especially when up against brute force with malevolent intent. On many attackers doted with brute strength, blocks and counters as we know them, simply do not work. A hard truth to get across some time to parishioners who really believe in the 'magic' of their techniques but never really been against a street beastly opponent. Rory Miller keeps making this point over and over, but not too many believe it.

In the paper this morning you may have noticed an article about a 44 year old disabled person with a cane attacked from behind by some punk who then beat him with his own cane. The article goes on to warn that older people are being attacked at an alarming rate in subway stations/trains but more so on buses.

Bill,

I agree. The sprawl being the best against a shoot, but not too many Uechi-ka can execute it, especially as they get older.

That move of the bunkai, when I do teach it, I use the same stiff arm 'sweep away' while stepping off line…I do not teach the knee strike at the same time the shoot comes in…I teach the knee strike when the opponent is down, after the 'stiff arm' and tries to get up or come at your legs from a downed position.

But the very best way we found in practice, is to learn to sense body language of the opponent about to shoot in on you, and to foil him by a quick side step and 'spin' while either grabbing him and slamming him into the ground or against something…or striking the back of his head as he plunges by you.

All the off line and spin outs we practice are found, as you know, in our hojo undo and kata…the moves in between the moves that not too many practice.

Couple of my students have already prevailed in the street using these concepts and have been thankful of the practice plus the impact training focus of my classes, instead of punching and kicking air.
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:06 pm

It's scary how we are starting to think alike over time. :-D
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Josann » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:27 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:It's scary how we are starting to think alike over time. :-D


Not scary at all. This is a good thing. I'd me more scared if we weren't!

Van, Joe often states "you have to be able to hit things," and mentions pre-emption quite often.

"Just get out of the way" is good advice.


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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Stryke » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:44 am

This brings up the idea that we should be more soft in movements as we get older, think pre-empt and get the hell out of there.

To think we'd spar toe to toe with a guy like your student is a myth. Enjoy the fantasy, but good luck if you ever do that in a confrontation.


Just the absolute truth , I would replace the concept of older however with better

if you are not learning these lessons you are not getting better , you are not confronting your mortality and you are just plain deluded.

Practice stepping 'off line' and stay alive.


if your not learning how to fit blend , avoid , what are you learning , smash everything gets old , you will eventually meet the immovable object or just grind yourself to oblivion , all us old timers (tounge in cheek compared to some of my esteemed colleagues here) should know this. Youth vs experience should be unwinnable if you actually learnt from experience.

But it gets us all I guess.

It's scary how we are starting to think alike over time. :-D


Its refreshing and the only measure , the things that make me take notice are when folks choose different routes and come to the same conclusion ... its a good indicator of truth .


I know I added little , but couldn't help but comment on a very good thread/discussion , thank you.
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Stryke » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:49 am

Van as an aside I must agree deal with the shoot then execute the knee

actually this is a pretty good rule , use movement and positioning and then apply the kata moves

I honestly think when they made the katas they took for granted that folks would use basic movement and understanding , and just recorded the finishing bits.

I think they took common sense and understanding of violence as a given , and passed on the rest assuming fighters would be looking for answers .

As modern students with different life experiences perhaps sometimes need to look more at the common sense and understanding of violence.

Which to me has been what your page has always been about.
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:57 pm

On the philosophy of getting off the line of force...

Love your comments, Marcus. Yes... we choose not to meet force with force as we get *smarter*. It just so happens that we do that as we get *older*. Or maybe the right word is *wiser*.

To that point...

One of my fellow graduates from the University of Virginia, Thomas Jones, set a record for the most number of games started as a running back without interruption due to being on the injured list. And as a retired NFL athlete, he's a member of the elite "10,000 yards" club (of rushing in an NFL game). Towards the end of his career, Thomas said his secret was learning *NOT* to meet oncoming tacklers with direct hits. Instead he maneuvered and spun out as much as possible. The fact that he did this and was able to join an elite club of high-rushers speaks volumes.

This isn't the dojo where we are polite. This is the gladiator field where 250-pound athletes (if you're lucky) come flying at you with maximum speed and/or force - play after play after play. One of our own Uechika, Andre Tippette, can speak to what that's like.

See the following article (and nice video) about Thomas Jones in retirement. It's quite sobering.

..... Former NFL player wants brain studied

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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby fivedragons » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:20 am

Stryke: "I know I added little , but couldn't help but comment on a very good thread/discussion , thank you"

You have a clarity of vision that stands out in contrast with the everyday fog of emotion and ego. I think you have something to add. 8)
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby fivedragons » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:22 am

delete-pointless rambling that wouldn't make any sense, unless we were all having a drink 'round the fire-
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Re: Seisan bunkai

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:20 pm

There is too much reliance on block and counter in our training…and very little in continuous tenshin and off line [off the X] training to allow the concept to ingrain properly.

For me is a no brainer after my years of soccer and tournament competition where you see the fallacy of standing your ground, especially against heavy opponents rushing you with great momentum.

In my classes I also have a student stand in very dim light with his back turned to several big powerful 'attackers' … positioned at different angles behind him…

I then give a 'go sign' to one or several opponents to rush the student with any technique they want, including swinging a baseball bat, and watch to see if the student is able to detect an attack from his peripheral vision and how fast and accurately he can get off line to position in a flanking angle to the opponent while avoiding a rush that could kill him on the street.

Practicing this over and over we 'discover' so many 'training holes' that are befuddling.
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