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 Post subject: From survival magazine
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:36 pm 
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recently read a letter from a man who was forced to kill a man who was trying to attack him.

I don't know what caused the attack in the first place, but here's an excerpt from the letter (below).

It holds a very important lesson for you...

"I was involved in a self-defense homicide where I killed my attacker with
a knife. It really looked bad [in court] for a while and it appeared to the
arresting officer that I was attempting to flee. The prosecutor in court
wanted to know why I tried to run away - I was running for a pay phone to
call the police! That point helped to acquit me and the jury found in my
favor."

The point here is that your actions AFTER you're forced to shoot in self defense (or any other attack that leads to death) are just as important in how to prove your innocence in court.

As we say in the "Bulletproof Defense" DVD, you do not have to have committed a crime to go to prison.

If you're ever forced to defend yourself - especially if you must take a life to save your own - you must show that your intent was not to hide your actions.

Don't drag the body into your home. This is a common myth that is almost guaranteed to get you a "guilty" verdict.


Don't put a knife in his hand to make it look "more" like an attack. Watch a single episode of CSI and you'll realize modern technology will place that knife rightfully in your own hand.


Don't run away and wait to call 9-1-1. If you delay your reporting of the attack, it may look like you were taking time to make up a story and you WILL be asked, "why did it take you so long to report your actions when there was a store just 100 ft. away from where you killed this poor father of 3?"

Find the fastest way to call for help once you've reached a safe location and tell the 911 operator, "Someone tried to kill me!".

Don't go into full details of the event - just give them your location... that you're not sure if you're safe... and to please send help fast.

Yours in survival...
Jeff Anderson


I have the 'bulletproof defense' DVD-by the well known Peyton Quinn...

There stuff in there we martial artists don't even know it exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:58 am 
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I think most people really don't understand that self defence is an affirmative defence....

you have admitted to a crime and you must prove it was reasonable

don't admit anything and get a lawyer .


Quote:
If you're ever forced to defend yourself - especially if you must take a life to save your own - you must show that your intent was not to hide your actions.


you must show your intent ... pretty much guilty until proven innocent if you take this route?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
you have admitted to a crime and you must prove it was reasonable

No... not in this country with our Constitution. You have admitted to violence, and you must be able to convince a jury that it was justifiable.

This is key, and very clever.

Quote:
Find the fastest way to call for help once you've reached a safe location and tell the 911 operator, "Someone tried to kill me!".

Don't go into full details of the event - just give them your location... that you're not sure if you're safe... and to please send help fast.

Other mantras I make my students repeat again and again are...

1) I was in fear of my life (or personal safety), and

2) I really want to tell you everything, but I need first to talk with my attorney.

Also... if it's obvious that you've caused considerable physical harm, then be the first to call for an ambulance for the injured. It shows a genuine concern for human life, and that call will be recorded. Perceptions matter.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:54 am 
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No... not in this country with our Constitution. You have admitted to violence, and you must be able to convince a jury that it was justifiable.

This is key, and very clever.


You caught wrong words but the point is the same.

Must be able to convince ... that's the key point , you are no longer innocent until proven guilty , you have admitted the act (they will probably dress as a crime) and now you have to prove your justification (read innocence)

we can get clever with the words , but my point was if you claim self defence , you've admitted your violent act , now its your word against theirs and the burden of proof is pretty firmly on you , they no longer have to prove the act to anywhere near the same standard.

and whatever you say can only be used against you , if used to defend yourself what you say will be hear say nothing more.

get a lawyer and shut up , maybe ask for medical attention as well

they key is establishing intent and yes ringing for assistance and reporting maybe the way to go.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:06 am 
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Stryke, good questions and good answers by bill.

Giving the particulars of what you may have done in self defense to responding police officers may well be used against you, so, as you say, you have admitted to something that next you must defend in a court of law.

This may happen when you say something under the emotional turmoil following your survival situations while still in the grip of adrenaline that will cause, as Mas Ayoob terms:diarhhea of the mouth, totally disconnected from the brain.

This is a serious problem because any type of Combat is a ''traumatic psychic "shift." where even trained people can have difficulty applying physical and emotional 'training'…

Yet there has to be an affirmation of 'justification' for what the police will observe at the scene of your 'survival' i.e., self defense.

1. Legally as an affirmative defense, self defense must be pled in a timely fashion lest it be waived, according to what we read.
Quote:
In an affirmative defense, the defendant affirms that the condition is occurring or has occurred but offers a defense that bars, or prevents, the plaintiff's claim. An affirmative defense is known, alternatively, as a justification, or an excuse, defense.

[2] Consequently, affirmative defenses limit or excuse a defendant's criminal culpability or civil liability.
A clear illustration of an affirmative defense is self defense.

[3] In its simplest form, a criminal defendant may be exonerated if he can demonstrate that he had an honest and reasonable belief that another's use of force was unlawful and that the defendant's conduct was necessary to protect himself.

[4] Most affirmative defenses must be pled in a timely manner by a defendant in order for the court to consider them, or else they are considered waived by the defendant's failure to assert them.


This is good reading:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/you ... ain-silent


Attorney Andrew Branca writes
Quote:
the difference between the burden of production–which the defendant DOES bear for purposes of self-defense, but which is merely a minimal showing of evidence to allow the issue to be heard by the jury–and the burden of persuasion–which is born by the state to DISPROVE self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense


What is recommended, as Bill points out, is to master the mantra that you were in fear of your life or grievous bodily harm, to relate the simple why of it, point out to any weapons or disparity of size and force, any witnesses…but when it comes to your having to provide details of what you did, you should only say that you protected yourself from being killed or seriously hurt…that now you wish to remain silent…but will extend full cooperation after speaking to an attorney that you now wish to see immediately.

The caveat here is that we may not be able to follow these rules under the turmoil we'll find ourselves in and will fall prey to the natural instinct to tell all 'celebrating' our survival.

It also helps not to blow our own horn on these pages, trying to suggest how tough we are, how much training we have had, what we could do, what we may have done in the past and how 'lethal' we should be seen by the readers because of who and what we are. This is the best way to play into a prosecutor's hands.

I have seen this on these pages by a number of people now and then and I simply shake my head.

Quote:
Why not tell the police what happened? You will do that, in due time. But realize that in times of great stress things get distorted as your mind focuses on the threat. That knife might appear much larger than it actually was. If you mention a huge knife to the cops, and it turns out that it was a penknife with a 1.5-inch blade, it will make you look bad. Likewise if the "crowd of robbers" turns out to be just two people swarming you. The 1.5-inch blade was still a deadly threat, and you have as much right to defend yourself against two knife-wielding thugs as against 20, but mistakes such as this will impugn your testimony in everything. Don't let it happen. Ask for a lawyer, shut up, and after talking calmly with an advocate, make a full statement.


As Bill says all this should be a part of your on the floor training…you repeat these things to yourself and or discuss them often with your students as you workout so that they deeply ingrain.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:12 am 
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First off, as explained in our educational DVDs, which come with membership in the Network, whenever one person shoots another (like you shooting an attacker), they have fulfilled the criminal elements of either murder or assault, whether the person lives or dies. When the police show up, they have “Criminal Law 101” which they learned in the police academy running through their heads. They look at the dead body with holes in it, they look at you holding a gun. They add up these factors and “murder” flashes up on the screen.

At this time, there is only one way for you to avoid going to jail. That way is to convince the police that there are extenuating circumstances that negate the crime of murder. But if they don’t know about those extenuating circumstances, you will be arrested. And once arrested, you will remain in jail until you can make bail, or a kind and friendly judge decides to release you.

In many jurisdictions, you will be arrested anyway because you fulfilled the legal elements of the crime, regardless of any mitigating circumstances. You need to find out what the protocol is when police encounter a self-defense shooting in your jurisdiction.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:17 am 
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Thanks Van , good information , Its a lottery really

I think there's a danger in trying to convince the officer of self defence , he will not be on the jury

but having evidence of trying such as ringing , I just hope doing the right thing would be evidence , If I'm ringing an ambulance it is for the prervation of life , if I'm ringing the police it is because im reporting a crime , I don't think the legal reasons enter into it.

I think doing the right thing is the best gamble , and the right thing in regards with police is to be polite , request assistance and a lawyer and then STFU

being in no state to claim self defence , surely gives you time later to claim self defence I suspect my expert counsel to help me here when I'm under such stress...

playing cute or legal genius can only lead to problems.


Last edited by Stryke on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:19 am 
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I think Stryke was possibly referring to this
Quote:
And, if that isn’t bad enough, in court, when you are on trial for murder and your defense is self defense, you have to admit to the elements of the crime in order to invoke self defense.

In opening argument, your attorney will tell the jury that you killed that man. All the prosecution has to prove is that you did not kill him in self defense.

If you don’t put on a legitimate case, the jury doesn’t have any choice but to convict you of murder. The burden has shifted to you to prove your act was a legitimate case of self defense.

How do you do this?

Actions of an Innocent Person

First, don’t act like a guilty man or woman. When the first words out of your mouth are, “I want my lawyer,” you have done a surprisingly good imitation of a street-wise criminal. What is any self-respecting cop supposed to think? Dead body + gun + “I want my lawyer” = jail.

If, on the other hand, the officer hears, “My life was threatened, I had to shoot,” he forms a slightly different picture. In addition, if he first learned of the incident by a call from you to 9-1-1, and at that time you indicated that you were the victim of a robbery (or whatever crime caused you to believe your life was in danger) then he forms a different picture of the call before he even gets there.

If all he hears is: “Shooting occurred, suspect is still on the scene and armed,” called in by a witness, then you will be perceived immediately as a nasty character who needs to be dealt with aggressively.

You need to be the reporting party, if it is possible for you to do that. Win the race to the phone. Most criminal prosecutions start out with a 9-1-1 dispatch tape, to set the mood for the jury.

In your case, if you report the crime first, the jury gets to hear you telling dispatch in your own words, that you were just attacked and had to defend yourself. Then, the police testify about what you said to them, and they report, in the “excited utterance” exception to the hearsay rule, that you told them you were attacked and had to defend yourself. See where this is going?

In addition to telling the police that you were attacked, point out any witnesses that saw the incident, or know of any evidence that is likely to be missed by the officers during their investigation. Guilty people don’t help the cops. Innocent people do.

Were you injured during the assault against you? If it was a physical altercation, as are most disparity of force situations, there will likely be evidence of that attack on your body. If you are aware of any pain as a result of the attack, ask for medical aid.

It is likely that when attacked, you experienced an adrenalin dump. One of the effects of adrenalin is that it masks pain. You may have been injured, but don’t really feel it. Those injuries, even if you don’t feel any pain, are evidence of an attack. A bruise on the noggin may in fact be a concussion. You need to get checked out at the hospital.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:21 am 
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It is pretty tough for a prosecutor bent on putting you in prison to cross examine medical records. You see, in the hierarchy of professionals, doctors trump lawyers, and so a doctor’s word is going to be believed before the rantings of a prosecutor.

If you just tell the cops you want your lawyer, and don’t ask for medical aid, that evidence is lost. You may be a rough, tough guy, “awe shucks, it’s just a flesh wound,” and it very well may be, but it is also evidence of the attack.

Are your clothes dirty, wet or muddy? It’s evidence that you were on the ground. Make sure the cops see, understand and document that fact. You see, no one knows what little piece of evidence will be the one that tips the scales of justice in your favor, so you cannot leave anything out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:23 am 
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Know When to Stop Talking

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But you also need to know when to stop discussing the event with the cops, and you are at that point now.

After establishing that YOU were the one attacked (and it might be a good idea to explain that you want the guy you shot prosecuted if he lives) then this is the time to request your attorney. Say something like this: “Officers, this is a real serious matter, and while I want to cooperate with you fully. I have been taught that it is a good idea to have an attorney present before I give any detailed statements. Can I call my attorney? I have his number in my wallet.”

What is the cop going to say? No, you cannot call your attorney? Well, he might, and if he does, that’s okay, too, but you ARE going to get the chance to talk with your attorney before any more questioning. In the meantime, you should be viewed by the police as being cooperative.

The premise behind this educational essay is that you are innocent of any criminal activity in your legitimate act of self defense. If you go to court and testify, which you will likely have to do, you will be testifying to the truth. Finally, what you tell the cops at the scene is also the truth, so where is the downside? The truth never changes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:17 pm 
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Roy Bedard (whose book should be out shortly) points out how LEOs are given 24 to 48 hours of decompression time before they are asked to make a statement after a shooting. And yet... LEOs are told by their bosses *not* to give civilians this privilege when coming to a crime scene.

The brain isn't working the same immediately after you've been in a fight or a shooting, and the mouth wants to do what the mouth wants to do. You may be quite grateful to be alive, and what comes out may come across as incriminating bravado. What you say at that moment may be a distortion of reality, and you may not have access to all your memories when so neurohormonally jacked up. And then when the prosecuting attorneys detect inconsistences in your story from Time A to Time B, they will dive in for the kill. This is *obviously* a sign that you lied, right? So you *must* have done something very bad, right? The picture I paint after-the-fact trumps what you the witness of your crime are telling me, right?

Allow yourself what LEOs allow themselves so that they can create and maintain a coherent, truthful, and non-incriminating story. STFU, and talk to your lawyer.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:42 pm 
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Roys on the money, I think we've reached a consensus


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Right on, Bill. The problem still remains for some of us...

Cops know how to trick and intimidate someone into talking gibberish as it is all that will come out without the 48 hrs decompression.

I used to get into big fights with OSHA investigators as we responded almost at the same time to the scene of a fatal industrial accident.

They wanted to make the people we insured talk and give statements right then and there while those poor guys were still in shock from having witnessed or done something that might have contributed to the hapless employee's death, like the one case I had where a fellow employee turned on a can crushing machine while the decedent was inside cleaning it.

That poor man died a horrible death sending awful emotional shock waves through that plant.

Now comes Osha telling everyone to talk and give statements, and tried to intimidate me from 'meddling' with our own insured.

So I told the people from the plant to advise OSHA that they had the right to be represented by counsel before saying one word, and I told Osha I had advised our insured to say nothing until our own internal counsel appeared on the scene.

We almost came to blows.

Osha wants people to talk in that precarious state of mind so they can nail the plant with a violation and issue big fines.

Screw them.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:20 pm 
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Van: "Screw them."

And anyone else who tries to entrap or persecute in the interest of expediency or to pursue an agenda under the guise of "truth" or "justice".

The justice system would be much more amusing if lawyers were subject to the same tactics of discrediting and character assassination as the plaintiffs, defendants and witnesses. Sort of a trial within a trial.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:22 am 
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Sometimes it seems that it is illegal to protect oneself or others from evil people who mean you harm. So are we living in a real world, or in some kind of literary satire.


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