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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Two sides of the same coin?


Absolutely Bill , best way to put it .

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It's difficult to explain. But if you've walked the path, you understand.


absolutely understand , have had similar experiences , redundancy company bankruptcy (they were operating under a different name before I had Ideal employment again) .... had to sell a house ..... family losses .

But your right it's how you approach and move forward , and yeah martial arts is my metaphor for life , after enough time and commitment to something you do realise its the consistency of moving forward that makes the real difference , turn up and keep going and don't dwell on the set backs .

sometimes that's difficult but it's true none the less.

anything else is wasted opportunity.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:20 pm 
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Bill your opinions are valid ones and stimulate our thinking in the grand/great scheme of things. And thank you for being so candid about what you went through, awful, but certainly of great teaching value.

We all come from different experiences and backgrounds and we see all this reflected in all we say and do, including the ways we all 'operate' in training, in organizations and interactions with 'our own' as well as the people outside our 'sphere'_

It is true that there are ways to 'galvanize' or prepare ourselves against mental and physical vulnerabilities…but I must agree with Stryke that
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The first key in any such attempt to galvanize the student is to give a healthy dose of reality.



This is a very astute observation by Marcus and one I totally agree with because it is so insidious
Quote:
I don't believe Vans saying it will happen to everyone , but I do believe its the human condition to be traumatized by trauma ........ And that we should be realistic in confronting our vulnerabilities and coping strategies and acknowledge we will probably need outside help.

debriefing strategies, a self defence contract , a force continuum , a plan that matches your ethos , your beliefs your legal obligations ....

Now someone who's done such work to be proactive in there own defence gets a serious maybe debilitating beating ...... Now lets be honest and consider that sort of person is probably even more likely to suffer from a broken ego and outlook , or fall prey to a paranoia , ptsd or depression.

acknowledging the possibility is part of the continuum so folks can feel normal , be responsive rather than reactive , and feel free to seek help and be accepted both with themselves , with professional help ,to discuss with friends and peers comfortably , and free of judgement in there martial arts community of having failed their training .


Imagine any one of us 'master ranked and master titled' having to return to teach a class after spending a month in a hospital from a debilitating street beating and possibly loss of function. How this person would feel and could he be the same person on the floor as before?


But as Stryke points out, I said it 'could' happen to any of us…did not say it 'will'_

I have a different view of effects of physical and mental trauma to people because of my professional experience in the casualties of life and the consequences to 'survivors' in all types of traumatic events one could imagine…

…Including the various kinds of 'emotional injuries' caused by life's vicissitudes, as underlying 'conditions' and exacerbated by some easily identifiable or 'obscure' event, as Marcus astutely observed.

And Marcus, thank you for this,
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Vans all about education , but the biggest flaw is not having any knowledge a plan or understanding , having said that it all may not help.

but that's martial arts and life in general .

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:49 pm 
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I have learnt a lot from Van and Bill, although it is the things between and behind what they said ( like the movements, between movements in a kata ,and that from Bill) and the striving for honesty by Van that have been the most valuable for me.
Me personally I have had an interesting life. I had lot of fights in my youth , then when in my late teens and twenties a lot of my friends by some twist of fate where the biggest drug dealers in my area..and then I ended up in a prosection department ( The cps..?The crown prosection service...........then seconded to the police.....LOL :lol: :lol: v it is really ridiculous.
Now with violence people want answers, a philosophy, what to do.how to respond.people who want to sell you books, or instruct you on courses will tell you the answers that I never found......you may be good in a fight, but how you present yourself may mean that you never need to fight 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 am 
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Jorvik: "I have learnt a lot from Van and Bill, although it is the things between and behind what they said ( like the movements, between movements in a kata ,and that from Bill) and the striving for honesty by Van that have been the most valuable for me."

8) Seconded.

Jorvik: "how you present yourself may mean that you never need to fight"

As the Beatles say, "tomorrow never knows"

http://youtu.be/7xL1ffMlzKY


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:44 am 
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One example:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/17/vi ... ill-broken
Quote:
“Nothing has changed,” said Stern, a soft-spoken man who has never been in trouble with the law. “I still get headaches, I still look over my shoulder, and this officer could care less about what he has done.”

For a long time after the beating, Stern was afraid to walk out of his house.

He even refused to see his mom and dad for three days.

“What we saw was total shock and disbelief,” his father, David Stern, said of seeing his son after the beating.

“His face and head were disfigured, his eyes were shut, his body all banged up.”


Quote:
I know of a local Labrador that survived an attack while off leash. He was lost for 3 days after the attack but eventual found his way out of the wilderness. Dog was clawed up and had 2 puncture wounds in the skull. Dog had a severe infection in the bite wound , But it lived. It never was the same dog however and was pretty much afraid of it's own shadow.


Maybe if the above victim had been taking Uechi Ryu????

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:51 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Maybe if the above victim had been taking Uechi Ryu????

Maybe if the above victim had a good teacher of Uechi Ryu. ;-) It can't happen on automatic pilot. As I am want to tell my students, "You need to take these tools out of the toolbox and play with them." Surface-learning and performing the requirements ain't gonna do it.

There are no guarantees in life. But some paths are more fruitful than others.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:21 pm 
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I think there are a few problems when you talk about actual violence, and a big one is that many karate people have never had a fight in their entire lives, and they have sucked up the cool aid and believe that their magic kata will save them .Now when you have actually had fights and xperienced violence it doesn't make you invincible or super skilled in violence, battered wives have experienced violence, you just know what it is and what to expect and there are still people that scare the heck out of you. The "Experts" get it wrong because they say this will happen and you will feel like this, and legally you can do this and if you do this then you are acting illegally and you could end up in prison and the bad guy will do this and behave like this..and they won't, and life will become this biggest crock of cr*p you have ever known.With your "tool kit" the basics are the best. I have heard people say that the best thing is the palm heel, personnally, I have never used one the fists work great, headbutts to.the first thing is to be so aware that you never need to be in that situation, the second is to get out of that situation by verbal skills or giving money or whatever...finally you use violence...and it's kinda funny we don't hav guns in my country , but I don't believe that I would have a problem using one if we did, i think a lot of real defence skills are talked out of people by the politicians the media and the "Experts"


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:18 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
I think there are a few problems when you talk about actual violence, and a big one is that many karate people have never had a fight in their entire lives, and they have sucked up the cool aid and believe that their magic kata will save them .Now when you have actually had fights and xperienced violence it doesn't make you invincible or super skilled in violence, battered wives have experienced violence, you just know what it is and what to expect and there are still people that scare the heck out of you. The "Experts" get it wrong because they say this will happen and you will feel like this, and legally you can do this and if you do this then you are acting illegally and you could end up in prison and the bad guy will do this and behave like this..and they won't, and life will become this biggest crock of cr*p you have ever known.With your "tool kit" the basics are the best. I have heard people say that the best thing is the palm heel, personnally, I have never used one the fists work great, headbutts to.the first thing is to be so aware that you never need to be in that situation, the second is to get out of that situation by verbal skills or giving money or whatever...finally you use violence...and it's kinda funny we don't hav guns in my country , but I don't believe that I would have a problem using one if we did, i think a lot of real defence skills are talked out of people by the politicians the media and the "Experts"

Now that's what I call a stream-of-consciousness rant. :-D It's all there, Ray! :-)

There are no guarantees in life; there are only the many things you can do which improve or reduce your chance of having a better outcome given any specific situation. Some approaches are evidence-based, and some not so much. Some work right out of the box, and some require an extended period of time to digest and assimilate. Execution is key. You can be sitting pretty with a beautiful firearm, and still end up dead because you didn't use it properly.

And finally... luck counts - both good and bad.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:41 am 
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Quote:
You can be sitting pretty with a beautiful firearm, and still end up dead because you didn't use it properly.


Yeah, you may also end up dead with that firearm stuck up your 'you know what'_

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:02 am 
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Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:39 am 
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Van Canna wrote:

Quote:
I know of a local Labrador that survived an attack while off leash. He was lost for 3 days after the attack but eventual found his way out of the wilderness. Dog was clawed up and had 2 puncture wounds in the skull. Dog had a severe infection in the bite wound , But it lived. It never was the same dog however and was pretty much afraid of it's own shadow.


Maybe if the above victim had been taking Uechi Ryu????


I tried teaching the dog, but the dog had no fight in it, stopped coming to class after a few sessions, complaining that the shins were too bruised. Maybe I was a bad teacher and rushed the dogs conditioning. :wink:

I have spend a great deal of time in the company of wounded warriors. Some off them have been trying to get on with life for a decade. They read all the books Bll read, they got all the new aged training. They still came home with PTSD and struggle as a result. I don't think Uechi would have been the magic elixir that some suggest.

Image

Maybe I should have just painted the dog.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Feur wrote:
Image


Green marmalade?
8O

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Hi Laird,

As you, Jim Maloney has spent lots of time with 'wounded warriors' as well.

Surely the stories he tells and you might tell would be sobering indeed hitting us with buckets of that 'green marmalade' you posted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/ba ... d=all&_r=0

This might give a bit of insight into why some people more than others are at risk of PTSD, the 'proper Uechi training' not withstanding...though I agree with Bill that at least we must approach the potential of it intelligently somehow in class...one being the assumptions of grandeur some of us develop on the floor and taylor made 'realities' of how violence would affect us and how we would handle it.

In my work I received specialized training in many of the human relations pitfalls involving catastrophic human casualties, one being the investigation of emotional injuries as well as physical. It is a very complex field as you might imagine and does provide some answers to the why certain people are affected more than others, even with 'specialized training'...

This might give some insight as well...

Why do we have so many 'tough troops' Marines...paratroopers etc. commit suicide?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/ba ... d=all&_r=0

This should be read in its entirety.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:31 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Feur wrote:
Image


Green marmalade?
8O
Looks like pesto, but it's not something I'd put on toast or noodles....grasshopper ala windshield. Then again if you've got nothing it's something!

No matter how well we prepare we must be cognizant of the fact that some times your the bug and sometimes your the windscreen, and there may be nothing one can do about it. Part of the process of building armour for the id is accepting you may have no control over events or outcomes. We can work with our students and prepare them, but no mater how learned the instructor may be or what books they have read, some times horrific events destroy lives regardless of how well prepared the individual was.

Bug meets windshield.

However I agree with Bill that this should not stop us from attempting to prepare our charges for the mental turmoil they may encounter after experiencing violence. No matter which side of the event one experiences most people will have to make peace with what has happened.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:53 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Hi Laird,

As you, Jim Maloney has spent lots of time with 'wounded warriors' as well.

Surely the stories he tells and you might tell would be sobering indeed hitting us with buckets of that 'green marmalade' you posted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/ba ... d=all&_r=0

This might give a bit of insight into why some people more than others are at risk of PTSD, the 'proper Uechi training' not withstanding...though I agree with Bill that at least we must approach the potential of it intelligently somehow in class...one being the assumptions of grandeur some of us develop on the floor and taylor made 'realities' of how violence would affect us and how we would handle it.

In my work I received specialized training in many of the human relations pitfalls involving catastrophic human casualties, one being the investigation of emotional injuries as well as physical. It is a very complex field as you might imagine and does provide some answers to the why certain people are affected more than others, even with 'specialized training'...

This might give some insight as well...

Why do we have so many 'tough troops' Marines...paratroopers etc. commit suicide?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/ba ... d=all&_r=0

This should be read in its entirety.


Good links, well written and echos what is happening in Canada. The majority of military suicides have be among returned Combat Veterans. Most of the suicides have involved enlisted personnel but they have also included Brigadier General. This illness PTSD has affected more than one command ranked officer. Many don't show signs of a problem until they return home and then things begin to unravel.

Our incidents of soldiers taking their own lives is by percentage similar to whats happening in America. Over this last Christmas season (December/ January) we saw an escalation in this trend. How serious is the problem, soldiers were taking their own lives in Canada at three times the rate that the Taliban managed during the war in Afghanistan. It is not unusual to see a peak in suicide events during this time of year in the civilian population, Suspect the recent increase is just the seasonal bump.

Politicians are acting as if the war is over....but we continue to loose soldiers. Our government and our people need to put more resources to helping these lads reintegrate.

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