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 Post subject: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:32 am 
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Read this on the Sunday Globe
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Most of us have probably never been in a bar fight, but we have some notions about them—why they start, who’s involved, maybe even some tactics.

In an entertaining essay on the culture website Ordinary Times, Burt Likko—an attorney who litigated bar-fight cases in the 1990s—explains that in reality, they often play out differently than we assume.

One of the first surprises is that bar-fight lawsuits are common, many targeting the bars themselves for not providing adequate security, or for serving a known brawler. Another surprise is that, in Likko’s experience, most bar fights don’t happen over a woman or a spilled drink, but rather arise when a drunk patron refuses to leave. The customer breaks the bouncer’s grip and either knocks into another patron or is caught by the bouncer, and violence ensues.

Surprise number three: The fights don’t last long. This is where things get vivid and unpleasant. “The phrase bar ‘fight’ is something of a misnomer,” Likko writes. “‘Assault and battery’ are closer to the mark....One person is usually better than the other at violence, and the winning tactic seems to be somehow immobilizing the opponent at an early point in the melee.”


A movie bar fight might look dramatic, even titillating, but as Likko details the real-world version—the chaos, the stumbling lack of control, the hard press of a floor against a face—any sense of excitement vanishes pretty quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:46 am 
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Hi Canna sensei.

Seems some problems occurred for my account prior to and during the server changeover, and I wasn't able to get back in to read replies. I kept getting re-routed to the board index. My account and posts it would appear, were erradicated. I am now re-registered and good to go. I've been in a couple of fights in which a bar has figured. Back in 2003, my son took his first job after leaving high school as a server's assistant at a bar-restaurant in town. One night he and I were going to his restaurant for dinner. We had just parked the car in a lot across the street and were getting ready to cross the road when a commotion behind us attracted my attention. Three fellas who had been talking without apparent problem as we passed them a moment before were now engaged in combat, in a two on one scenario, with motorbike helmets swinging. The defender was hit in the head and now laying barely conscious on the pavement with the two aggressors raining down blows. My son who was still walking turned to find I was no longer at his side but was warning the two fellas off the downed man. They turned their attention away from the downed man, which is what I had wanted. But I had positioned myself poorly as I had approached them and rather than keeping both on one side, I had one on either side in front of me. As the man on my right pulled back for a swing with the helmet, I threw a right round house that connected with his midsection. However, my leather sole shoes on the wet pavement and the round house kick did not agree. I found myself on my butt and having to roll quickly to narrowly avoid having my head smashed open by a descending crash helmet. My son was now running toward the scene and yelling at the guys who abandonded their earlier target and me, jumped on a motorbike and fled the scene. A subsequent call to the police led to them asking us to come to them rather than them to the scene. We abandonded that. My son called them back about 5 minutes later to say that he had seen some guys stealing a bike, and gave them the license number of the getaway bike. Major lessons: 1. communicate with other people you are with before you rush off and put yourself in harm's way. There is strength in numbers and others may want to help. A co-ordinated group plan may stand more chance of success. 2. Positioning is critical. Do not make yourself an easy target. 3. Remember the conditions on the street are not the conditions in the dojo. An error in balance because of a shoe heel and wet paving could have cost me my life. If you are going to wear shoes with heels, train to kick in them and in various conditions. There is much more chance you'll be wearing some sort of footwear than not.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:42 pm 
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Hi Richard,

Thank you for posting, and yes, lots to learn from it…reason why I encourage readers to post their street experiences for discussions that benefit all here.

You wrote
Quote:
Major lessons: 1. communicate with other people you are with before you rush off and put yourself in harm's way. There is strength in numbers and others may want to help. A co-ordinated group plan may stand more chance of success. 2. Positioning is critical. Do not make yourself an easy target. 3. Remember the conditions on the street are not the conditions in the dojo. An error in balance because of a shoe heel and wet paving could have cost me my life. If you are going to wear shoes with heels, train to kick in them and in various conditions. There is much more chance you'll be wearing some sort of footwear than not.


Indeed.

Things can get out of hand in the blink of an eye. One of my students came up against a situation recently where _while shopping in a store he almost came to blows with a 350 lbs disturbed individual, who also yelled out of control… calling him a 'Nazi' amongst some colorful choice of words.

When my student asked a cashier to call security for the protection of customers, he was told to 'take his problems outside' …

The fat nutcase even commanded my student to 'smile' several times…to which he responded …'make me' _

We can see how something nasty could have happened. Fortunately the nutcase _after 'blowing his load' _decided to leave the store.

Though my student felt confident to be able to avoid an attack/charge by the behemoth because of the angling and positioning drills we practice, instead of relying on blocking someone head on…

_one never knows what this disturbed person might have 'pulled' on the street, including a knife or a gun.

My opinion has always been that what we learn in a dojo remains but marginal 'street skills' without our learning the tactical aspects of impending violence which so many times we even fail to sense.

Reason why I love reading the books by Rory Miller.

There is also another book I recommend: "How to recognize and respond to a potential threat" by Joshua Pellicer…the book is an eye opener.

BTW, Richard, if you are also working on drills moving off the X…moving off line of an attack…I'd appreciate your sharing with us…this is what I focus on mostly in my classes, using the embedded concepts of the Uechi style found in hojo undo and kata practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:56 am 
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Quote:
BTW, Richard, if you are also working on drills moving off the X…moving off line of an attack…I'd appreciate your sharing with us…this is what I focus on mostly in my classes, using the embedded concepts of the Uechi style found in hojo undo and kata practice.


Well sir, I am. And in fact they were inspired by an attempt to deconstruct what I had read you talking about in a thread using the tenshin to perform a two person stepping exercise that kept one person directly behind the other that Mattson sensei had asked you to film.

My drills are no different than those that are related in Mattson sensei's work. However I think their intent is different from those expressed in the normal hojundo and kata bunkai. I see them as part of the body management, evasion and footwork necessary for using uechi ryu as a soft hard style of southern chinese boxing and necessary for the myriad of throwing techniques within the system. I didn't know if you wanted me to post them on this bar fight thread or on another specifically about that topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Hi Richard,

Thank you for the post.
Quote:
My drills are no different than those that are related in Mattson sensei's work. However I think their intent is different from those expressed in the normal hojundo and kata bunkai. I see them as part of the body management, evasion and footwork necessary for using uechi ryu as a soft hard style of southern chinese boxing and necessary for the myriad of throwing techniques within the system. I didn't know if you wanted me to post them on this bar fight thread or on another specifically about that topic.


Well put, thank you. I always liked Mattson sensei's 'eight form' which instills the very basics of moving off line and also when to 'twelve o'clock high' nail an attack by pre-emption.

I like your 'body management' expression as it clarifies the concepts we are all trying to grasp.

Also well put your description of intent as expressed in hojundo and kata bunkai.

You may post any of this anywhere Richard. Always stimulating a good discussion.

Kata bunkai is good but can create illusions of being safe.

A good example of it is what you wrote about your street encounter and finding yourself in between two opponents [being flanked] instead of rotating to the outside and 'stacking' them.

Good observation.

And the reason why I don't teach the Kanchiwa bunkai the 'standard' way of tenshin in the first three opening moves.

I am fond of teaching the tenshin, say against the first 'punch defense' of the bunkai …by 'intercept/strike/ rotate' behind the opponent, to use him as a shield while ramming him into the next attacker…and to continue the 'spin off' concept.

I think that here, we can all learn from your approach to this getting off line…moving off the X…

a concept as refereed to by lethal force instructors in tactical firearms training that I went through with Mas Ayoob and John Farnam.

Quote:
\In the tactical world we call this “Getting off the X” The “X” is the area where you
are currently standing, sitting, walking, or working. The thought process is that
the bad guy is focused in on you and begins the attack (or action) he is in his
own OODA loop and is fixated on you with blinding tunnel vision and adrenaline.


I keep bringing up the references to the effects of adrenaline dumps is because it has been shown to be a deciding factor in both an attacker and a victim of attack.


Quote:
Once your OODA loop begins (or reaction) you Observe the threat, you Orient to
the threat, you make a Decision and then Act.

You have moved of the X and out of the blinding tunnel vision and
adrenaline of the bad guy, this causes your attacker to have to readjust to you and
the thought process is now you have gotten inside of the bad guys OODA loop.

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:32 pm 
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And also, we must always keep in mind the effects of the 'fight or flight' reflex that occurs in a split second and affect our response actions.
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Also called the “fight or flight” response of the body to an event our mind considers life threatening, tachypsychia is believed to include numerous physical changes.

Upon being stimulated by fear or anger, the adrenal medulla may automatically produce the hormone epinephrine (aka- adrenalin) directly into the blood stream.

Common physical changes may range from increased heart and blood pressure rates, which may cause the fainting or something close which could cause someone with these symptoms, to quit or shutdown. This is not an advantageous condition to experience when trying to survive!

Dilation of bronchial passages and the pupils then causes a higher absorption of oxygen into the blood stream (good) and allows more light into the pupils, leaving us with visual exclusion or tunnel vision (bad).

We can also experience a release of glucose into our system generating extra energy.

*It is common for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or sensitivity. It is also common for individuals to experience an increase in pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased fine motor skills, decreased communication skills, or decreased coordination.

The most common experience during tachypsychia is the feeling that time has either increased or slowed down brought by the increased brain activity cause by epinephrine, or the severe decrease in brain activity caused by the “catecholamine washout” occurring after the event.

It is common for individuals to have serious misrepresentations of their surroundings during the events, through a combination or their altered perception of time, as well as transient partial color blindness and tunnel vision.*

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:48 am 
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And the only way to make any dent in the limiting effects of those neurochemical responses is to be as fit and as prepared for anything as you can be at any time, any where. Period. And that will only mitigate rather than completely override the effects you detail. One of the major factors will be the cognitive appraisal that is going on about the event while experiencing the simultaneous physical effects. That cognitive appraisal may make a tremendous difference in the response in terms of the emotional reaction and contingent problem solving and decision making abilities and consequent action tendencies. A new mma fighter will feel the 'nerves' associated with the first fight, but is unlikely to label that as fear and run from his opponent. If we understand the thinking that causes us to be afraid, we can provide an alternative thinking route that generates a negative emotion called concern that stimulates self-helping action. After all, many emotional states produce identical measures of physiological arousal, but are labelled differently resulting in a different appraisal and consequent emotional response. Troublesome emotions like fear that arise in life threatening situations can be targeted and altered to healthier and more helpful albeit negative emotions, through behaviour. And then as much as possible, the skill overlearned to the extent that it is fully automated, removing any cognitive load and freeing the central executive to engage in other critical tasks. That is the purpose of the numerous health and safety drills that have developed over time (eg. evacuations drills)

Kanshiwa bunkai. Again, I teach the old bunkai for comparative purposes. The ideas of Bedard, and Bentley sensei on angling and combat initiative respectively, gleened during the 2011 Winterfest; together with a study of the book 'The Way of Kata' by Kane and Wilder and my studies with Evan Pantazi have resulted in a complete change of perspective on this form and its purpose. The first three moves of kanshiwa for me demonstrate the angling, combat initiative, soft vs hard, the use of two hands and context based alternatives. However the only way this works to achieve anything more than the middle distance standard approach is if the uke commits to coming in with attacks that put pressure on both the uke and the tori to move in, and not just maintain distance. I do not have attackers come in from the left or right, they all attack from the same direction. Directly opposite tori's axis of advance along the form embusen lines.

Most people in the world are right handed. Chances are your attacker will be right handed. Not a guarantee, but a good chance and a good place to start. Right handers with any kind of pugilistic sense will often lead with the left hand. Opening attack, stepping in left jab. Tori intercepts and parries with a right palm while simultaneoulsy angling the left foot out to adopt the left sanchin while stepping forward with the right foot and performing the left wauke while turning the body 90 degrees to the left. At this stage the wauke can serve many purposes. If done correctly, tori will be positioned broadside of uke and able to deliver a right punch directly into targets on uke's left flank. If uke opened up with a right hand strike the opposite would be the case (move one of the kata, but turning right rather than left). At this point, tori is now facing directly left and is attacked for the second sequence from the same direction as the first attacker, which means the uke will be attacking tori's right side. Tori responds with a left palm, right wauke intercept while turning the body 180 degrees to face the right. In the first sequence, wait for the attack (go no sen), in the second sequence, intercept the attack as it is coming in (sen no sen), in the third sequence, tori preempts uke's attack with a lightning slide step forward, simultaneous left wauke, right punch before uke has even been able to get the punch off.

Is that similar to what you do?


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Yours is an excellent post, Richard, thank you.

I teach along the same lines as you do, with the various concepts you outline.

I try to make the students aware, constantly, that a street opponent might be of 'industrial size' to steal an expression from a lethal force trainer at the lethal force institute.

Image

One of the drills I like is to practice evasions and spin outs with the back against the wall, with or without other students 'crowding' the sides of the person against the wall, to simulate common scenarios where one may be at a crowded party, a bar, a subway car, where there might be a feeling of being boxed in with only a small space opening either at 90 or 45 angles, when suddenly being attacked by the 'industrial size' _with power and momentum and a feeling of claustrophobia we never really practice in kata/kumite.

There is great importance in learning the 'drop step' as opposed to simply stepping as we use in our forms and kumites.

The 'drop step' is done by falling into a direction without first picking up the foot. Simply "unweigh the foot" and fall into that direction. This decreases the time it takes to move off the initial line, and this is critical when your back is against the wall.

This requires explosive movements and 'spring legs' training is useful in our abilities to 'launch ourselves'…a critical skill. Watching professional soccer players in action is also recommended to gain an understanding of side stepping skills.

One would think that this type of 'angling motion' would come naturally to Uechi students, and it should. But I see many students struggle with the take off/spin off drills because they rely so much on standing their ground and 'block' an attack…which if it comes in by a heavy strong opponent, will have them overcome by momentum.

I keep pointing out that moving is a skill like any other and it must be learned and trained to a point of being reflexive, and I spend a good portion of the class on that concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Wicked Van sensei.

Here's the little mantra Al taught me many years ago

"Soft beats hard, semi-hard beats soft, hard beats semi-hard'. The relationship between the two individuals during an encounter is in a constant state of flux.

I'm only little, I operate from the premise that most folks are bigger and stronger and will attack hard. In order to defeat them I must first be soft. When they become soft, I must become harder than them, but not so hard as to be defeated by their soft.

That's one big guy in that photo. Industrial size is right! I think I would have to let him pass by! And when he turned to see where I was, all he'd see was a smoke trail. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:53 pm 
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"Most people in the world are right handed. Chances are your attacker will be right handed. Not a guarantee, but a good chance and a good place to start. Right handers with any kind of pugilistic sense will often lead with the left hand"

Ok well in my situation in the dog fight the guy had told me what he was going to do, i.e break my nose............my bad I didn't look at his wrist, left handed people wear their watches on their right wrist..not always but it may give you an edge 8) .............you can usually tell by body placement, also if you are in a side on stance and the guy punches you and you move slightly to the side, the curvature of your stance will automatically turn your body out of range, not a lot but out of range none the less 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:49 am 
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It's all good Jorvik as long as he doesn't try to do it. Distance is your friend. If he got closer, all that stuff would become far more salient and the intuitive reading of the non-verbal aspects of his behaviour would take on primary importance. Remember, sticks and stones can break your bones for sure, but names will only harm you if you let them. Better to not let an obviously disturbed individual whose dog could be potential luncheon meat for your canine and whom if he did have the audacity to attack, you would probably destroy if your pal didn't do it for you first, cause you to upset yourself. In any altercation, we are trying to retain mental balance and emotional control in order to deploy the energy that would otherwise be consumed in creating and sustaining those emotions into mental intent for use in combat. It is difficult to relax, concentrate and feel when we are emotionally distraught. The world is full of fallabile human beings all with anal orifices. And sometimes, some of them choose to act that way too. But it is tougher after the fact to maintain a self-defense stance if he did attack you when there has been a sh*t slinging contest going on first that others might have overheard. Stay cool, brother and don't let that one upset your time with your best friend! If there are leash laws in your area that he is violating that mitigate against your animal biting his, that's on him. If he's someone from your neighbourhood, contact and advise the SPCA so they can have a word and to protect your puppy before the other person' negligence brings about another incident.


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:19 am 
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jorvik wrote:
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"Most people in the world are right handed. Chances are your attacker will be right handed. Not a guarantee, but a good chance and a good place to start. Right handers with any kind of pugilistic sense will often lead with the left hand"

Ok well in my situation in the dog fight the guy had told me what he was going to do, i.e break my nose............my bad I didn't look at his wrist, left handed people wear their watches on their right wrist..not always but it may give you an edge 8) .............you can usually tell by body placement, also if you are in a side on stance and the guy punches you and you move slightly to the side, the curvature of your stance will automatically turn your body out of range, not a lot but out of range none the less 8)


I do shin conditioning on a daily basis and have no problem smashing my shins 'bone to bone' against some idiot who won't be so conditioned.

If I see or sense someone getting into a boxing stance with his left foot forward and left arm up to jab...I will cover my face and move in with my left shin kick against his left shin trying to break it.

Most people will not expect their shins to be attacked in that manner and when they get hit, they will crumble.

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:06 pm 
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Richard
You are right, I didn't get hit or to be honest even feel that threatened 8) ....not with my canine friend and protector. /so it ended well.

Van
It is always good to act in an unpredictable fashion and to hone strengths that others do not have. I remember speaking to a guy in Goju and he told me that he knew someone who changed tyres for a living, and in karate he was very ordinary, kata wasn't much couldn't kick high etc.......but every lunch hour he would shin kick a tyre for about 20 minutes. when he got in fights they lasted seconds :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:01 pm 
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:D

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 Post subject: Re: Bar Fights
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu1MtT_S3bc

Jack Reacher, one of my favorites, 6'-5", 250 lbs. Takes a little imagination when Tom Cruise plays the part.

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