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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:14 am 
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Stryke: "the real comment I wanted to make is the breath ..... that's the mind body connection , control your breath , control your heart rate , control your emotions , control your mind , control your posture . Synergy ."

One thing I would like to add to this is that in every overload situation I've been in, whether work, sports or uh oh, related, I can only find balance by letting go and allowing my body to do what it wants to do. Sometimes I have found that the only way I was able to control myself was by getting out of my way.

When I try to control things like breathing, I create tension and build stress.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:55 am 
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Maybe controls the wrong word , maybe explore is better

breathing is the link because we can only influence it , it runs in both our conscious and unconscious , so getting it all in sink says more about or other states as well .

it is the link to our heart rate , and our performance state and we'll never be able to cover it all here , sometimes I just wish I could do a quick class on here .....

being a life long asthmatic who had some bad experiences in childhood breathing is somewhat of an obsession.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:06 am 
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8)

I truly believe that the breath is the link between the mind and body. Maybe the spirit? We breathe just like everything around us.

I think of waves on the beach.

According to modern physicists, everything in the universe winks in and out of existence faster than we can see.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:11 am 
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I agree, Bill.

The 'be breathed' concept of Scott Sonnon is really the key. Also, what is critical to point out to students, is that any breathing method or pattern we may teach, is not written in stone and they may breathe anyway they individually feel comfortable under any circumstances.

This is what Master Uechi has said, regarding breathing.

I don't exhale with every move I make, I exhale in various ways under certain conditions and certain feelings individual to me, and this goes to what Stryke wrote.

My problem has always been with some teachers hammering students on the 'Uechi breathing' method that calls for not exhaling with a strike, but after the strike, supposedly because it makes the strike more powerful. In some dojos, if you breathe out as you strike, you will be castigated.

And when I see older students, under the minimal stress of a dan test, turn red or blue, I know that it is the teacher's fault, not his. This upsets me.

Aside from the physical aspect of strike effectiveness, I always try to relate any breathing to the changes we fall prey to under an adrenaline dump.

The moment we become anxious, worried, frightened, stressed, alarmed or feel threatened in any way our breathing changes. The diaphragm becomes rigid, and we begin breathing in the upper, smaller part of our lungs. Our breath becomes uneven, shallow, rapid and often we hold our breath as well.

Given these reactions in a survival situation, it is really stupid to teach and 'operant condition' a student to hold his breath at any time, during a strike or whatever.

Yet you will see this in most schools.


This is interesting
Quote:
Prof. TAKAMIYAGI Shigeru Sensei says in his "Karate-Do Kyohon" book:

"... the basic breathing method is that learned in Sanchin kata: an “interrupted” breath, short and sharp and explosive. This is a clearly defined aspirated hiss, originating from the strained abdomen and expelling air through the mouth. The focus of the breath must be on exhalation; replenishment of air must be allowed to take place naturally through the nose, immediately following the exhalation. This kind of breath is seen in all the Kata of our system."

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Last edited by Van Canna on Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:34 am 
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I have had an experience enough times for it to be statistically significant. It happens every time. When I sit long enough and "count sheep", so to say, there comes a point where my breathing just lets go and at the same time, my mind opens up. It is a sinking feeling like letting go and falling, without hitting the ground.

So far, that is the only way I have been able to really relinquish control. But I have found that everything works just fine without me there. If anything, It feels like my body is working at peak efficiency. It is as if I can feel my blood vessels relaxing and opening up. "Thanks for getting out of the way" :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:13 am 
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Quote:
have had an experience enough times for it to be statistically significant. It happens every time. When I sit long enough and "count sheep", so to say, there comes a point where my breathing just lets go and at the same time, my mind opens up. It is a sinking feeling like letting go and falling, without hitting the ground.

So far, that is the only way I have been able to really relinquish control. But I have found that everything works just fine without me there. If anything, It feels like my body is working at peak efficiency. It is as if I can feel my blood vessels relaxing and opening up. "Thanks for getting out of the way" :lol:


I'm always talking about getting out of your own way :)

just be , maybe the biggest challenge of them all 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:23 am 
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Ironic, no? 8)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:26 am 
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:lol: :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Quote:
Prof. TAKAMIYAGI Shigeru Sensei says in his "Karate-Do Kyohon" book:

"... the basic breathing method is that learned in Sanchin kata: an “interrupted” breath, short and sharp and explosive. This is a clearly defined aspirated hiss, originating from the strained abdomen and expelling air through the mouth. The focus of the breath must be on exhalation; replenishment of air must be allowed to take place naturally through the nose, immediately following the exhalation. This kind of breath is seen in all the Kata of our system."


This reminds me of the 'breathing wars' threads we had in the past :lol:

Not that I really care to resurrect those.

But it is worth analyzing the above statement to understand the concept behind what was written.

From experience, I can relate that back when the Okinawan masters first came to Boston to visit and teach at the Mattson Karate Academy, they were invited to visit and give a demonstration at Sensei Anthony Mirakian of Meibukan Goju-ryu Karate-do Association's headquartered in Watertown Ma.
Kiyohide Shinjō sensei, was part of the visiting Okinawan Uechi group of seniors.

http://www.meibukan-goju-ryu-usa.com/mirakian.htm

I had met Master Mirakian during our competition in the first world Karate championship in Chicago.

I was asked by the Okinawan masters to join their demonstration group at Mirakian sensei's dojo.

I recall doing a powerful sanchin while exhaling on the strike.

Later, Yonamine sensei, took me aside and suggested that I should hold my breath while pushing with the lower strained abdomen but ... not allowing air to escape between the tongue glued to the top of the mouth...when the strike was made...but to release air in the tsst sound only after the strike.

I recall a similar correction by Tomoyose sensei.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
I recall doing a powerful sanchin while exhaling on the strike.

Later, Yonamine sensei, took me aside and suggested that I should hold my breath while pushing with the lower strained abdomen but ... not allowing air to escape between the tongue glued to the top of the mouth...when the strike was made...but to release air in the tsst sound only after the strike.

I recall a similar correction by Tomoyose sensei.

When religious people turn religion into dogma, you have a mess. Religion should be about The Golden Rule. Only those people who are born without a sense of empathy - and that happens - should be taking The Good Book literally. For the rest of us, it should be as Chris Rock says in an amusing video. There are things that you shouldn't do, and any person with "common sense" knows what they are. [1]

When karateka turn breathing into religion, we get a mess. Everything should be based on principles. The actual situation should dictate the execution, and not some list of rules which we should blindly follow.

Sometimes when I weightlift, I breathe similar to the method Van describes from Yonamine et al. I hold the breath a little to raise my intrapleural pressure so I get some core stiffness. But there's a point at which I let excess pressure go. It's like a pressure cooker with a fixed weight on top. It maintains a prescribed pressure inside the container, and anything above that pressure (force or weight per unit area) is released. So no... it isn't about holding your breath. It's about adjusting the viscoelastic properties of the core.

But I wax technical. I'll save the details for my up-coming book. 8)

That's a long way of saying that the comments mentioned by Van were unfortunate. The good news is that these great men had the patience to teach people who could take the material and run with it. We will honor them by bringing it to the next level. And we will do that by going just a little bit more natural.

"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of men of old; seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho

- Bill

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2plo4FOgIU


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:52 pm 
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What it boils down to, really, is that as Sonnon puts it...regardless of any breathing method, the body will breathe us as needed, saving us from ourselves.

Take any breathing pattern that sounds and feels good...then watch it go to hell when the person becomes adrenalized and fearful of impending violence, extreme bodily harm or death.

Sporting events...another story...meaning that dedicated breathing patterns are of great value...such as the 2 to 1 method I learned in the 2000 meters rowing competition.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:12 am 
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This is what I posted a long time ago in the breathing wars threads and something to believe in
Quote:
Internal Breathing
Internal breathing is like a tea kettle that is building up steam. As the pressure in the kettle increases, there will be a slow release of pressure though a small hole in the spout. There will always be near constant pressure within.

The lungs take on a similar function with internal breathing methods. There is a release of small bursts of air when delivering each strike.

With a rapid series of strikes, there will either be a release of several short bursts of air, or a release of a continuous stream of air out of the lungs. At the same time there will be air pressure maintained within the lungs, much like the tea kettle.

The diaphragm and muscles in the body must tense properly to get the most benefit from internal breathing.

The best way to experience this is to exhale and form the mouth as to create a hiss. There should be muscle tension low in the diaphragm and abdomen.

This obtains maximum compression of the oxygen in the lungs and controls the amount of air that leaves the body.

Unlike most other breathing methods, this type of breathing requires precise timing within a sequence of events. As the nervous system fires muscles independently, these muscles contract in sequence to produce a wave of motion through the body.

The diaphragm must contract at the proper instant to continue this flow of motion. If there is a break in the sequence, a loss of energy will result.

These precision breathing methods are useful in many aspects of martial arts training, including grappling and joint manipulation techniques.

For general practice I find it helpful to focus more on the exhale and let the timing of the inhale come naturally.

You can hyperventilate if your breathing becomes too erratic. Breathing must flow with the motion with intermittent bursts of energy when needed.

Exhale when delivering a strike or kick, and train yourself to exhale and tighten the muscles when receiving a blow. This prevents the air from being knocked out of you and prepares your body to absorb the impact.

Proper breathing can improve balance and mobility as well. Inhaling while in motion creates buoyancy for greater foot speed, while exhaling when settling your body weight into a strike aids in better force and fusion upon impact to a target.

Fusion is the moment when the joints of the body lock in position as to allow the entire weight of the body to be behind the strike.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Here's the key
Quote:
You can hyperventilate if your breathing becomes too erratic. Breathing must flow with the motion with intermittent bursts of energy when needed.


I think this is the way Mattson sensei teaches it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Here's the key
Quote:
You can hyperventilate if your breathing becomes too erratic. Breathing must flow with the motion with intermittent bursts of energy when needed.


I think this is the way Mattson sensei teaches it.

What's missing is George's demand that you should breathe when you need to take a breath. He uses as an example someone who takes breathing with motion as religion. His Machiavellian tactic for such a person is to spend long periods checking that person's Sanchin. If (s)he doesn't have an in-between movement breathing game plan, (s)he will turn red and go vasovagal just as fast as the between-movement religion folk.

Go back and look at Gushi's performance. While I'm not Gushi and vice versa, I agree with his approach. You'll find him taking some of his breaths with movement, and some of his breaths in-between movement. He breathes when he needs to breathe, and he breathes when his movement makes him breathe.

The only fixed rules I see in Kanbun's style is to keep a small tidal volume, and to exhale quickly. Keeping the air content limited reduces vulnerability, and exhaling explosively creates turbulent air flow (which means good air mixing). The "when" for the exhales is a matter of allowing it to happen with movement and forcing it to happen when your body wants/needs a breath.

My opinion, FWIW.

It's also worth mentioning that there is a science to breathing when preparing for battle. That is practiced in the Uechi hojoundo (shinko kyu), and it is discussed in the RBSD literature (autogenic breathing).

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:38 am 
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Quote:
It's also worth mentioning that there is a science to breathing when preparing for battle. That is practiced in the Uechi hojoundo (shinko kyu), and it is discussed in the RBSD literature (autogenic breathing).


the breath to control the heart rate , this is the real issue , exploring the techniques and having and extra set of tools on hand .

Autogenic breathing to prepare , recovery and burst breathing to lower the hear rate .

I suggest the material of Scott Sonnon , if anyone really wants to get this stuff you should explore it .

heres a little article from somewhere around 2008 ;)

Quote:
Being Breathed Or Barely Breathing?
April 30, 2008 – 5:13 am
One of my students, Rick, wrote this excellent piece which I thought you should read.

Rick speaks to a question I frequently receive from audiences, regardless of the country I’m speaking in: “how do we breath for optimal performance and health?”

My answer is always this: Are you Being Breathed or Barely Breathing?

Rick gives his perspective on the issue in this great piece! [And he knows what he’s talking about, since in martial arts, breathing efficiency marks the difference between life and dealth. If anyone knows how to train martial artists, it’s a warrior of Rick’s experience!]

Be Breathed and Trinity Breathing and Kata and Fighting – my take on it - Rick Wilson


“Scott Sonnon’s Signature “Be Breathed” Technique and the Trinity Breathing have completed a big picture for me in Kata and fighting.

Be Breathed – the connection of naturally inhaling when we expand the body and exhaling when we contract the body. Understood by most and understood by only a very few. This statement seems contradictory but it is the reality.

I think most of us grasp the concept that as we expand the body we inhale and as we compress the body we exhale. So on this level most martial artists (and others) understand this set of principles.

However taking this into practice for natural breathing is an entirely different level of understanding because now you have to practice it and to do that you need to truly understand that natural link between body expansion and contraction and breathing.

Scott’s term “Be Breathed” is deliberate because if you consider your body breathing you then you can grasp the subtleties of what we are discussing.

The next hurdle we faced both in Kata and particularly in fighting was that if we contract (most often) on striking and we breath out on contractions AND we hit all the time – then when the heck and how do we inhale?

Our goal is to hit with each and every movement. The first realization was that in the way we move there are strikes performed as we expand the body – often in a “splitting” movement. So we found the inhale.

Finding the expansion movements where we strike places the inhales.

However, we still had places when the strikes were so rapid and all of them were with a chain of body compressions – so how do we balance inhales and exhales?

The answer was in the Trinity Breathing!

Trinity Breathing is based on the fact there are four levels of breath and three that we can tap into while we are alive.

You can use two to three short exhales to work through the levels of exhale.

Each of these is accompanied by a body compression.

What this means is we can have two or three moves that compress our body and we can exhale at each of these.

Now our exhale is very Uechi in that we do not totally hollow out our abdomen. We retain diaphragm presser to protect ourselves.

So in fighting we found that we can have two short exhales on a quick hit hit move and then strike as we expand the body an inhale.

We find this in Kata to like in the elbow back fist – no expansion this is two compressions so we do two of the quick exhales and then expand as we do the next move.

In Seisan the triple shoken are best done with three fast compression strikes and this brings us to the edge of the trinity breathing with three short exhales and then we come up and expand into the draw back of the Sanchin strike.

In Sanchin I exhale on the strike AND exhale on the retraction of the strike and then I breathe in as I step and chamber the next strike simultaneously. The two exhales when going full Kata speed are very fast and are “almost” like one breathe but they are two because one longer breath is does not achieve the same results.

The easiest way to learn where in Kata to breathe is to leave your mouth open and exaggerate the body expansion and contraction as you do the Kata and see where you body ***** in breath and shoves it out.

The easiest way to learn where to do it in fighting is to slow down and exaggerate the body expansion and contractions and see where your body ***** in breath and shoves it out.

Lots of fun exploring…………. ”


Its not just the concepts it's the explorations , and like any training methods breathing should change adapt and mature , but it's the explorations that expand our understanding .

don't try , don't learn


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