Forget the Monday morning quarterbacking... She survived, that's what counts.
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david
Was She Effective?
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Was She Effective?
She survived through luck, not from any training... Don't get me wrong, if the feces hits the oscillating device as it did in this case, the chances of anyone walking away unscathed drop tremendously... However, falling to the ground while grappling with an knife-welding attacker and not realizing where the knife is going until it's over?!? Forgetting about the attacker's buddies until the attack is over?!? Those are two biggies... IMNSHO, it is only pure luck that the knife ended up in her attacker rather than her. I won't criticize lack of (discernable -sp?) technique, but keeping tabs on the weapon should be second nature for anyone with training... I know it was forefront in my mind! Also, knowing where the next threat is should be second nature to someone with (the correct) training...
Fundamentally, she survived... That's all we should hope for. And there's no reason to dwell on the incident, but there's also no reason to rationalize the mistakes... Learn from them what you can and then get on with your life.
(That's much easier said than done sometimes... )
Fundamentally, she survived... That's all we should hope for. And there's no reason to dwell on the incident, but there's also no reason to rationalize the mistakes... Learn from them what you can and then get on with your life.
(That's much easier said than done sometimes... )
Was She Effective?
Must be me... 
I guess I just don't believe my training prepares me for ALL contigencies and the changing dynamics of any and all situations.
The things I have survived I have always attributed as much to luck as skills. But, then again, I don't and never claimed to be the ultimate martial artist.
Back to training I go.
david
I guess I just don't believe my training prepares me for ALL contigencies and the changing dynamics of any and all situations.The things I have survived I have always attributed as much to luck as skills. But, then again, I don't and never claimed to be the ultimate martial artist.
Back to training I go.
david
Was She Effective?
Interesting post! Almost like a broken record, isn’t it?
When reality sets in, all dreams vanish, and all “expert” 8th Dan techniques leave town!!
Worth another shot from my forum:
<blockquote> According to Peyton, the adrenal effect has very likely left them with a distorted memory of what actually happened. He believes there are many cases where these “survivors” did not use the techniques or approach they trained on and “know” in the real combat incident.
“To the contrary, they may have done something entirely spontaneous_ not what they trained on at all_ that actually saved them. But they may recall as having performed as they trained because that is the only rational context within which to frame the adrenal event.”</blockquote>
Recall the NY incident with the lady kick boxer? She reported similar delusions. And this is not to single out women, as men are even more delusional about these things. You want to guess how many of us are thinking right now that we are much better prepared to handle that situation?
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Van Canna
When reality sets in, all dreams vanish, and all “expert” 8th Dan techniques leave town!!
Worth another shot from my forum:
<blockquote> According to Peyton, the adrenal effect has very likely left them with a distorted memory of what actually happened. He believes there are many cases where these “survivors” did not use the techniques or approach they trained on and “know” in the real combat incident.
“To the contrary, they may have done something entirely spontaneous_ not what they trained on at all_ that actually saved them. But they may recall as having performed as they trained because that is the only rational context within which to frame the adrenal event.”</blockquote>
Recall the NY incident with the lady kick boxer? She reported similar delusions. And this is not to single out women, as men are even more delusional about these things. You want to guess how many of us are thinking right now that we are much better prepared to handle that situation?
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Van Canna
Was She Effective?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Recall the NY incident with the lady kick boxer? She reported similar delusions. And this is not to single out women, as men are even more delusional about these things. You want to guess how many of us are thinking right now that we are much better prepared to handle that situation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Count me out!
I just feel lucky to get up every morning!
Handle any of these altercations? Hell NO!
Just do your (my) best to survive!
Rereading my post, it sounds more critical than intended, but my point was... not to dwell on the mistakes, to learn from them and move on. Also, from reading the article, I got the impression that she felt like she performed up to the level of her training. I must agree with the assessment that that is dangerously delusional. My point isn't that I would have performed better - I didn't and don't believe that - just that after it's all over you can believe you did your grand poo-bah techniques all you want, but truth be told (and as Canna-sempai and Quinn have pointed out) what you probably did was based on luck and instinct to survive... pure and simple...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 26, 2000).]
Recall the NY incident with the lady kick boxer? She reported similar delusions. And this is not to single out women, as men are even more delusional about these things. You want to guess how many of us are thinking right now that we are much better prepared to handle that situation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Count me out!
I just feel lucky to get up every morning!
Handle any of these altercations? Hell NO!
Just do your (my) best to survive!
Rereading my post, it sounds more critical than intended, but my point was... not to dwell on the mistakes, to learn from them and move on. Also, from reading the article, I got the impression that she felt like she performed up to the level of her training. I must agree with the assessment that that is dangerously delusional. My point isn't that I would have performed better - I didn't and don't believe that - just that after it's all over you can believe you did your grand poo-bah techniques all you want, but truth be told (and as Canna-sempai and Quinn have pointed out) what you probably did was based on luck and instinct to survive... pure and simple...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 26, 2000).]
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gmattson
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Was She Effective?
The article was 8-10 years old. We all had our heads in the sand back then.
Lets not be so critical of our basic martial arts. . . it brings people into our dojo and gives them a core system. Once the basic system has taken hold, (2nd - 3rd degree) a rational teacher will bring in experts from other disciplines who specialize in realistic training, using the student's root system as a base.
Knocking the root system isn't the answer. . . expanding one's understanding and practice is.
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GEM
Lets not be so critical of our basic martial arts. . . it brings people into our dojo and gives them a core system. Once the basic system has taken hold, (2nd - 3rd degree) a rational teacher will bring in experts from other disciplines who specialize in realistic training, using the student's root system as a base.
Knocking the root system isn't the answer. . . expanding one's understanding and practice is.
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GEM
Was She Effective?
GEM-sensei,
Right on target! But we will always get an argument here from the Uechi-Ryu "bourgeoisie" looking down their noses at the "proletariat" !
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Van Canna
Right on target! But we will always get an argument here from the Uechi-Ryu "bourgeoisie" looking down their noses at the "proletariat" !
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Van Canna
Was She Effective?
Professor,
Naturally, any serious martial arts practitioner will fair better than those without training. It isn't a comment for or against our basic martial arts training, but rather a comment on the lack of many to gain a thorough understanding of their style and then bring in or cross-train with experts of other (more realistic, perhaps ? ) styles/methods.
While you're correct that we were all naive ~10 years ago, this woman was a noted champion in her style. IMNSHO, that puts her at the very least in your 2-3rd Dan range and probably higher. I don't criticize her style, her survival, or her moving ahead after the incident... I applaud them all!
Where the criticism lies is in the thought that she (a noted "expert") utilized her training to the best advantage. It's not something to dwell on for anyone, but to be realistic with one's-self, denying certain potentially fatal mistakes only creates a certain "comfort level" (to steal a phrase) that allows one to continue as if nothing has changed. My criticism (and there's no follow-up to say that it didn't happen) is the seeming lack of learning and growing from the experience.
As was posted in a different thread, to dwell on an altercation is useless because that altercation is over and you probably will never get into another one the same way again. However, it is also useless to lose the knowledge that can be gained by failing to objectively looking at the good and the bad that occurred during the altercation...
It's a fine line that is tough to walk. But it's also a journey that (again IMNSHO) is well worth the pain AND revelation.
As always, what I just rambled to say, you put very eloquently:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Naturally, any serious martial arts practitioner will fair better than those without training. It isn't a comment for or against our basic martial arts training, but rather a comment on the lack of many to gain a thorough understanding of their style and then bring in or cross-train with experts of other (more realistic, perhaps ? ) styles/methods.
While you're correct that we were all naive ~10 years ago, this woman was a noted champion in her style. IMNSHO, that puts her at the very least in your 2-3rd Dan range and probably higher. I don't criticize her style, her survival, or her moving ahead after the incident... I applaud them all!
Where the criticism lies is in the thought that she (a noted "expert") utilized her training to the best advantage. It's not something to dwell on for anyone, but to be realistic with one's-self, denying certain potentially fatal mistakes only creates a certain "comfort level" (to steal a phrase) that allows one to continue as if nothing has changed. My criticism (and there's no follow-up to say that it didn't happen) is the seeming lack of learning and growing from the experience.
As was posted in a different thread, to dwell on an altercation is useless because that altercation is over and you probably will never get into another one the same way again. However, it is also useless to lose the knowledge that can be gained by failing to objectively looking at the good and the bad that occurred during the altercation...
It's a fine line that is tough to walk. But it's also a journey that (again IMNSHO) is well worth the pain AND revelation.
As always, what I just rambled to say, you put very eloquently:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
"Knocking the root system isn't the answer. . . expanding one's understanding and practice is."
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gmattson
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Was She Effective?
You are always too kind Panther. I have my own theories on what we are trying to accomplish with our kata and traditional drills and applications. The one area that might be relevant here is that we practice exaggerated moves in the kata that might appear as a shrug and slightly modified 'throwing up of one's hands' when under the chemical cocktail. The difference between the shrug and hands reflex prior to training and with a couple of years under one's belt may mean the difference in being stabbed and survival.
The young lady in question might not have recognized the moves that saved her life, since they may not have been clearly recognized as 'traditional' moves from her kata or drills.
However: No question that today we are blessed with many specialist who can help us with our mindset and through stress-drills and role playing.
It is shortsighted not to recognize and utilize these specialist in our traditional dojo.
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GEM
I have my own theories on what we are trying to accomplish with our kata and traditional drills and applications. The one area that might be relevant here is that we practice exaggerated moves in the kata that might appear as a shrug and slightly modified 'throwing up of one's hands' when under the chemical cocktail. The difference between the shrug and hands reflex prior to training and with a couple of years under one's belt may mean the difference in being stabbed and survival.The young lady in question might not have recognized the moves that saved her life, since they may not have been clearly recognized as 'traditional' moves from her kata or drills.
However: No question that today we are blessed with many specialist who can help us with our mindset and through stress-drills and role playing.
It is shortsighted not to recognize and utilize these specialist in our traditional dojo.
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GEM
Was She Effective?
Professor,
Just call 'em like I sees 'em!
The older I get, the more I think I'm starting to gain a little wisdom... Then someone who really understands what's going on comes along and makes me realize how much more I need to study/learn/ contemplate!
That's usually the way I feel when reading your and Canna-sempai's posts!
BTW, just curious... do you and the Van-man ever, ahem... imbibe of the ancient and honorable rice wine?
Just call 'em like I sees 'em!
The older I get, the more I think I'm starting to gain a little wisdom... Then someone who really understands what's going on comes along and makes me realize how much more I need to study/learn/ contemplate!
That's usually the way I feel when reading your and Canna-sempai's posts!
BTW, just curious... do you and the Van-man ever, ahem... imbibe of the ancient and honorable rice wine?
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Jake Steinmann
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Was She Effective?
"Forget the Monday morning quarterbacking... She survived, that's what counts."
Well said!
Let's face it...things is the street are not going to look as clean and pretty as they do in the dojo setting. There are simply too many unpredictable factors out there that do not exist in kata, kumite, ect.
I'm not knocking kata, kumite, or anything else, btw...just making a point. You don't run through a Sanchin during a fight...you just fight.
She survived and got away. Did her training make a difference? There's no way to know for sure. But she didn't roll over and die, and that's what counts.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Well said!
Let's face it...things is the street are not going to look as clean and pretty as they do in the dojo setting. There are simply too many unpredictable factors out there that do not exist in kata, kumite, ect.
I'm not knocking kata, kumite, or anything else, btw...just making a point. You don't run through a Sanchin during a fight...you just fight.
She survived and got away. Did her training make a difference? There's no way to know for sure. But she didn't roll over and die, and that's what counts.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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gmattson
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Was She Effective?
Not as much as we should Panther. However, after class we often relive the old days and discuss the future over capachino. (sp)
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GEM
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GEM
Was She Effective?
Here is something from Drusiana of Italy, a female martial artist and free fighting champion, and extremely well respected.
<blockquote>Hello Angela, I have read what that you have written with much attention, but I cannot help not to think that the tatami is one, and the street is another. I am in a male environment, in which the physical contact is strongest. The fact to be accustomed to fight with heavier men than me, does not render sure the fact that in the face of rape attempt, I would succeed in having the same concentration and the same reactivity that I have in sport combat. There are the deep spheres of our mind that are difficult to educate only with the practice of a MA.
I repeat, I am not at all sure that I would succeed to react in explosive fashion before a rape attack. To the end, what I want to say is that nobody can believe to find the miracle in the practice of the MA.
The MA " works already " on a __cultivated land_ : Our lives, our experiences, our genetic patrimony. And not vice versa.</blockquote>
Ciao, Drusiana
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Van Canna
<blockquote>Hello Angela, I have read what that you have written with much attention, but I cannot help not to think that the tatami is one, and the street is another. I am in a male environment, in which the physical contact is strongest. The fact to be accustomed to fight with heavier men than me, does not render sure the fact that in the face of rape attempt, I would succeed in having the same concentration and the same reactivity that I have in sport combat. There are the deep spheres of our mind that are difficult to educate only with the practice of a MA.
I repeat, I am not at all sure that I would succeed to react in explosive fashion before a rape attack. To the end, what I want to say is that nobody can believe to find the miracle in the practice of the MA.
The MA " works already " on a __cultivated land_ : Our lives, our experiences, our genetic patrimony. And not vice versa.</blockquote>
Ciao, Drusiana
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Van Canna
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Jake Steinmann
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Was She Effective?
Last night, I had the pleasure of seeing Coach Blauer at Rich Pelletiers dojo in Lewiston.
When I walked in the door, Coach was saying something to the class...and it immediately made me think of this thread.
"The only mistake in a streetfight is quitting."
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
When I walked in the door, Coach was saying something to the class...and it immediately made me think of this thread.
"The only mistake in a streetfight is quitting."
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Was She Effective?
>>"The only mistake in a streetfight is quitting."<<
That sums it up nicely. Beyond that, there is much beyond control. I seen enough good fighters gone down to think otherwise.
You can train as hard and as dilligently as possible in the dojo but it is still a "controlled" situation. The mind knows this no matter how hard one goes at it. The street is much more dynamic and the mind knows it. It's for keeps. Because the mind knows some folks can't get much of an adrenal surge in the dojo or even in a tournament.
Anyone who thinks that a street situation is going to follow the choreography of a prearranged kumite or the restrained aggression of the "free sparring" is in for a surprise. When you survived something, there is almost always an element of "but for the Grace of ..." That's my take on it.
david
That sums it up nicely. Beyond that, there is much beyond control. I seen enough good fighters gone down to think otherwise.
You can train as hard and as dilligently as possible in the dojo but it is still a "controlled" situation. The mind knows this no matter how hard one goes at it. The street is much more dynamic and the mind knows it. It's for keeps. Because the mind knows some folks can't get much of an adrenal surge in the dojo or even in a tournament.
Anyone who thinks that a street situation is going to follow the choreography of a prearranged kumite or the restrained aggression of the "free sparring" is in for a surprise. When you survived something, there is almost always an element of "but for the Grace of ..." That's my take on it.
david
