Since you're such a tough guy...

[dmsdc]

Again - wonderful, thoughtful responses all around.

Yes - concrete answers are possible and something to be explored in a another thread (to be open very soon)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

The truth is that most women deal with confrontations like this all the time in the dojo, whereas most men of average or better size are lulled into a mental comfort zone. The few big guys that eventually meet up with their match or better are humbled, and many find it difficult to take. It is only natural to feel mentally defeated. It is the essence of martial spirit to continue on.

We've lost 2 different male students on our dojo who got blasted once and never came back. Taking your 1st decent shot seems to be a major rite of passage -- and one that is repeated and repeated as our skills and intensity grows.

To add perspective -- for a beginning female student, just holding the kicking shield and feeling that force enter into your body over and over again can be a first rite of passage into the world of fighting. We've lost more than one female student after a night of bag-holding.

I can only relate what went on in my own mind -- I'm holding this huge pad in front of me when I'm a white belt. My teacher and a green belt guy a throwing round-house kicks. WHAMP, WHAMP, WHAMP, WHAMP.

After about 5 kicks my pulse and breathing rate go way up. After about 15 kicks I start to feel very, very nervous. Thinking "Jesus, if this is the kind of force I'm supposed to deal with and stop, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this stuff without body armour." By the end of class I was shaking and questioning if I had the mettle to actually train this way. Keep in mind, all I did was hold the kicking shield.

I do not consider myself to be an exceptional woman. I'm guessing that I react in a pretty typical way.

Did anybody notice I was shaken up? Did anybody follow up with me to ask if I was OK? nope. I'm sure it never occured to anybody that I was having a strong reaction to bag holding. Maybe this is part of the weeding out that Bill and David are referring to. And it also goes back to an instructor knowing the possible pit-falls for a woman entering into training.

I think some of those pit-falls or stumbling blocks might be surprising.
So here's a list off the top of my head -- in no particular order:

In another thread Bruce H. was surprised to find out that most women will not cut their finger nails to train.

Most women will also have a hard time telling a partner to lighten up if they don't hear anyone else do it first.

Most will have a hard time, the first few times, holding the shield for high-impact strikes.

Most will have a hard time taking their 1st several punches to the body. (read as: arm-punding as well)

Most will have an even harder time taking punches or particularly slaps to the face.

And you'd better tell a woman that they're going to take their gi tops off during class before they join your school if you do this during sanchin testing. Most guys are pretty used to the shirts & skins world of team play. I can assure you that women didn't come up with that system. So do tell a woman <bf>in advance </f> she's going to take her shirt off in a room full of men.

---gotta run.
Dana



[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited January 22, 2002).]

[david]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Did anybody notice I was shaken up? Did anybody follow up with me to ask if I was OK? nope. I'm sure it never occured to anybody that I was having a strong reaction to bag holding. Maybe this is part of the weeding out that Bill and David are referring to. And it also goes back to an instructor knowing the possible pit-falls for a woman entering into training.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dana,
Funny you should mention the shield. In fact, I use that as an "intro" into taking body contact. I watch very carefully how folks are taking the impact and suggest ways to dissipate the impact. Where the disparity in force and size is great, I make sure that a small person, e.g. one of the women in the group, doesn't take the impact of a kick from someone 6' tall and two hundred plus. I, on the other hand, like to hold that shield for that person because I can then judge whether that person is pushing rather than impacting.

I actually have a lot of conversations with those I train with, in and out of the dojo/workout place. It's perhaps easier for me because we are small and there is minimal hierachy. We are more friends with different skill levels. Plus, a drink loosens my tongue and I am almost always a happy drunk. So, I can say that I have a pretty good sense of where different members are at with their goals and what they are feeling in the workouts. I pretty much know why folks I trained with have dropped out. Most are still touch with me. Most are my friends still. Again, communication, communication, communication. And, then, do it again.

The only person I purposedly "weeded out" (as opposed to "weeding" themselves out) is the woman I referred to several posts up -- the one who wanted to "dish" but didn't want to receive. She's a "taker" and our training group is about "sharing." She presented a bad dynamic. Though she has asked to come back, I don't particularly want to invest my time or the group's time dealing with her. This is/was not a hasty decision. It was after 3 years working with her. A shame in some ways, because she is also one with natural given talent. But she's a "taker" and that won't do, at least not in our group.

david

PS. I gonna say, again, my training group is not a general dojo. So, the dynamics may be entirely different that what goes on elsewhere. We self-select. I have always had women in the group, albeit they a minority like in MA's in general. Once they're in the group, our training is very much responsive to what is going to work for the individual be they big/small, male/female. I chose this venue because I like to work with individuals who share similar goals and passion -- regardless of their gender.


[This message has been edited by david (edited January 22, 2002).]

[Ronin1966]

Hello Dana,

<You avoided me for every partner excercise until I was a brown belt.>

That's easy... perhaps you were ~too scary~, and beat all our brains in possibly >: >? Honestly, cannot say, unfortunately we never crossed paths (but being form a different art, that's going to be a ~challenge~ <wg>), I don't care man, woman, child if you're wearing a uniform, and seem in control, I'll gladly work w/ you... as will anyone I know.

<2) When you did conditioning with me it was with a smirk on your face because I couldn't hit you hard enough.

Maybe... could be because it HURT too *@#)@ much, and the ~tiny smirk~ was hiding a grimmace of MINE, that had nothing to do w/ you ??? Perhaps, those men admired the spirit and determination you were showing, OR maybe they were flirting, I wasn't one of them so I could not say <gentle shrug>

<3) You never bothered to learn how to control your power because if I really wanted to learn I would need to be shown "how it would really happen"

Are you suggesting you wanted to "let go" and go "full tilt", but nobody would ever work w/ you despite asking >: z ? Or are you saying that the men you were interacting w/ were ~immature people~, and you never called them on it?

4) Instead of exploring your own ability to fight w/o power you just made me do the same power drills over and over

Was not there, cannot say... does not sound like a ~mature place~ to study to me (: s, based purely on your explaination of course...

Did you never have the conversation w/ these "gorillas", BEFORE the slamming started and ask them, what was happening when they worked w/ you and you (Dana) asking them, "...here's my view of the previous situation..."

<5) You told me this was a half soft style but you never bothered to learn that part and so you can't teach that part

Truly unfortunate. Not all of us are "external hard stylists" I am happy to say... but nor am I a Uechi person, but I understand your views very well. Being "external", being hard (sic. RIGID) is easy to do, but being efficent, having the ability to use minimal force to achieve the result, THAT is hard...

<I understand this seems like a big ole guy bashing rant.

Ever "ranted" w/ any of your classmates on PRECISELY these subjects??? If not, it's HIGH time, who knows perhaps we're all misreading the "signals" being sent <hopeful tiny grin> on both sides maybe?

<That as a lesser person

As a huge generality anyone who is smaller in height, weight, more "mature" (in terms of life experience (i.e. age; )) it is far, far more interesting to watch their art, and how they demonstrate same.

They cannot depend on mass and bulk to get the job done, so their technique MUST be inherently more efficent, more honed... IMHV.
Glad to see you bear no grudges on your ~testosterone poisoned~ classmates!!!

Take hope, not all of us are the "enemy"!

Thoughts?

Jeff

[dmsdc]

Jeff,

I have had several conversations with dojo mates about these very topics.
Most of the men I trained with and do train with are really great guys. But a lack of communication can change any interaction. All of my negative early experiences happened because there was not open communication -- because I didn't see anybody else asking their partner to lighten up so I figured talking wasn't acceptable. (Keep in mind I was just starting my training when many of these things happened. Actually people were asking other to lighten up -- they just did it too softly for me to hear.)

Today, I have very clear and strong boundries in my training and I have no fear of telling a training partner what I need. I am comfortable in my abilities and I know that there is nothing to be gained if I get hurt just to save my pride.

I am also sharing these points in a broader way because so many women have never found their voice in their dojo and have left karate. I think this is a great loss.

Try to keep in mind the feeling you had the first time you realized that you were up against someone who could really, really injure you by accident due to the overwhelming difference in your power/weight ratios.

This is the feeling I had my first two years on the floor. People in Uechi hit hard, and we put our lives in each other's hands by trusting the level of control of our training partners. Women who train with men put a lot of trust and faith in their partner's ability to control their power and that act of faith will not be achieved in an dojo that isn't open to understanding where women are coming from - what their concerns or fears may be - and how to work all that out in a mostly male, often paramilitary environment.

Dana

[LeeDarrow]

Back when I was training, there were few women in our classes.

I learned the hard way that a woman of the same rank can be extremely dangerous. Ask student about my first tournament sometime. It was part of a standup comedy routine I used to do - and just about everything in the routine was true. Including ALL of the pain I experienced in that allegedly "no contact" tournament!

One thing that I have noticed over the years is that many women tend to block more effectively than men, possibly due to the general size/weight/upper body strength discrepencies and partly due to simple motivation.

Notice, I said effectively, not harder.

A great teacher once taught me one of the secrets to good yari-jitsu (spearsmanship). "It's like a sapling in a snowball fight. You move to one side of it or the other and you can't get hit."

The next day I competed in an open regional level tournament in the SCA and "stood the field," which means to challenge all comers, to spear-to-spear combat. Mock weapons, no butt strokes allowed for safety reasons.

I never received a wound. Primarily because of his one comment, because I had never picked up that particular weapon until the day before the event.

Many women karateka that I have seen seem to apply this concept to their blocking technique as well. Move AND block. Move enough to be out of the direct line of attack, block enough to ward a secondary strike as well as the initial (a continuing contact kind of blocking during the strike and withdraw).

Now, I admit, this might have changed over the years, but I have found that, during my active years, this seemed to hold true whether the woman was consciously aware of it or not.

Perhaps this is worth looking into from a tactical and strategic standpoint?

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.ht.

[student]

I won't attmept to reproduce in print a routine that must be seen to be appreciated fully, but if Lee ever makes it to summer camp, and you hear the phrase "...and a green garden hose tied around her waist as a belt," sit back, relax, kick your shoes off, prepare to laugh.

Actually, prepare to howl.

student

[Ronin1966]

Hello Dana,

<I have had several conversations with dojo mates about these very topics.

Amen : )!!!

I have observed far too many places dojo, dojang, kwan which are large on the external surface of the concept (yelling, screaming, asinine externalism, (i.e. inane militancy) but 100% were incapable of mature conversation during, before OR after classes! But boy they do count loudly... <violent cringing>

We are all people, mature when we take the classes! I am always appalled and flabbergasted by the somewhat infantile behavior students will allow, because they completely misunderstood something in the class atmosphere generally or some aspect of a given drill.

SPEAK UP, if there's a question, or if you're being harmed, don't "just take it"!!! That's foolish. If you are "just taking it", the necessity for doing so must be explained so everyone understands the purpose of the exercise. Being pounded for the sake of being pounded, sorry... I'm not brain dead, nor a gorilla. I require understanding before I blindly do a thing.

Thoughtful training is a GOOD thing IMHO-fwiw!

<a lack of communication can change any interaction. All of my negative early experiences happened because there was not open communication--

Was that you or them though?!?! Were you the only one, in that situation, or did ~everybody~ badly misunderstand what was happening, based on strange assumptions and or faulty, incorrect beliefs?

<I am also sharing these points in a broader way because so many women have never found their voice in their dojo and have left karate.

This is not the sole perview of our ~lady classmates~ I fear. Many men have been foolishly, stupidly zealous and harmed or been harmed by the training, based on an incorrect belief. ~... If I hit this makiwara/brick/concrete as hard as I can for years and years I'll get REALLY good....~
(sic. no clown, you'll injure yourself severely, take it down "20 notches" in intensity, and pay attention, you'll get there.... too fast and your so-called hands will get pulverized). It does not matter foolish, excessive zeal will harm any of us.

There are many ~unnecessary losses~ in training, men, women, children. Hopefully whatever their experiences were, they were positive so that... with us or not, they will think back FONDLY upon them, and perhaps renew their persuit?!

<Try to keep in mind the feeling you had the first time you realized that you were up against someone who could really, really injure you by accident due to the overwhelming difference in your power/weight ratios.

<LOL> That was the entire first two lines of people ahead of me. Now I'm ~in front~ <look of perplexed confusion>.

<People in Uechi hit hard, and we put our lives in each other's hands by trusting the level of control of our training partners.

Exactly my point. Regardless of the art, w/o trust, and absolute certainty, some I will never work with w/o the intensity you would actively bring to the life/death assault. These folks are literally too dangerous to do anything else but be FULLY 100% cautious, and weary.

I respect your thoughts w/ regard to this being a ~particular challenge~ to/of/for ladies in classes, but as a man, I would propose, (respectfully) this is definately not the case. All of us get ~shreaded~ if we don't open our mouths, and find out the goal(s) of our teachers and their intentions for us as students. If the goals are strange, or not the ones we share.... <gentle shrug>

I may wear "white" but I'm no SHEEP. Too many people are, w/o good cause...IMV.

Sincerely,

Jeff
Windwarrior@Msn.Com

[Norm Abrahamson]

Dana,
I'm coming into this thread a little late, but it sparked my interest. I started martial arts training 22 years ago when I was 20. The first time I sparred was against a female green belt. I remember thinking that I would be mortified if I lost. I hit her very hard and with absolutely no control. As soon as I did it, I regretted it. The problem was my insecurity. I would bet that a lot of the smirks and hard shots you get are a result of the insecurity of the person you are training with. Thankfully, with training and age I matured in the art.

As I get older, I find the softer aspects of the art more enticing and important. I don't heal as fast as I used to. I also train in Ju Jitsu and have found that it helps me to explore and appreciate some of the softer aspects of Uechi that are not practiced in many dojos.

Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson

[Stryke]

Hi nice thread here has encouraged a few thoughts , In my club we insist when women do sparring they wear a chest protector , not just for there safty but it sure helps me relax and spar a little more honestly , do others of you out there have a similar policy ? , Do the women in this forum think this is a fair policy , I tend to believe they feel more confident with the protection , but is it a presumption to make it mandatory ?

[LeeDarrow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by student:
I won't attmept to reproduce in print a routine that must be seen to be appreciated fully, but if Lee ever makes it to summer camp, and you hear the phrase "...and a green garden hose tied around her waist as a belt," sit back, relax, kick your shoes off, prepare to laugh.

Actually, prepare to howl.

student<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, my friend.

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

[dmsdc]

Thank you again for more thoughtful insights.

We are not sheep. And Eleanor Roosevelts put it "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

By keeping silent I played a similar role in these encounters. I had just as much onus as anyone else to speak up for my boundries. And I still stayed quiet too often out of pride and not wanting to look like the "weak" woman in class. And just to say it again, most of these types of things happened between white and brown belt. Since then I've had no troubles on the floor.

I know of 2 people who were recently injured by a ranking teacher in Okinawa during Sanchin testing -- you'd think in this day and age folks wouldn't go smashing on students whose limits they don't know -- but all are not moving toward enlightenment.
And still, at a certain level the student choses to just stand there. So it bring into question the whole teacher/student dynamic in the dojo. How much responsbility in on the teacher to keep track of partner work going on in class. What is realistic?

***

Chest protectors can be helpful - to a point. I think once you reach a certain level you need to be able to give and take some body shots in order to improve in training. We don't have a really formal way that sparring is introduced to new students. Sometimes their first experience is slow speed sparring in regular classes with no protection. Others happen to come on a Saturday when we're playing point sparring. It would seem a little strange to ask only the female students to wear chest protectors. If I were running my own school I'd probably be inclined to invite all white belt students to wear them at first - for equity's sake.

Dana

[candan]

Much respect for your open discussion on what is always an issue in coed situations. Please refer to the article section of this web site and note "Using Uechi Ryu to overcome lifes challenges" The attacking male refered to was no other than I. I was often tempted to challenge the article as I am not in agreement with the facts and please be aware that I have no means on this forum of proving otherwise, also it would serve no purpose. What is important is what was perceived, would a male of simular stature discribe the incident the same way? Did her fellow students set her up for the fall by treating her differently? Did I feel worse because I possibly inficted injury (disputable) on a female instead of a male? Yes! Did she perceive my "attack" as vicous? Likely so. That incident forced me to treat a female partner differently than I would a male of the same ability, rank, age and size based on what she may perceive.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited February 01, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by candan (edited February 01, 2002).]

[dmsdc]

Candan,

I have read the article. It seems to me that what happened is, for the most part, something that could happen at any time when students new to each other train together. Timing is different, expectations of what people are going to do are different, etc.

We had a gentleman join our dojo that was used to throwing a shoken to the ribs, after throwing the leg after the takedown in Dan Kumite. I was used to using the throw of the leg to stand up. So the first time we trained together I stood up into his shoken. Yeouch!

Unfortunately your incident happened male/female. So some people are going to assign responsibility to you as the physically stronger partner that you should somehow be responsible for how the uke falls. Unlike most judo throws, where you can choose to lesson the fall by pulling up on your uke -- the dan kumite take down does now allow for any such help. Once they are heading for the ground they are on their own. In true application this is a very lethal technique if you can get it -- which is why a incident like this can occur in class.

My main goal in this thread is to promote awareness and an open dialogue. It is not to assign blame. If people talk to each other more about what they are experiencing on the floor, everyone can have better training. IMHO.
Dana

[candan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmsdc:
ATH mentioned in the other thread that there is a willingness to adapt what we teach in school for children but no same accomodations are to be made for women.

Please note that I'm trying to be contrary here - what I'm going to say isn't sugar coated.

That being said:

I know mostly men read these forums and I'd really love to hear some honest answers about why: (and this is all from personal anecdotal experience)

1) You avoided me for every partner excercise until I was a brown belt.

2) When you did conditioning with me it was with a smirk on your face because I couldn't hit you hard enough. (of course, now, your face and arms turn red because, at least in this drill, I can hit you harder than you can hit me.)

3) You never bothered to learn how to control your power because if I really wanted to learn I would need to be shown "how it would really happen"

4) Instead of exploring your own ability to fight without power you just made me do the same power drills over and over knowing that they'd never really work (see #3) (conversely, if I ever did manage to get in a good tag you had to hit me back harder than any reasonable person would need to just to show me who's still going to win in the end)

5) You told me this was a half soft style but you never bothered to learn that part and so you can't teach that part so why the heck would I pay for a whole style when I'm only get taught 1/2 (or worse yet a 1/3 of one? (This comment is based mostly on seminar experience - don't want you all thinkinng I'm bashing my own teacher here. Bob Kaiser is a good man and has been a good teacher to me for 5 years.)

I understand this seems like a big ole guy bashing rant. But I can tell you that each of these things has happened, some many more times than just once.

But hey - I should just apologize for slowing down your training, right? And thank you for the precious few moments when you shuffled over to work with me because all the other (male) partners were taken.

No, it's not all of you. I hope to God that it's not most of you. But it's enough of you to have left a bitter taste in my mouth. That as a lesser person I would take out on the new male students by showing them how a "real" woman can hit hard, take a shot, and take you down in the end.

I don't do that. I treat all new students with the same respect my teacher showed me.
Which sometimes means doing conditioning or kumite with someone who will help me with my teaching skills, instead of my limb bashing skills.

Dana

(see what happens when I can't sleep?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After reveiwing your post I must admit I answered yes to one of these (not saying which one) can not change past but can try to infuence future. It increased my awareness and some more blinders are off.
Also thanks for the insightfull review of the "torn in my side" no rights no wrongs just the facts. I highly respect you fellow student of Uechi

[This message has been edited by candan (edited February 05, 2002).]

[Cecil]

ou told me this was a half soft style but you never bothered to learn that part and so you can't teach that part so why the heck would I pay for a whole style when I'm only get taught 1/2 (or worse yet a 1/3 of one? (This comment is based mostly on seminar experience - don't want you all thinkinng I'm bashing my own teacher here. Bob Kaiser is a good man and has been a good teacher to me for 5 years.)"

This don't just happen to women. I have had to deal with that in
the past. If you find a teacher who understands the yin and
yang, I say stick with that person as long as you can. Because there
are not that many of them.

One thing I've learned recently is that you're only going to get
from most instructors the areas that are their forte. The rest is
up to you. If you are lucky enough to find a well rounded teacher
with whom you can grow, I say get on your knees and thank your
Higher Power.

"So you see there are women out there who think that the power techniques aren't working because they're not doing them right. They have no idea that they just can't overpower most men. Because their teachers either don't care enough or don't know enough to think about it from a woman's point of view."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my current level of understanding is
that you are not supposed to be opposing power with power. That
those blocks are meant to be done from the side or at an angle.
That's how I saw it done in a real fight. Yes, a real fight.
Yes, against a bigger, stronger, meaner, literally psychopathic
man. Yes, it worked. Yes, the blocker was in a horse stance. He
probably had just been taught how to use his karate the right way.
No, he was not a westerner. Yes, I think that a lot of us have been
half-taught. Oh well, that's the breaks.

I think about the two times I have wacked a woman. Both times,
they walked right into the punch. They thought that being
aggressive and fast alone would work. They walked right into
the fist, just like I have walked right into fists whenever I
thought that being aggressive and fast would be enough.


Cecil
Badlands: An Underground Science Fiction Novel http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/8194