This was brought to my attention:
http://www.hercurve.com/self/brushcuts/control.html
Some very, very good insights on the dynamics.
Rory
Interesting article
Moderator: Available
Interesting article
Thanks, Rory, I like the link. Agree or disagree, you can't discount someone who's been through it and have thought about it.
david
david
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Dana Sheets
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Interesting article
Hi Rory,
Wow. Lots of ideas are brought up in this article. And from a rather unique perspective. I agree with David that she speaks with the voice of experience for some things (unfortunately), and is probably relating the experiences of her friends for others.
Either way she has, as David said, thought about her situation and makes some interesting ponts. So to pick one:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
it is a whole new world for many.
What the author talks here is is an entire subset of non-verbal body indicators and physical skills and mindset choices that men learn about in order to interact physically/socially and interact for fighting than many women are simply not exposed to.
I've never been to an all-woman MArts school so I don't know if the same non-verbal physical language is used or communicated. Now the filmmaker in me comes out:
I would love to follow 3 women -
1) a woman who is just starting to train in a mostly male, pretty hardcore, MArts school.
2) a woman who is just starting to train in an all women MArts school
3) a woman who is just starting her training as a boxer.
I'd follow them for a year, interview them over the course of that year - asking them some of the same questions each time. And the goal would be to see how their body language on the floor changes, how their body language outside of the school changes, and how their perceptions of mock violent/physical training/ and actual violent interactions change.
This addresses the idea of why women can't "just be like men" when they start training. They are not (not the most part) coming to the floor with the same experirences, rituals, and knowlege of levels of physical interaction. Really, if I think about it, (and hold on 'cause this is a generalization)many women's physical repetoire with other people includes:
handkshakes
hugs
kisses
sexual interactions with a significant other
non-contact sports (this one is starting to change)
How is the world does that prepare women to interact physically or mentally on the floor with a bunch of guys who grew up should-bumping each other off the sidewalk, arm-wrestling, fighting to the near death for the control of the remote, and punching each other in the stomach to say "hello"???
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 06, 2002).]
Wow. Lots of ideas are brought up in this article. And from a rather unique perspective. I agree with David that she speaks with the voice of experience for some things (unfortunately), and is probably relating the experiences of her friends for others.
Either way she has, as David said, thought about her situation and makes some interesting ponts. So to pick one:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
So when women step into a setting where there is physical violence/mock physical violence, such as a Martial Arts school, or being assaulted on the street,Men actually assault other men far more than they assault women, so taking on masculinity opens you up to an expanded world of violence. What's going to complicate your life, however, is that you don't get to leave the world of man-to-woman violence behind. While grown men don't actually fight that much, they have an almost universal experience with violence, much more so than women. Because fighting serves many social purposes for man-to-man interaction, they learn the skills of fighting more effectively. They also learn how to de-escalate or prevent fights based on rituals, signals and experience in reading their opponent. By comparison, women get cut off physical fights so young that many can't even form a fist, and most women's response to intimidation is to pretend to ignore it or run away in fear. It's what makes women such appealing targets for harassment. If we don't fight, we still display a satisfying level of fear and submission. When we do fight, we aren't prepared or trained to win. Many women who've fought off their assailants with a couple of effective punches will comment on the sheer shock value of a well-placed uppercut.
it is a whole new world for many.
What the author talks here is is an entire subset of non-verbal body indicators and physical skills and mindset choices that men learn about in order to interact physically/socially and interact for fighting than many women are simply not exposed to.
I've never been to an all-woman MArts school so I don't know if the same non-verbal physical language is used or communicated. Now the filmmaker in me comes out:
I would love to follow 3 women -
1) a woman who is just starting to train in a mostly male, pretty hardcore, MArts school.
2) a woman who is just starting to train in an all women MArts school
3) a woman who is just starting her training as a boxer.
I'd follow them for a year, interview them over the course of that year - asking them some of the same questions each time. And the goal would be to see how their body language on the floor changes, how their body language outside of the school changes, and how their perceptions of mock violent/physical training/ and actual violent interactions change.
This addresses the idea of why women can't "just be like men" when they start training. They are not (not the most part) coming to the floor with the same experirences, rituals, and knowlege of levels of physical interaction. Really, if I think about it, (and hold on 'cause this is a generalization)many women's physical repetoire with other people includes:
handkshakes
hugs
kisses
sexual interactions with a significant other
non-contact sports (this one is starting to change)
How is the world does that prepare women to interact physically or mentally on the floor with a bunch of guys who grew up should-bumping each other off the sidewalk, arm-wrestling, fighting to the near death for the control of the remote, and punching each other in the stomach to say "hello"???
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 06, 2002).]
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Interesting article
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Pick an appropriate fighting strategy. If you are small, develop speed. If you are larger, work on your strength. If you're smart, learn to think and hit at the same time (most people can't). If you're weak, learn targets that don't rely on strength. If you're timid, learn to stomp, yell and run.
Learn to assess yourself accurately. I'm always doubtful of classes that make people think a positive attitude and a groin kick will make them invincible. You're best defense is knowing exactly where you stand. How does your punch compare to other women? Other men? How fast is your kick? Can you fall? Can you keep your cool? What's your best asset? Your worst? I won't tell you to always fight, or always give in. Only you can make that decision, and arming yourself with realistic information is the only way to prepare.
Be more confident about fighting. Women's fear and willingness to ignore escalating harassment makes us good victims. When you are confident that you won't curl into a frightened ball or, conversely, explode with rage and kill someone, you are psychologically prepared to defend yourself. That defense might be running, fighting, or calling for help but you need confidence to commit yourself to your decisions.
Be more aware about the risks of fighting. A good martial arts course should scare the spit out of you. Learning how easily you can be broken and hurt are part of the deal. You don't ever want to be in a fight because you wanted to save face, because you were angry, or even because you were forced to defend yourself. Developing a healthy fear of fighting should help you keep out of those situations. The only fight you want to be in is one you can win.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What wonderful advice. I particular like the first set. I think everyone should work on everything. But we all can, and should specialize into the set of tactics in fighting that will work best for us as individuals.
What are some of the personal fighting styles people have here? Can you articulate it accurately?
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 08, 2002).]
Learn to assess yourself accurately. I'm always doubtful of classes that make people think a positive attitude and a groin kick will make them invincible. You're best defense is knowing exactly where you stand. How does your punch compare to other women? Other men? How fast is your kick? Can you fall? Can you keep your cool? What's your best asset? Your worst? I won't tell you to always fight, or always give in. Only you can make that decision, and arming yourself with realistic information is the only way to prepare.
Be more confident about fighting. Women's fear and willingness to ignore escalating harassment makes us good victims. When you are confident that you won't curl into a frightened ball or, conversely, explode with rage and kill someone, you are psychologically prepared to defend yourself. That defense might be running, fighting, or calling for help but you need confidence to commit yourself to your decisions.
Be more aware about the risks of fighting. A good martial arts course should scare the spit out of you. Learning how easily you can be broken and hurt are part of the deal. You don't ever want to be in a fight because you wanted to save face, because you were angry, or even because you were forced to defend yourself. Developing a healthy fear of fighting should help you keep out of those situations. The only fight you want to be in is one you can win.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What wonderful advice. I particular like the first set. I think everyone should work on everything. But we all can, and should specialize into the set of tactics in fighting that will work best for us as individuals.
What are some of the personal fighting styles people have here? Can you articulate it accurately?
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 08, 2002).]
Interesting article
Dana-
This part:
However, once that fight has begun, he won't stop unless he's reduced you to pulp. He'll be too afraid of losing to do anything else. Unlike a man-to-man fight, you won't win his respect or acceptance as an adversary; you're not likely to go a few rounds and then just walk away. Keeping his superiority as a man doesn't allow you room to be an equal or respected adversary. As such, a little threat and brinkmanship can work as a deterrent, but actually sparking a full-on brawl is a real danger.
And other related messages I found very valuable. Most men don't realize that the stakes for a woman in a physical altercation are higher than for a man. A man to man fight, (barring predation or other types of violence- just staying with the territory/dominance paradigm) one of the men will be beaten. A woman who dares to play will be punished- savagely beaten.
Therefor a woman's response must be exquisitely timed and completely devestating- conditions that only come into play for men in the very rare predation blitz..and very few instructors have the vaguest idea of how to train for it.
Rory
This part:
However, once that fight has begun, he won't stop unless he's reduced you to pulp. He'll be too afraid of losing to do anything else. Unlike a man-to-man fight, you won't win his respect or acceptance as an adversary; you're not likely to go a few rounds and then just walk away. Keeping his superiority as a man doesn't allow you room to be an equal or respected adversary. As such, a little threat and brinkmanship can work as a deterrent, but actually sparking a full-on brawl is a real danger.
And other related messages I found very valuable. Most men don't realize that the stakes for a woman in a physical altercation are higher than for a man. A man to man fight, (barring predation or other types of violence- just staying with the territory/dominance paradigm) one of the men will be beaten. A woman who dares to play will be punished- savagely beaten.
Therefor a woman's response must be exquisitely timed and completely devestating- conditions that only come into play for men in the very rare predation blitz..and very few instructors have the vaguest idea of how to train for it.
Rory
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Interesting article
Beaten vs punished
Yeah - that's a very important distinction.
I don't think most women realize that they have a step above fighting in them. That step above being to punish. The women who do seem to know it have had to live very hard lives to find it out.
You seem to have had good success training women Rory, are there any particulars to your method you could share on getting women past the "women are docile" message of our culture?
Dana
Yeah - that's a very important distinction.
I don't think most women realize that they have a step above fighting in them. That step above being to punish. The women who do seem to know it have had to live very hard lives to find it out.
You seem to have had good success training women Rory, are there any particulars to your method you could share on getting women past the "women are docile" message of our culture?
Dana
Interesting article
"As a butch, you must remember you're an unusual woman, one with potentially unknown qualities, and this can work to your advantage. "
A woman trying to butch her way to fighting confidence is just like how some guys try to bull their way to fighting confidence. After a certain point, if you don't start thinking about what you are doing, you will not get any better. I know a lot of people value agression in "a real fight", but as Peyton Quinn puts it in "Bouncer's Guide...." it's good to have alternative strategies and tactics, so that you can have a "Stay Out of Jail Plan". I think that in the future, as gender bias start to relax, cops and judges will blink less at putting women behind bars if they use excessive force.
A woman trying to butch her way to fighting confidence is just like how some guys try to bull their way to fighting confidence. After a certain point, if you don't start thinking about what you are doing, you will not get any better. I know a lot of people value agression in "a real fight", but as Peyton Quinn puts it in "Bouncer's Guide...." it's good to have alternative strategies and tactics, so that you can have a "Stay Out of Jail Plan". I think that in the future, as gender bias start to relax, cops and judges will blink less at putting women behind bars if they use excessive force.
Interesting article
""Aw, poor baby, are you all mad because I hurt your feelings?"
That's DE-esculation? Sounds like some dangerous advice.
"Those of you who've been verbally harassed will no doubt recognize this coward's tactic - a guy says something offensive about you... to his friend... as they're walking away. It's very passive-aggressive and it can work for you as well. This allows you to vent your verbal hostility without actually getting in a fight. Frankly, harasssing men need to be challenged more often, so why not do it when it's safe to do so? "
a) If they're walking away, and I do mean AWAY, I'd suggest letting it go. As I let racial insults go if the person is leaving me or assumes that I did not hear it. If they are challenging you, that's different. Sometimes, I think you need to let stuff go if it is not critical to your safety.
b) You cannot necessarily guarantee it is safe to challenge a "harrassing" man. He may not even remember who you are ten days or even ten minutes from now--particularly if he is walking AWAY. And what is this "need" to go after harassing men? If you think the harassment is part of an interview for an assault, that's one thing. But if the person is not yelling it directly at you, what gives? Sounds like that author is itching for violence and setting up the reader for unnecessary conflict.
I know having people bother you is uncomfortable, unpleasent and so on, but you have to learn what to let go and what to attack and how to handle it. I'm not suggesting that you roll over and die, I think that you need to think about what is really worth the agrevation of fisticuffs. "Real Fear" is different than being offended.
That's DE-esculation? Sounds like some dangerous advice.
"Those of you who've been verbally harassed will no doubt recognize this coward's tactic - a guy says something offensive about you... to his friend... as they're walking away. It's very passive-aggressive and it can work for you as well. This allows you to vent your verbal hostility without actually getting in a fight. Frankly, harasssing men need to be challenged more often, so why not do it when it's safe to do so? "
a) If they're walking away, and I do mean AWAY, I'd suggest letting it go. As I let racial insults go if the person is leaving me or assumes that I did not hear it. If they are challenging you, that's different. Sometimes, I think you need to let stuff go if it is not critical to your safety.
b) You cannot necessarily guarantee it is safe to challenge a "harrassing" man. He may not even remember who you are ten days or even ten minutes from now--particularly if he is walking AWAY. And what is this "need" to go after harassing men? If you think the harassment is part of an interview for an assault, that's one thing. But if the person is not yelling it directly at you, what gives? Sounds like that author is itching for violence and setting up the reader for unnecessary conflict.
I know having people bother you is uncomfortable, unpleasent and so on, but you have to learn what to let go and what to attack and how to handle it. I'm not suggesting that you roll over and die, I think that you need to think about what is really worth the agrevation of fisticuffs. "Real Fear" is different than being offended.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Interesting article
Hey Cecil,
I agree - for the most part. My usual policy is to let comments made after I've gone by roll off my back. She is in a rather unique situation and probably experiences more derisive comments in a day than many women.
She may not offer the best verbal self-defense info. She is obviously just speaking from her own experience. I doubt she is a expert.
You mention that if they're "challenging" you, things are different. Can you illustrate what you mean by a challenge?
For some folks, they feel challenged over being called a dyk* or a f**got. Is that a challenge?
Dana
I agree - for the most part. My usual policy is to let comments made after I've gone by roll off my back. She is in a rather unique situation and probably experiences more derisive comments in a day than many women.
She may not offer the best verbal self-defense info. She is obviously just speaking from her own experience. I doubt she is a expert.
You mention that if they're "challenging" you, things are different. Can you illustrate what you mean by a challenge?
For some folks, they feel challenged over being called a dyk* or a f**got. Is that a challenge?
Dana
Interesting article
If they are looking dead at you, eyes beeming, glearing, salivating, loudly calling you a fag or dyke to your face, of course that is a challenge. If someone says it in a way that makes you think they did not intend for you to hear it, that is not a challenge.
Of course, whichever way you hear it, you are going to be mad. And, you have to draw your lines in the sand. Basically, if what they say invokes "Real Fear" instead of just offense, then you need to respond to it appropriately. I have once (details withheld to protect the guilty) responded to something racial with appropriate displays of reason, then aggression at just the right time. I never had to actually come to blows, I had to make it clear that I would and be committed to doing so if necessary. And that---believe it or not---I do entirely owe to the Uechi forums here. Had I not read about "Real Fear", I would not have known the difference. Had I not read up on fight/flight, animal brains and knowing just how to use tools I already had, I'd have been lost.
I learned that martial arts "tricks", even if not combat applicable or only marginally applicable, are good for show and intimidating people on an animal level. Particularly people who prefer to function on an animal level. Think about that Karate Kid movie where Miyagi breaks the beer bottle (man I wish I could do that). Of course, bottles "don't hit back", but who would mess with a dude who can do that? If someone still persists in fighting after seeing something like that, then you know what you are dealing with.
Read the Debecker books and Peyton Quinn's books as Van and Lori repeatedly recommend. I'm swear by them---they are literally life savers. They give you good concepts that you can apply to your own lifestyle. They help you make use of the techinques and skills in ways that allow the rational brain to work in harmony with the frog brain, so that neither one gets in the other's way.
Also, get some Marc Animal MacYoung in your reading. Read that, THEN read or re-read the Zen type stuff and it'll become clearer. I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I am certainly glad that some things came through when I needed them, even if I didn't think I learned it at the time.
Of course, whichever way you hear it, you are going to be mad. And, you have to draw your lines in the sand. Basically, if what they say invokes "Real Fear" instead of just offense, then you need to respond to it appropriately. I have once (details withheld to protect the guilty) responded to something racial with appropriate displays of reason, then aggression at just the right time. I never had to actually come to blows, I had to make it clear that I would and be committed to doing so if necessary. And that---believe it or not---I do entirely owe to the Uechi forums here. Had I not read about "Real Fear", I would not have known the difference. Had I not read up on fight/flight, animal brains and knowing just how to use tools I already had, I'd have been lost.
I learned that martial arts "tricks", even if not combat applicable or only marginally applicable, are good for show and intimidating people on an animal level. Particularly people who prefer to function on an animal level. Think about that Karate Kid movie where Miyagi breaks the beer bottle (man I wish I could do that). Of course, bottles "don't hit back", but who would mess with a dude who can do that? If someone still persists in fighting after seeing something like that, then you know what you are dealing with.
Read the Debecker books and Peyton Quinn's books as Van and Lori repeatedly recommend. I'm swear by them---they are literally life savers. They give you good concepts that you can apply to your own lifestyle. They help you make use of the techinques and skills in ways that allow the rational brain to work in harmony with the frog brain, so that neither one gets in the other's way.
Also, get some Marc Animal MacYoung in your reading. Read that, THEN read or re-read the Zen type stuff and it'll become clearer. I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I am certainly glad that some things came through when I needed them, even if I didn't think I learned it at the time.
Interesting article
Re: the verbal self defense suggestions and de-escalating. I think there is a huge difference between men and women in this situation. For example, if I'm walking through spanish Harlem and I say "**** off" to some harrassers, that may be a challenge-- they're there to defend their turf from other males (whoa, three "there" sounding words in one sentence). But my inner-city-girlfriend uses verbal sef offense to show she's not an easy target. For example a few nights ago she was approached by a harrassing crowd of "ruffians" in the Bronx. A simple "**** off" and she was in the clear. She wasn't going to do ANYthing without a fight and that fearless statement and walking casually away said it all. At the same time she's not being particulary offensive ("**** off you [racial slur] before I kick your ass") and she's not pressing her luck by getting immedietly out of the situation.
I've mentioned her strategies before on the forums; I don't know if what she does is what the experts would do, all I know is she keeps on surviving in these big cities. That's mah babe!
I've mentioned her strategies before on the forums; I don't know if what she does is what the experts would do, all I know is she keeps on surviving in these big cities. That's mah babe!
Interesting article
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I think the writer is "expert" as anyone can be who has gone through her/his share of verbal and physical conflicts. We each develop a set of strategies that work for us. For example, while I may share some similar approaches with Cecil (who I believe is physically a big guy), there will be some differences because I am a small guy. I can't intimidate with size though I can off my share of vibes. I bet I am quicker to hit first too because it's a tried and true tactic for a smaller person.
david
The difference in reaction to a male or female saying, "f**K off!" may be very much a reflection of our socialization. One would expect a female to demurr. If she is capable of going against socialization and is using confronting language and body signals, a male may very well have to reconsider whether he wants to deal with a possible physical conflict and back off (if an easy conflict was on his mind.) However, once a physical conflict ensues, all bets are off.For example, if I'm walking through spanish Harlem and I say "**** off" to some harrassers, that may be a challenge-- they're there to defend their turf from other males (whoa, three "there" sounding words in one sentence). But my inner-city-girlfriend uses verbal sef offense to show she's not an easy target. For example a few nights ago she was approached by a harrassing crowd of "ruffians" in the Bronx. A simple "**** off" and she was in the clear. She wasn't going to do ANYthing without a fight and that fearless statement and walking casually away said it all.
I think the writer is "expert" as anyone can be who has gone through her/his share of verbal and physical conflicts. We each develop a set of strategies that work for us. For example, while I may share some similar approaches with Cecil (who I believe is physically a big guy), there will be some differences because I am a small guy. I can't intimidate with size though I can off my share of vibes. I bet I am quicker to hit first too because it's a tried and true tactic for a smaller person.
david
