Before things gets too grim...
Most of the sites I read say that if you resist at all you're looking a much better odds at survival than if you do not resist. Also - the press has a fascinating bias in how it reports women who DO defend themsevles. The headlines usually read "Man unsucsessful in attemped of woman in local park" instead of "Woman successfully defends herself against attempted rape in local park." Women are portayed as victims even when they've just fought off a perp. Shessh.
But the media like to create an environment of fear - better for ratings.
Anyway - here are some stories of inspiration, sucessful self-defense by women both empth handed and with weapons on hand.
I love the one with the 73 year old grandma taking the guy out with a baseball bat.
GO GRANDMA!!!!
http://www.jump.net/~judith/SDstoriesNews.html
Also a remind of how powerful a cell phone can be - one is mentioned in several stories.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 17, 2002).]
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Moderator: Available
Attacked in a Parking Lot
A number of years ago a friend of my sisters (a nurse) told us of a patient she helped treat. He had recieved serious injuries to his scrotum from a bite. The next evening he was charged with rape (apparently the victim waited until the next day to report) She was pulled off of a tree lined walking path between a school and residential area and was frozen in fear by his pearing knife. Well into the assault she bit and shook until he rolled away. Her reason for reporting was she thought the police would seek her out for the assault. Her jaw muscles were sore and she felt guilt for the serious injury she inflicted (I hope she got over that, Mike Tyson did ) If she didn`t fight back it was quite possible that he may have ended her life.
I have been told that a bite in any area with such sensitivity will cause the hands to open automatically as it shocks the entire nervous system..anyone know for certain?.
I have been told that a bite in any area with such sensitivity will cause the hands to open automatically as it shocks the entire nervous system..anyone know for certain?.
Attacked in a Parking Lot
I think that it's a pretty safe assumption that if you bite most men in the scrotum they're going to let go whatever the hell they have a hold of. Or is it just me?
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Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
What about disrupting his thoughts by offering a contra-indicated stimulus?
Going limp rather than stiffening up. Change his balance by adding weight. Create space in which to respond? Then bring the case into play?
Bark, kia, or shreik as you act.
I may be way off base, but I think a lot of attackers have a "prescripted" scenario in mind. Disrupt their fantasy.
Going limp rather than stiffening up. Change his balance by adding weight. Create space in which to respond? Then bring the case into play?
Bark, kia, or shreik as you act.
I may be way off base, but I think a lot of attackers have a "prescripted" scenario in mind. Disrupt their fantasy.
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Dana,
I somehow read over the part where you said that his left arm was choking. If that is the case everything would work in the opposite direction and I am now wondering that I have read the senerio again if she could slam the cardoor into his shinbone from the angle?
As far as the chokehold itself, if the attacker knows how to do one than the victem's chances being caught by suprise and all are kinda slim no matter what she does. The observation that I have made from working out with martial artist who don't know much about choking is they almost always don't attempt to create a base to keep the head still and rarely, use two way action, meaning pushing the neck into the choke while pulling the arm back in their choke attempts. The choke that is used in that senerio can be made more effective by tensing the bicept and forarm muscles which are on either side of the voicebox if I understood the senerio corrctly.
If she is able to pull the arm down and does so than the choker only has the option of resist that motion on a vertical plane or continue pulling the choke into her neck on a horizontial plane. It's not possible to resist on both planes, vertical and horizontal at the same time. If you turn into the neck like you suggested in hopes of turning around realize that you are actually pushing your neck into the choke thus making it tighter and providing an anvenue for two way action that a layman might have not known about. If however, you do the same movement you described while pulling the elbow down his forarm will no longer be snug against your neck which will compromise the effectivness of the base. If he has lifted you off the ground it isn't going to affect your abilty to lever his elbow down.
If you have tried your manuver though it is hard to argue with success but it would make me smile if you tired to lever down the elbow in your neck self-defense class no matter what manuver you try and see if it works for you.
By the way I had to read the senerio a few times before typing. It is really hard to think like a person you are not.
I somehow read over the part where you said that his left arm was choking. If that is the case everything would work in the opposite direction and I am now wondering that I have read the senerio again if she could slam the cardoor into his shinbone from the angle?
As far as the chokehold itself, if the attacker knows how to do one than the victem's chances being caught by suprise and all are kinda slim no matter what she does. The observation that I have made from working out with martial artist who don't know much about choking is they almost always don't attempt to create a base to keep the head still and rarely, use two way action, meaning pushing the neck into the choke while pulling the arm back in their choke attempts. The choke that is used in that senerio can be made more effective by tensing the bicept and forarm muscles which are on either side of the voicebox if I understood the senerio corrctly.
If she is able to pull the arm down and does so than the choker only has the option of resist that motion on a vertical plane or continue pulling the choke into her neck on a horizontial plane. It's not possible to resist on both planes, vertical and horizontal at the same time. If you turn into the neck like you suggested in hopes of turning around realize that you are actually pushing your neck into the choke thus making it tighter and providing an anvenue for two way action that a layman might have not known about. If however, you do the same movement you described while pulling the elbow down his forarm will no longer be snug against your neck which will compromise the effectivness of the base. If he has lifted you off the ground it isn't going to affect your abilty to lever his elbow down.
If you have tried your manuver though it is hard to argue with success but it would make me smile if you tired to lever down the elbow in your neck self-defense class no matter what manuver you try and see if it works for you.
By the way I had to read the senerio a few times before typing. It is really hard to think like a person you are not.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Attacked in a Parking Lot
So - I must explain - the turn into the attacker was always accompanied by a good strong pinch to the arm across my neck. Whether or not it hurt the guys holding me - it was enough of an abrupt distraction to let me twist my body into them. Of course this doesn't work at all if they've gotten all or most of you and your weight off the ground.
And turbotort2000 points out that is makes a big difference in how long you get to be awake if they know what they're doing - also as others pointed out - it depends on if the guy is trying to knock you out, or just psych you out.
As Van pointed out - the guy may be lying. So his goal might not be to get into the car - the goal might be just to assault the women right there. I wrote the scenario without the answers in mind because the are going to be so different. There are very few If = Then situations in actual self defense.
Dana
And turbotort2000 points out that is makes a big difference in how long you get to be awake if they know what they're doing - also as others pointed out - it depends on if the guy is trying to knock you out, or just psych you out.
As Van pointed out - the guy may be lying. So his goal might not be to get into the car - the goal might be just to assault the women right there. I wrote the scenario without the answers in mind because the are going to be so different. There are very few If = Then situations in actual self defense.
Dana
Attacked in a Parking Lot
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Isn't it amazing how many people missed the briefcase in the other hand?
A whack to the head from one of the hard sided cases, or even a soft case with a book or (hehe) a Titanium laptop (yes, I'm a Mac user) in it can be quite damaging, even striking overhead to the rear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The hard briefcase is pretty much unusual thing to see these days, even for the banking type. Most folks, male and female, use a soft cordura type. The handle is web nylon with a lot of give. Trying swing it sometimes, you'll find it not much effective unless you do a full arm swing which is not possible in this situation. He has you in a left hand choke. Likely his head is on the right side if not against the right side of your of you head. He'll see or feel that briefcase coming before it hits.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I may be way off base, but I think a lot of attackers have a "prescripted" scenario in mind. Disrupt their fantasy.
****************************************
By the way I had to read the senerio a few times before typing. It is really hard to think like a person you are not.
*****************************************
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Two good related statements here.
Is the attacker acting moving along the lines of his fantasy? Or has he spent time planning his attack and contingencies or may have had experience doing this before? Something that can make a difference.
When we project ourselves into the situation as the victim. Is it based on a fantasy of what we think we can do, or is based on experience, our training (hard and near realistic or not) and a good sense of who we are (emotionally/pyschologically)? These too make a difference.
Since we cannot control much about the attacker's attributes, we need to focus on our own -- develop and understand.
If you have had past experiences, think long and hard on them and how that may or may not apply in the scenario. For example, (short version) I had to evict a teen from our premises. He threw a punch that I barely saw which glanced off the side of my head and knocked my glasses off. Since I couldn't punch him (it's work related) and tackled him and took him down into a side choke hold (not the most effective). He was punching at my sides (I made sure to cover my groin whenever he went for that) and had no affect. I kept choking away. He tried pushing up at my jaw and then finally started to dig his thumb/finger into my eyeball (leaving scratches all around my eye). I didn't care... I continued choking until I felt him start to go limp. PERIOD. When the fight left him and only then did I ease off to let him have some air and blood. Now, if I project myself into the attacker's role, based on this experience and past training getting rear naked chokes on a partner... I wouldn't give myself, as victim, as much of a chance as against myself, as the attacker...
Okay, enough for me.
david
A whack to the head from one of the hard sided cases, or even a soft case with a book or (hehe) a Titanium laptop (yes, I'm a Mac user) in it can be quite damaging, even striking overhead to the rear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The hard briefcase is pretty much unusual thing to see these days, even for the banking type. Most folks, male and female, use a soft cordura type. The handle is web nylon with a lot of give. Trying swing it sometimes, you'll find it not much effective unless you do a full arm swing which is not possible in this situation. He has you in a left hand choke. Likely his head is on the right side if not against the right side of your of you head. He'll see or feel that briefcase coming before it hits.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I may be way off base, but I think a lot of attackers have a "prescripted" scenario in mind. Disrupt their fantasy.
****************************************
By the way I had to read the senerio a few times before typing. It is really hard to think like a person you are not.
*****************************************
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Two good related statements here.
Is the attacker acting moving along the lines of his fantasy? Or has he spent time planning his attack and contingencies or may have had experience doing this before? Something that can make a difference.When we project ourselves into the situation as the victim. Is it based on a fantasy of what we think we can do, or is based on experience, our training (hard and near realistic or not) and a good sense of who we are (emotionally/pyschologically)? These too make a difference.
Since we cannot control much about the attacker's attributes, we need to focus on our own -- develop and understand.
If you have had past experiences, think long and hard on them and how that may or may not apply in the scenario. For example, (short version) I had to evict a teen from our premises. He threw a punch that I barely saw which glanced off the side of my head and knocked my glasses off. Since I couldn't punch him (it's work related) and tackled him and took him down into a side choke hold (not the most effective). He was punching at my sides (I made sure to cover my groin whenever he went for that) and had no affect. I kept choking away. He tried pushing up at my jaw and then finally started to dig his thumb/finger into my eyeball (leaving scratches all around my eye). I didn't care... I continued choking until I felt him start to go limp. PERIOD. When the fight left him and only then did I ease off to let him have some air and blood. Now, if I project myself into the attacker's role, based on this experience and past training getting rear naked chokes on a partner... I wouldn't give myself, as victim, as much of a chance as against myself, as the attacker...
Okay, enough for me.
david
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Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Good points.
I think we do bring our own bias into the reading of the scenario.
When I read thru the first time I didn't percieve the arm around the neck as a real threat. One arm, to me is just to control the upper body and reinforce the threat of the knife. My bias: I am 6'3" 300lbs and it is hard to imagine myself as 5'5" 150lbs.
I think we do bring our own bias into the reading of the scenario.
When I read thru the first time I didn't percieve the arm around the neck as a real threat. One arm, to me is just to control the upper body and reinforce the threat of the knife. My bias: I am 6'3" 300lbs and it is hard to imagine myself as 5'5" 150lbs.
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
david
Don't knock success. If you set the choke up, and than applied it and it worked than it was the perfect technique for that moment. The fact that you had options in your conflict other than punching the kids lights out shows that your martial arts training has given you a return on your investment.
"I missed it the first time, but that is one heavy female"
Alan! Manners! Don't comment on a womans weight!
This is a cool thread. I am taking notes and learning.
Don't knock success. If you set the choke up, and than applied it and it worked than it was the perfect technique for that moment. The fact that you had options in your conflict other than punching the kids lights out shows that your martial arts training has given you a return on your investment.
"I missed it the first time, but that is one heavy female"
Alan! Manners! Don't comment on a womans weight!
This is a cool thread. I am taking notes and learning.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Believe it or not, 5'5" 150 is average woman size. The average dress size sold in America is a size 12. Those little things they put on TV just don't do we "real" women justice. 
I'll post a picture of me standing next to Mr. Nakamatsu. I'm 5'4" and...ahem, 140ish.
Most men guess my weight between 110 and 120 - so they're about 20 pounds off.
Lee-san,
(aside - if you're knees have gone bad - what about kyudo?)
I was working on your escape and there is a big difference in how effective that point is depending on the height differential between attacker and victim. If the attacker is about the same size then pushing up on the point works. If the attacker is much taller (say if Troll Under the Bridge attacked me) then the elbow of the choking arm is actually point pretty downward and is flat against the chest. This makes that point much harder to access. So then I'm back to a good hard pinch & twist of the soft flesh on the under side of the upper arm.
The other bad news about the scenario is that the woman in it has already frozen for about 5 seconds. In my experience the best way to get out of a choke is before it's on good and tight. But he's already spoken 2 sentences before the woman in the scenario is in a reacting place. Her odds are already lower.
I'll post a picture of me standing next to Mr. Nakamatsu. I'm 5'4" and...ahem, 140ish.
Most men guess my weight between 110 and 120 - so they're about 20 pounds off.
Lee-san,
(aside - if you're knees have gone bad - what about kyudo?)
I was working on your escape and there is a big difference in how effective that point is depending on the height differential between attacker and victim. If the attacker is about the same size then pushing up on the point works. If the attacker is much taller (say if Troll Under the Bridge attacked me) then the elbow of the choking arm is actually point pretty downward and is flat against the chest. This makes that point much harder to access. So then I'm back to a good hard pinch & twist of the soft flesh on the under side of the upper arm.
The other bad news about the scenario is that the woman in it has already frozen for about 5 seconds. In my experience the best way to get out of a choke is before it's on good and tight. But he's already spoken 2 sentences before the woman in the scenario is in a reacting place. Her odds are already lower.
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Dana,
Sorry, lost again. I know you are pinching the guy but where. Being 5 foot 4 and having studied judo for 4 years how could you possibly resist the urge to nail the attacker with sei-otoshi while in the dojo?
Sorry, lost again. I know you are pinching the guy but where. Being 5 foot 4 and having studied judo for 4 years how could you possibly resist the urge to nail the attacker with sei-otoshi while in the dojo?
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Attacked in a Parking Lot
sei-otoshi -- oh boy. been a while. is that different from tai=otoshi? That one was my favorite. It's still my favorite defense against a haymaker because it is the throw I trained the most. The only risk from doing a forward throw when someone has a really tight choke on you is that if they've fallen before and if they don't care and keep the choke tight, your throw will break your own neck. Or so my judo teachers said. We never really tested that one out.
Also if we're too close to the car, the car might stop the throw.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 18, 2002).]
Also if we're too close to the car, the car might stop the throw.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Do you want me to be more specific? I don't think I can be - the goal is to grab anywhere on this part of the arm and viciously seek to tear off some flesh. (ewwwwwww)I'm back to a good hard pinch & twist of the soft flesh on the under side of the upper arm.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 18, 2002).]
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Dana-Sensei,
Isn't it amazing how many people missed the briefcase in the other hand?
A whack to the head from one of the hard sided cases, or even a soft case with a book or (hehe) a Titanium laptop (yes, I'm a Mac user) in it can be quite damaging, even striking overhead to the rear.
Add a bite to the arm and you have one hurting perp. Foot stomp, if possible, to the instep, drop the case, shift the hips to the side, slip the left hand behind you and grab the perp's wedding tackle - HARD.
Head strike to the rear. He may dodge it, but it keeps him from doing other, nasty things.
Shift hips again, rip arm with keys, raise and elbow strike to the rear - HARD.
Left hand to his choke arm wrist, right thumb hits HARD up under and just foreward of the elbow, pushing up. This move is even better if you use your keys as the striking/pushing weapon. This is a Red Cross Lifesaving release. It does work on MUCH larger opponents.
RUN!!! SCREAM - not for the cops, but FIRE!!! People come out to see fires and call 911, people ignore cop calls as they "don't want to get ionvolved."
Great thread.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Sandan (retired, the knees finally gave out seriously)
[This message has been edited by LeeDarrow (edited March 18, 2002).]
Isn't it amazing how many people missed the briefcase in the other hand?
A whack to the head from one of the hard sided cases, or even a soft case with a book or (hehe) a Titanium laptop (yes, I'm a Mac user) in it can be quite damaging, even striking overhead to the rear.
Add a bite to the arm and you have one hurting perp. Foot stomp, if possible, to the instep, drop the case, shift the hips to the side, slip the left hand behind you and grab the perp's wedding tackle - HARD.
Head strike to the rear. He may dodge it, but it keeps him from doing other, nasty things.
Shift hips again, rip arm with keys, raise and elbow strike to the rear - HARD.
Left hand to his choke arm wrist, right thumb hits HARD up under and just foreward of the elbow, pushing up. This move is even better if you use your keys as the striking/pushing weapon. This is a Red Cross Lifesaving release. It does work on MUCH larger opponents.
RUN!!! SCREAM - not for the cops, but FIRE!!! People come out to see fires and call 911, people ignore cop calls as they "don't want to get ionvolved."
Great thread.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Sandan (retired, the knees finally gave out seriously)
[This message has been edited by LeeDarrow (edited March 18, 2002).]
Attacked in a Parking Lot
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by turbotort2000:
Dana,
Sorry, lost again. I know you are pinching the guy but where. Being 5 foot 4 and having studied judo for 4 years how could you possibly resist the urge to nail the attacker with sei-otoshi while in the dojo?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wouldn't that be Seoinage? One-Armed Shoulder throw, known to western wrestlers as the Flying Mare?
Dana-Sensei,
Most Kyudo basics are done from seiza as well. Still tough on the knees.
However, I'm looking into some other options, including prolotherapy for the knees. (trigger point injections and collagen therapy - my wife is getting this for her fibromyalgia and it's doing wonders). Thanks for the suggestion. Great idea on the pinch move, too.
turbotort2000-sama - the softsided briefcases, if holding a hard object, can work like a chain mace. Even a directly overhead from the right arm to the right side can cause a flinch and/or damage - I speak from experience on that one, from watching a woman on the street use it very effectively as I charged to her assistance. It dropped her attacker to his knees. No slam, just an observation.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Dana,
Sorry, lost again. I know you are pinching the guy but where. Being 5 foot 4 and having studied judo for 4 years how could you possibly resist the urge to nail the attacker with sei-otoshi while in the dojo?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wouldn't that be Seoinage? One-Armed Shoulder throw, known to western wrestlers as the Flying Mare?
Dana-Sensei,
Most Kyudo basics are done from seiza as well. Still tough on the knees.
However, I'm looking into some other options, including prolotherapy for the knees. (trigger point injections and collagen therapy - my wife is getting this for her fibromyalgia and it's doing wonders). Thanks for the suggestion. Great idea on the pinch move, too.turbotort2000-sama - the softsided briefcases, if holding a hard object, can work like a chain mace. Even a directly overhead from the right arm to the right side can cause a flinch and/or damage - I speak from experience on that one, from watching a woman on the street use it very effectively as I charged to her assistance. It dropped her attacker to his knees. No slam, just an observation.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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turbotort2000
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento Calfiornia USA
Attacked in a Parking Lot
Sei Otoshi is a shoulder throw while dropping to a prone position. You have to use your instep to keep your knees from banding the ground.
Dana I pinched myself while tightening my muscles under my arm between the biscept and tricept and found it relieved pressure when I took the tension out of my arm. It made it really hard to keep a tight forarm while doing that to myself and there was no suprise element there.
Lee can you walk us through the senerio from the beginning using the briefcase in the context described? Also, what does C.Ht mean after your name?
Dana I pinched myself while tightening my muscles under my arm between the biscept and tricept and found it relieved pressure when I took the tension out of my arm. It made it really hard to keep a tight forarm while doing that to myself and there was no suprise element there.
Lee can you walk us through the senerio from the beginning using the briefcase in the context described? Also, what does C.Ht mean after your name?
