"NOT A SINGLE WOMAN HAD AN AGGRESSIVE NATURE"
I think that they may not reveal that to their instructor, but I am sure that at least ONE of them was not wrapped too tight.
"Evidence? I just don't see girls engaging in the school yard bullying or shootings then boys are engaging in. What did I say about the homicide gap of 99-1? Rqual opportunity? 2 orders of magnitude different."
I guess I just went to freak schools in alternate universes where girls bullied girls and fought each other. I will give you the shootings, but I just say to that, give them time.
"WHO is having relationships with women that they're always worried about getting beat up or maniuplated? "
Battered men, that's who. Men who get emasculated to the point that they commit suicide.
"And they're just not on the same level of violence that men are. "
We must agree to disagree.
Women as Rapists
Moderator: Available
Women as Rapists
Certainly we can agree to disagree. We can also agree to disagree with crime statistics (nevermind world history) that unequivocably indicate that men are more violent than women, but that doesn't make any sense. If you want to say that women are, flat out, as violent as men, you have to have some kind of evidence. Otherwise, you're just slandering them.
If the women in my class didn't exhibit any aggressive behavior, we still have no evidence at all that they're taking karate to engage in senseless violence. They COULD have been aliens with a coat of human skin, but without any reason to suspect that, I am not worried about it, and not one woman in the 5 years gave me any reason to believe they were learning MA to gain power over others.
When I ask "WHO?" is getting the snot beat out of them by their wives, I was not looking for the name we give to this phenomenon (battered men). I was looking for ANY kind of statistic on prevalence or incidence or ANYTHING beside personal opinion and speculation to indicate this is a widespread problem, nevermind anything near the well-established social problem of male violence.
I agree that women CAN fight viciously in fights and have SEEN them do so and I know they batter their husbands as well. BUT seeing a vicious all female fight does not give us cause to make blanket statements about patterns of male and female violence. The predominance of men in violent acts has been well established historically. So much so that when we see a fight, we just call it a fight, and don't make note of the fact that it's male violence. When we see a "girl fight" it stands out because it IS the exception and then we sit back and say "wow women are violent huh?" because we've lost sight of the overall pattern.
Who's got FACTS to establish female violence in this country on par with male violence? FACTS?
If the women in my class didn't exhibit any aggressive behavior, we still have no evidence at all that they're taking karate to engage in senseless violence. They COULD have been aliens with a coat of human skin, but without any reason to suspect that, I am not worried about it, and not one woman in the 5 years gave me any reason to believe they were learning MA to gain power over others.
When I ask "WHO?" is getting the snot beat out of them by their wives, I was not looking for the name we give to this phenomenon (battered men). I was looking for ANY kind of statistic on prevalence or incidence or ANYTHING beside personal opinion and speculation to indicate this is a widespread problem, nevermind anything near the well-established social problem of male violence.
I agree that women CAN fight viciously in fights and have SEEN them do so and I know they batter their husbands as well. BUT seeing a vicious all female fight does not give us cause to make blanket statements about patterns of male and female violence. The predominance of men in violent acts has been well established historically. So much so that when we see a fight, we just call it a fight, and don't make note of the fact that it's male violence. When we see a "girl fight" it stands out because it IS the exception and then we sit back and say "wow women are violent huh?" because we've lost sight of the overall pattern.
Who's got FACTS to establish female violence in this country on par with male violence? FACTS?
Women as Rapists
"Who's got FACTS to establish female violence in this country on par with male violence? FACTS?"
I'd like to see a survey on this: How many men who batter their wives were also viciously beaten by their mothers as children? I've heard some women who think that they need to beat on their male children in order to make a man out of them, or because "He's getting big, so I have to control him somehow". When I tell them that after I got to be bigger than my mother, I had RESPECT for her, that's why she controlled me, they just look at me like they don't know what I'm talking about.
As far as "FACTS" go, facts are often skewed to meet cultural expectations. As a culture, we still expect women to be damsels. Even after they drown their children in the bathtub. Even if a woman kicks you in the groin in the dojo, if you fight her like she's a guy of the same size, someone in there will have their chilvary program activated and will disapprove. Which would push our buttons more: a sensei beating on a white belt male a little too much, or a sensei beating on a black belt female a little too much. Be honest. The female could have just tried a cheap dangerous shot, yet our culture tells us to protect the women at all cost.
My thing with female violence is this: if we can't hold women accountable for being wrong at times, then we can't hold them accountable for being RIGHT either. They're only human.
I'd like to see a survey on this: How many men who batter their wives were also viciously beaten by their mothers as children? I've heard some women who think that they need to beat on their male children in order to make a man out of them, or because "He's getting big, so I have to control him somehow". When I tell them that after I got to be bigger than my mother, I had RESPECT for her, that's why she controlled me, they just look at me like they don't know what I'm talking about.
As far as "FACTS" go, facts are often skewed to meet cultural expectations. As a culture, we still expect women to be damsels. Even after they drown their children in the bathtub. Even if a woman kicks you in the groin in the dojo, if you fight her like she's a guy of the same size, someone in there will have their chilvary program activated and will disapprove. Which would push our buttons more: a sensei beating on a white belt male a little too much, or a sensei beating on a black belt female a little too much. Be honest. The female could have just tried a cheap dangerous shot, yet our culture tells us to protect the women at all cost.
My thing with female violence is this: if we can't hold women accountable for being wrong at times, then we can't hold them accountable for being RIGHT either. They're only human.
Women as Rapists
"BUT seeing a vicious all female fight does not give us cause to make blanket statements about patterns of male and female violence. "
Seeing a vicious female fight also gets my blood warm and heart rate going. I really need to work on that. That does not seem normal (LOL).
Seeing a vicious female fight also gets my blood warm and heart rate going. I really need to work on that. That does not seem normal (LOL).
-
Allen M.
Women as Rapists
Cecil,
The internet is full of "solid" documentation concerning the topics discussed above, both for and against both men and women, some of the studies even refer to government studies.
It's a sick world out there. In terms of spousal/children abuse, or any kind of abuse, the killings, the beatings, and the rapes are caused by what? What's the root of it all? What are the causes?
Solutions to problems are not found by finger-pointing at the opposite gender.
So what could be construed as concrete solutions?
Van? Lori? Cecil? others?
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
The internet is full of "solid" documentation concerning the topics discussed above, both for and against both men and women, some of the studies even refer to government studies.
It's a sick world out there. In terms of spousal/children abuse, or any kind of abuse, the killings, the beatings, and the rapes are caused by what? What's the root of it all? What are the causes?
Solutions to problems are not found by finger-pointing at the opposite gender.
So what could be construed as concrete solutions?
Van? Lori? Cecil? others?
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Women as Rapists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
I promised to stay away, but in brief, emotional damage is important and in LARGE part it is derived from 1) extent of physical damage 2) extent of fear and helplessness in relationship which is quite dependent on size strength and ability to control, yet another reason why women suffer disproportionately from domestic abuse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry to disagree on point one, Ian. The extent of damage is more dependent on the amount of emotional control perceived by the victim which ALLOWS the physical damage in the first place.
Your second point about physical intimidation is right on, but the overriding problem in chronic abuse cases is the forced dependency that most chronic abusers drive into the minds of their victims.
Having been the victim of such abuse myself, I can attest that even a reasonably well-educated person can fall into this trap.
Many abusers never lay a hand on their victims, but the abuse is just as damaging to the victim - sometimes moreso because of the literal changes in internal ideation caused by the dependency that they are often gradually led into. Such dependency can lead to denial of the abuse, faliure to recognize the abuse for what it really is and even firece defense of the perp by the victim.
In most cases of chronic abuse, it is the dependency issue that is the primary obstacle to overcome. The dependency the victim feels is also linked to an overriding fear of being left with "nothing" and the fear of the emotional devastation that will occur should they break with their abuser. Not to mention the fear of the abuser finding them and exacting an even more stern revenge.
I speak from personal experience as a victim in such a case and, as part of my therapy, I did some research which pointed out much of what I have just said.
Regardless of the situation, abuse, from ANYONE, is wrong - I know we agree on that. But how many times have you heard, "Why don't you just leave him?" followed by "I can't. He's all I've got!"
That's the real issue in getting away from a chronic abuser, IMPO.
With Respect,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
I promised to stay away, but in brief, emotional damage is important and in LARGE part it is derived from 1) extent of physical damage 2) extent of fear and helplessness in relationship which is quite dependent on size strength and ability to control, yet another reason why women suffer disproportionately from domestic abuse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry to disagree on point one, Ian. The extent of damage is more dependent on the amount of emotional control perceived by the victim which ALLOWS the physical damage in the first place.
Your second point about physical intimidation is right on, but the overriding problem in chronic abuse cases is the forced dependency that most chronic abusers drive into the minds of their victims.
Having been the victim of such abuse myself, I can attest that even a reasonably well-educated person can fall into this trap.
Many abusers never lay a hand on their victims, but the abuse is just as damaging to the victim - sometimes moreso because of the literal changes in internal ideation caused by the dependency that they are often gradually led into. Such dependency can lead to denial of the abuse, faliure to recognize the abuse for what it really is and even firece defense of the perp by the victim.
In most cases of chronic abuse, it is the dependency issue that is the primary obstacle to overcome. The dependency the victim feels is also linked to an overriding fear of being left with "nothing" and the fear of the emotional devastation that will occur should they break with their abuser. Not to mention the fear of the abuser finding them and exacting an even more stern revenge.
I speak from personal experience as a victim in such a case and, as part of my therapy, I did some research which pointed out much of what I have just said.
Regardless of the situation, abuse, from ANYONE, is wrong - I know we agree on that. But how many times have you heard, "Why don't you just leave him?" followed by "I can't. He's all I've got!"
That's the real issue in getting away from a chronic abuser, IMPO.
With Respect,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Women as Rapists
Thanks for your post Mr. Darrow, it's not easy to post as the abused. I don't think we disagree about the importance of emotional control in the damage abuse causes.
"Seeing a vicious female fight also gets my blood warm and heart rate going. I really need to work on that. That does not seem normal (LOL)."
Could this be made a little more women sensitive for the women's forum, perhaps??
"Seeing a vicious female fight also gets my blood warm and heart rate going. I really need to work on that. That does not seem normal (LOL)."
Could this be made a little more women sensitive for the women's forum, perhaps??
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Women as Rapists
Cecil - please remeber that things don't always come across the right way in print. While you may have meant your comment to be light-hearted, without being able to see you make it - it can be perceived as crass and misogynistic -- which definitely seems out of place on this forum and particularly in this discussion. I invite you to consider removing the second half of your statement.
moving on...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In Brief: Towards an Understanding of Women's Use of Non-Lethal Violence in Intimate Heterosexual Relationships
Recently, the domestic violence movement has been confronted with an extraordinary twist of circumstances. Advocates and practitioners around the country have begun to notice an increase in dual arrests of men and women as well as an increase in only women being arrested and charged with domestic violence. Detractors of the anti-violence against women movement have hailed these arrests as proofs of gender neutrality of family violence. However, research on women's use of violence against intimate male partners leads to different conclusions:
* The majority of women who use violence against their male partners are battered themselves;
* The assessment of men's and women's violence towards their intimate partners as fundamentally similar arises from conflation of the terms 'battering' and 'violence' as well as decontextualization of violent actions;
* Women's violent behavior towards their heterosexual partners is substantially different from men's on historical, cultural, systemic, situational, and individual grounds;
* Women's abusive behaviors towards their heterosexual partners emerge from various motivations including self defense, retaliation, reclaiming self respect, and controlling of abusers' violence; and
* Women from different cultural backgrounds may view violence differently. Many cultures may not consider physical aggression to be much of a taboo for women. Cross-cultural perspectives must be taken seriously in a pluralistic society such as the U.S. A limited approach to women's violence may lead to myopic policy development and inappropriate criminal justice responses towards diverse communities.
* Women's use of force against their male partners needs to be recognized by their contexts that include socio-cultural backgrounds, family and community networks, systems and institutions of intervention, motivations and intentions, immediate situations, as well as consequences;
* By equating women's violence to men's, the criminal justice and other intervening systems evaluate women's behavior by standards established for men's violence. Such an assessment is not only invalid, it leads to inappropriate and unjust responses;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
from the article I posted before
Now my personal opinion -
I think the numbers of women who join martial arts for the express purpose of learning methods to use to initiate acts of violence on innocent individuals without provocation is extremely low. By the same token I think the percentage of men doing the same thing is equally low.
Most people who want to learn how to hurt people don't need a martial arts school to do so. They practice on innocent, weak , easy to harm victims.
There are going to be exceptions.
There is a difference between physical and emotional abuse. Both are terrible, and they often go hand in hand, but each is unique. Many times physical abuse grows out of emotional abuse.
I think what we could constructively focus on is identifying individuals and couples within our various circles of friends that we may feel to be at risk for these kinds of behaviors. Reach out to them instead of isolating them. It is very rare that abuse occurs in happy relationships with good community.
Perhaps someone can post identifying signals an outside observer might notice of an individual who may be engaged in physical or emotional abusive behavior.
And then if we do identify such a person, what steps we might take to help them out.
Thanks,
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 08, 2002).]
moving on...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In Brief: Towards an Understanding of Women's Use of Non-Lethal Violence in Intimate Heterosexual Relationships
Recently, the domestic violence movement has been confronted with an extraordinary twist of circumstances. Advocates and practitioners around the country have begun to notice an increase in dual arrests of men and women as well as an increase in only women being arrested and charged with domestic violence. Detractors of the anti-violence against women movement have hailed these arrests as proofs of gender neutrality of family violence. However, research on women's use of violence against intimate male partners leads to different conclusions:
* The majority of women who use violence against their male partners are battered themselves;
* The assessment of men's and women's violence towards their intimate partners as fundamentally similar arises from conflation of the terms 'battering' and 'violence' as well as decontextualization of violent actions;
* Women's violent behavior towards their heterosexual partners is substantially different from men's on historical, cultural, systemic, situational, and individual grounds;
* Women's abusive behaviors towards their heterosexual partners emerge from various motivations including self defense, retaliation, reclaiming self respect, and controlling of abusers' violence; and
* Women from different cultural backgrounds may view violence differently. Many cultures may not consider physical aggression to be much of a taboo for women. Cross-cultural perspectives must be taken seriously in a pluralistic society such as the U.S. A limited approach to women's violence may lead to myopic policy development and inappropriate criminal justice responses towards diverse communities.
* Women's use of force against their male partners needs to be recognized by their contexts that include socio-cultural backgrounds, family and community networks, systems and institutions of intervention, motivations and intentions, immediate situations, as well as consequences;
* By equating women's violence to men's, the criminal justice and other intervening systems evaluate women's behavior by standards established for men's violence. Such an assessment is not only invalid, it leads to inappropriate and unjust responses;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
from the article I posted before
Now my personal opinion -
I think the numbers of women who join martial arts for the express purpose of learning methods to use to initiate acts of violence on innocent individuals without provocation is extremely low. By the same token I think the percentage of men doing the same thing is equally low.
Most people who want to learn how to hurt people don't need a martial arts school to do so. They practice on innocent, weak , easy to harm victims.
There are going to be exceptions.
There is a difference between physical and emotional abuse. Both are terrible, and they often go hand in hand, but each is unique. Many times physical abuse grows out of emotional abuse.
I think what we could constructively focus on is identifying individuals and couples within our various circles of friends that we may feel to be at risk for these kinds of behaviors. Reach out to them instead of isolating them. It is very rare that abuse occurs in happy relationships with good community.
Perhaps someone can post identifying signals an outside observer might notice of an individual who may be engaged in physical or emotional abusive behavior.
And then if we do identify such a person, what steps we might take to help them out.
Thanks,
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 08, 2002).]
Women as Rapists
Here are a couple of red flag instances I ran into:
1) a 17 yr old woman who has yet to appear for any form of prenatal care arrives at the hospital to deliver. Her "boyfriend" is 54, and he's immediately antagonistic with staff. He tells them she's having this baby in 4 hours of he's taking her home (to rural virginia). He repeats this threat everytime someone tries to talk to or examine her (watch it, or I'll take her right out of here!). He tells the anesthesiologist to get lost in a threatening way, saying she doesn't need any pain medications. After the birth they spend the night in the hospital. The next morning when the 3rd yr medical student (me, at the time) asks if she'd like to set up any followup care before leaving (for her and or baby) the BF gets up from his chair shaking his fist and yelling and makes a bluff charge. The student braces to defend himself, then leaves the room backwards, documents the incident in the medical record, and calls the resident, social work, and security. After the BF repeats the threat to take mother and baby home, he is firmly told in the presence of security that the baby stays 24 hrs and he is welcome to leave any time he likes, but his threats are going to stop or he will be removed. He is also told the mother is speaking to social work ALONE before she leaves the hospital.
I have no doubt they were in an emotionally abusive relationship and I'm virtually certain physical or sexual abuse may have been involved as well. But with such a tiny interval to help, (I wasn';t privvy to the SW discussion) I doubted the woman would have both the ability to describe the problem and uproot her life all in the matter of hours. Sometimes all you can do is give some pointers on surviving abuse and provide some contacts that can help when the need arises. The whole time I was terrified that by raising the issue we might provoke an assault or at least a reprisal from the boyfriend, but we didn't know what else to do. Red flags: intrusive, aggressive, "protective," manipulative, defensive, inappropriate emotional response to the event (his KID was born!), controlling, limiting access to the patient.
2) Same rotation: woman comes in for colposcopy (vinegar applied to cervix under magnifying glass to identify areas of possibly pre-malignant tissue, done to follow up abnormal pap smear. Not only does her boyfriend come to the appointment (weird) he talks his way into the procedure itself (WEIRD) and then assumes a role of approving each step (you have to ask me before doing anything, are you sure that's safe / comfortable, *I* don't want you putting that on her cervix, she doesn't need that, etc). We didn't have a chance to talk to her alone because he'd say they had no secrets and do it in a way that made it hard for her to disagree--so we just noted our concern in the chart and hoped we'd get a chance next time. I was observing, but if it happened again I'd interrupt his cycle of control the way I get an adolescent alone for part of an interview (we know you don't have any secrets, but it's standard to do the examine with just the patient, and then you can come back in to discuss everything later.) Same red flags, just not as dramatic. The tension, the flavor of control, and intrusive interest into his partner's business was palpable.
Unfortunately, I don't think either of these guys would have been helpable. I think they'd react angrily and defensively to the slightest suggestion that they need to chill out.
This may be more helpful: the antisocial personality (characterized by crime and lack of empathy, using people however it helps them without a concern for consequences) tends to display a few warning behaviors in youth:
bedwetting
fire setting
cruelty to animals.
As my psych professor put it, se a kid peeing on a burning dog, worry about a potential abuser. Therapy that asks them to write/think about what it must fel like to be on the receiving end of their behavior is sometimes helpful.
1) a 17 yr old woman who has yet to appear for any form of prenatal care arrives at the hospital to deliver. Her "boyfriend" is 54, and he's immediately antagonistic with staff. He tells them she's having this baby in 4 hours of he's taking her home (to rural virginia). He repeats this threat everytime someone tries to talk to or examine her (watch it, or I'll take her right out of here!). He tells the anesthesiologist to get lost in a threatening way, saying she doesn't need any pain medications. After the birth they spend the night in the hospital. The next morning when the 3rd yr medical student (me, at the time) asks if she'd like to set up any followup care before leaving (for her and or baby) the BF gets up from his chair shaking his fist and yelling and makes a bluff charge. The student braces to defend himself, then leaves the room backwards, documents the incident in the medical record, and calls the resident, social work, and security. After the BF repeats the threat to take mother and baby home, he is firmly told in the presence of security that the baby stays 24 hrs and he is welcome to leave any time he likes, but his threats are going to stop or he will be removed. He is also told the mother is speaking to social work ALONE before she leaves the hospital.
I have no doubt they were in an emotionally abusive relationship and I'm virtually certain physical or sexual abuse may have been involved as well. But with such a tiny interval to help, (I wasn';t privvy to the SW discussion) I doubted the woman would have both the ability to describe the problem and uproot her life all in the matter of hours. Sometimes all you can do is give some pointers on surviving abuse and provide some contacts that can help when the need arises. The whole time I was terrified that by raising the issue we might provoke an assault or at least a reprisal from the boyfriend, but we didn't know what else to do. Red flags: intrusive, aggressive, "protective," manipulative, defensive, inappropriate emotional response to the event (his KID was born!), controlling, limiting access to the patient.
2) Same rotation: woman comes in for colposcopy (vinegar applied to cervix under magnifying glass to identify areas of possibly pre-malignant tissue, done to follow up abnormal pap smear. Not only does her boyfriend come to the appointment (weird) he talks his way into the procedure itself (WEIRD) and then assumes a role of approving each step (you have to ask me before doing anything, are you sure that's safe / comfortable, *I* don't want you putting that on her cervix, she doesn't need that, etc). We didn't have a chance to talk to her alone because he'd say they had no secrets and do it in a way that made it hard for her to disagree--so we just noted our concern in the chart and hoped we'd get a chance next time. I was observing, but if it happened again I'd interrupt his cycle of control the way I get an adolescent alone for part of an interview (we know you don't have any secrets, but it's standard to do the examine with just the patient, and then you can come back in to discuss everything later.) Same red flags, just not as dramatic. The tension, the flavor of control, and intrusive interest into his partner's business was palpable.
Unfortunately, I don't think either of these guys would have been helpable. I think they'd react angrily and defensively to the slightest suggestion that they need to chill out.
This may be more helpful: the antisocial personality (characterized by crime and lack of empathy, using people however it helps them without a concern for consequences) tends to display a few warning behaviors in youth:
bedwetting
fire setting
cruelty to animals.
As my psych professor put it, se a kid peeing on a burning dog, worry about a potential abuser. Therapy that asks them to write/think about what it must fel like to be on the receiving end of their behavior is sometimes helpful.
-
Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Women as Rapists
I lurk here frequently. Lots of good stuff, not much to add... But let's get real here people. In general, men have a physical advantage over women. Society (the legal System) is intolerant of men using this advantage even if it is to defend themselves. This is the way it is.
In general, women tend to have an emotional and psychological advantage over men. There is no discussion of it or the abuse that is promulgated. As a teenage boy trying to figure out teenage girls, my mother spent no small amount of time explaining the dynamics of this relationship. Women are naturals at psyops. Their manipulative ability can be used for good or ill. "Behind every good man is a good woman" Though the culture which supports that statement is changing, it adds dimension to my point. A woman can get into a man's head to the point that he cannot or will not make a decision without her. The level of abuse stemming from this fact is a quiet little secret in today's world. There are countless sons, husbands, boyfriends and fathers who would attest to it if they were given permission. The "temper tantrum" button and the "chill switch" are VERY powerful. Abuse can and does happen. It *****. Life, under those conditions, *****, believe me. Why does he put up with it? What can he do? Divorce is nasty, expensive, and the grounds are nebulous. Good days and bad days; live for the good days. For years and years. Good man. Good father, husband and provider...not good enough though... 'till death do us part.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
In general, women tend to have an emotional and psychological advantage over men. There is no discussion of it or the abuse that is promulgated. As a teenage boy trying to figure out teenage girls, my mother spent no small amount of time explaining the dynamics of this relationship. Women are naturals at psyops. Their manipulative ability can be used for good or ill. "Behind every good man is a good woman" Though the culture which supports that statement is changing, it adds dimension to my point. A woman can get into a man's head to the point that he cannot or will not make a decision without her. The level of abuse stemming from this fact is a quiet little secret in today's world. There are countless sons, husbands, boyfriends and fathers who would attest to it if they were given permission. The "temper tantrum" button and the "chill switch" are VERY powerful. Abuse can and does happen. It *****. Life, under those conditions, *****, believe me. Why does he put up with it? What can he do? Divorce is nasty, expensive, and the grounds are nebulous. Good days and bad days; live for the good days. For years and years. Good man. Good father, husband and provider...not good enough though... 'till death do us part.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
-
Allen M.
Women as Rapists
Women aren't aggreessive? Hey Cecil. Ever see two women go at it in a bar? Holy Shiit! That's some kind of fighting -- killer instincts surface that are far beyond men bar fights, as a rule, that I've seen.
And the poor dude who tries to break them up runs the risk of getting his face torn to shreds.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
And the poor dude who tries to break them up runs the risk of getting his face torn to shreds.
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Women as Rapists
"Red flags: intrusive, aggressive, "protective," manipulative,
defensive, inappropriate emotional response to the event
(his KID was born!), controlling, limiting access to the
patient."
I like these red flags. This is something I can use as a
checklist.
"In general, men have a physical advantage over women. '\
Society (the legal System) is intolerant of men using
this advantage even if it is to defend themselves.
This is the way it is. In general, women tend to have
an emotional and psychological advantage over men."
I agree. It's too bad that the bad people of each
gender can't stick with each other and leave
everyone else alone.
"The "temper tantrum" button and the "chill switch"
are VERY powerful. Abuse can and does happen. It
*****. Life, under those conditions, *****, believe
me. Why does he put up with it? What can he do?
Divorce is nasty, expensive, and the grounds are
nebulous. Good days and bad days; live for the
good days. For years and years. Good man. Good
father, husband and provider...not good enough
though... 'till death do us part"
Add labeling and tacit/implied judgement in there
as well. Most men with any ounce of decency inherently
care what women think of them. Even if it is not
in order to "impress", he at least wants to be seen
in a positive light. Could a Zen mindset help a man
deal with this type of manipulation? Or, would he
have a hard time attaining Zen under these conditions.
defensive, inappropriate emotional response to the event
(his KID was born!), controlling, limiting access to the
patient."
I like these red flags. This is something I can use as a
checklist.
"In general, men have a physical advantage over women. '\
Society (the legal System) is intolerant of men using
this advantage even if it is to defend themselves.
This is the way it is. In general, women tend to have
an emotional and psychological advantage over men."
I agree. It's too bad that the bad people of each
gender can't stick with each other and leave
everyone else alone.
"The "temper tantrum" button and the "chill switch"
are VERY powerful. Abuse can and does happen. It
*****. Life, under those conditions, *****, believe
me. Why does he put up with it? What can he do?
Divorce is nasty, expensive, and the grounds are
nebulous. Good days and bad days; live for the
good days. For years and years. Good man. Good
father, husband and provider...not good enough
though... 'till death do us part"
Add labeling and tacit/implied judgement in there
as well. Most men with any ounce of decency inherently
care what women think of them. Even if it is not
in order to "impress", he at least wants to be seen
in a positive light. Could a Zen mindset help a man
deal with this type of manipulation? Or, would he
have a hard time attaining Zen under these conditions.
-
Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Women as Rapists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Could a Zen mindset help a man
deal with this type of manipulation? Or, would he
have a hard time attaining Zen under these conditions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought I understood the zen mindset before I was married or a father. It is an understatement to say I had NO CLUE. The monk who sequesters himself in a mountain cave has it easy. The zen aspect of my MA experience over the years has definitely been a positive influence on my ability to be a better husband and father. I don't think attaining zen is easy under any conditions, but some conditions test you a bit more.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Most men with any ounce of decency inherently
care what women think of them. Even if it is not
in order to "impress", he at least wants to be seen
in a positive light.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES, YES, YES!!! and decent members of both genders can make this an incredibly positive thing. It's just that sometimes it is not. There are vulnerabilities on both sides and some that never get talked about.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Could a Zen mindset help a man
deal with this type of manipulation? Or, would he
have a hard time attaining Zen under these conditions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought I understood the zen mindset before I was married or a father. It is an understatement to say I had NO CLUE. The monk who sequesters himself in a mountain cave has it easy. The zen aspect of my MA experience over the years has definitely been a positive influence on my ability to be a better husband and father. I don't think attaining zen is easy under any conditions, but some conditions test you a bit more.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Most men with any ounce of decency inherently
care what women think of them. Even if it is not
in order to "impress", he at least wants to be seen
in a positive light.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES, YES, YES!!! and decent members of both genders can make this an incredibly positive thing. It's just that sometimes it is not. There are vulnerabilities on both sides and some that never get talked about.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Women as Rapists
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ted Dinwiddie:
YES, YES, YES!!! and decent members of both genders can make this an incredibly positive thing. It's just that sometimes it is not. There are vulnerabilities on both sides and some that never get talked about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The need to be seen as a good and decent member of the human race, by either gender is a good and laudable thing - unless it is used against that person by an abuser.
One of the key manipulations an abuser will use is the need to be a "good boy" or "good girl" (and I use that last term as the abuser sees it, not as a sexist statement) to foster compliance in their victim.
One thing victims of abuse in virtually every case I have run across, both in my clinical practice and in the street, is a lack of assertiveness toward their abuser.
For whatever reason, fear of physical reprisal, fear of emotional withdrawal, fear of loss of children, the abuser uses this "be nice" driver behavior in the victim to foster their control over the victim.
In recovering from or in breaking with an abuser, overcoming the "be nice" driver and asserting one's own rights is an essential part of the process.
Sometimes, in abuse situations, an abuser goes too far and the victim will finally break down and counterattack. Most often this simply leads to a worse battering or death for the victim. On occasion, however, it leads to the abuser taking serious, sometimes fatal, damage.
It is this scenario that abuse counselling teams do their best to keep from happening while trying their level best to stop the cycle of abuse itself.
I hope that this adds to some of the knowledge and is useful to the members of this forum (that's "be nice" driver behavior in action, gang).
Sincerely,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
YES, YES, YES!!! and decent members of both genders can make this an incredibly positive thing. It's just that sometimes it is not. There are vulnerabilities on both sides and some that never get talked about.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The need to be seen as a good and decent member of the human race, by either gender is a good and laudable thing - unless it is used against that person by an abuser.
One of the key manipulations an abuser will use is the need to be a "good boy" or "good girl" (and I use that last term as the abuser sees it, not as a sexist statement) to foster compliance in their victim.
One thing victims of abuse in virtually every case I have run across, both in my clinical practice and in the street, is a lack of assertiveness toward their abuser.
For whatever reason, fear of physical reprisal, fear of emotional withdrawal, fear of loss of children, the abuser uses this "be nice" driver behavior in the victim to foster their control over the victim.
In recovering from or in breaking with an abuser, overcoming the "be nice" driver and asserting one's own rights is an essential part of the process.
Sometimes, in abuse situations, an abuser goes too far and the victim will finally break down and counterattack. Most often this simply leads to a worse battering or death for the victim. On occasion, however, it leads to the abuser taking serious, sometimes fatal, damage.
It is this scenario that abuse counselling teams do their best to keep from happening while trying their level best to stop the cycle of abuse itself.
I hope that this adds to some of the knowledge and is useful to the members of this forum (that's "be nice" driver behavior in action, gang).
Sincerely,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Women as Rapists
"One of the key manipulations an abuser will use is the need to be a "good boy" or "good girl" (and I use that last term as the abuser sees it, not as a sexist statement) to foster compliance in their victim."
Ok, could you please explain how that is a or could be construed to be a sexist statement? Can "good boy" be considered as sexist?
I am all for being PC, but I think your context makes it fairly clear how you mean the terms to be used.
Ok, could you please explain how that is a or could be construed to be a sexist statement? Can "good boy" be considered as sexist?
I am all for being PC, but I think your context makes it fairly clear how you mean the terms to be used.
