Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
"A dog breeder would be considered insane if they separated puppies by sex, allowing only male puppies to play and learn adult survival techniques as they tumbled around "hunting" a ball. We would consider it absurd to train the females not to growl, roll around, get dirty, or fight back if attacked. Why do humans, for the most part, continue to raise their females to ignore their innate survival instincts? If someone always intervenes to help the girl, how is she going to handle a date who gets out of hand when sheÕs a teen? What if little girls were raised as equally as female puppies?" Ellen Snortland, Beauty Bites Beast
Beauty Bites Beast: Awakening the Warrior Within Women and Girls
by Ellen Snortland (Trilogy Books, 1998)
ISBN: 0971144702
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Moderator: Available
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Because we are not beasts.
"If someone always intervenes to help the girl, how is she going to handle a date who gets out of hand when sheÕs a teen?"
If someone never does, then she may see herself as worthless. The boys may think their sisters are not worth defending. Or cherishing. Or respecting.
" What if little girls were raised as equally as female puppies?" T
Yes, what if we treated boys and girls like dogs. Doesn't the world have enough of the pack mentality?
Man, people are a trip. You don't see fish looking at us and going "Oh, what if we were more like humans? Would we be better fish?"
"If someone always intervenes to help the girl, how is she going to handle a date who gets out of hand when sheÕs a teen?"
If someone never does, then she may see herself as worthless. The boys may think their sisters are not worth defending. Or cherishing. Or respecting.
" What if little girls were raised as equally as female puppies?" T
Yes, what if we treated boys and girls like dogs. Doesn't the world have enough of the pack mentality?
Man, people are a trip. You don't see fish looking at us and going "Oh, what if we were more like humans? Would we be better fish?"
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
The point of the analogy is not to suggest that we should be treated like dogs.
However humans are, for lack of a better work, beasts. We are animals - like it or not.
And as is proven by our over-crowded prisons - our "civilized" society can, on occasion, be a highly uncivilized and beastly place to survive.
The point of the analogy is that our standard for socializing men and women are very different in this country. Many, many women today are still taught: not to talk back, not to hit back, not to defend their personal boundries to the point that date rape is on the rise, depression is on the rise and domestic violence is on the rise.
Go back and read Darren Lauer's post on date rape. 15% of the college men self-reported that they had raped a girl on a date. 15%
<bf>15%</f>
One in seven college aged men ADMITTED to it.
So people wonder why I think girls should be allowed to wrestle and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder why the girls that play contact sports do better in business?
People wonder why women should be bothered to participate in some rough and tumble play growing up so the first time they need to use their body to defend their body isn't the first time they're being raped???
"The boys may think their sisters are not worth defending"
They seem to already have that problem.
Training in martial arts is a way for women to close this gap in experience. To learn to take a shot and give a shot and get knocked down and get back up.
Training in martial arts can give the women the experiences they need to be able to fight back.
Van or somebody posted that if the brain has no prior experiences to reference it will freeze up. The brain will be unable to offer a solution. Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about a real attack if it should ever come.
Do girls need to play like puppies?
Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world.
However humans are, for lack of a better work, beasts. We are animals - like it or not.
And as is proven by our over-crowded prisons - our "civilized" society can, on occasion, be a highly uncivilized and beastly place to survive.
The point of the analogy is that our standard for socializing men and women are very different in this country. Many, many women today are still taught: not to talk back, not to hit back, not to defend their personal boundries to the point that date rape is on the rise, depression is on the rise and domestic violence is on the rise.
Go back and read Darren Lauer's post on date rape. 15% of the college men self-reported that they had raped a girl on a date. 15%
<bf>15%</f>
One in seven college aged men ADMITTED to it.
So people wonder why I think girls should be allowed to wrestle and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder why the girls that play contact sports do better in business?
People wonder why women should be bothered to participate in some rough and tumble play growing up so the first time they need to use their body to defend their body isn't the first time they're being raped???
"The boys may think their sisters are not worth defending"
They seem to already have that problem.
Training in martial arts is a way for women to close this gap in experience. To learn to take a shot and give a shot and get knocked down and get back up.
Training in martial arts can give the women the experiences they need to be able to fight back.
Van or somebody posted that if the brain has no prior experiences to reference it will freeze up. The brain will be unable to offer a solution. Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about a real attack if it should ever come.
Do girls need to play like puppies?
Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world.
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Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
FWIW
I think girls do start out the same. I think we condition them to forfeit or ignore some of the same "play".
I have a seven year old son and a four year old daughter. They wrestle constantly. She can hold her own and I am not inclined to give her the message that "girls don't do that" or be more ladylike.
My son has been active in TKD for two years. Next fall, my daughter will be old enough to join if she wishes. I think she will. She already watches him do katas and punch and kick. She copies brother, and I think she will do well in the "little dragons" class that is offered for 4-6 year olds.
I am not just bragging about my children. Just pointing out that this can be a hard cruel world. I want my daughter to be as prepared for it's challenges as my son.
I think girls do start out the same. I think we condition them to forfeit or ignore some of the same "play".
I have a seven year old son and a four year old daughter. They wrestle constantly. She can hold her own and I am not inclined to give her the message that "girls don't do that" or be more ladylike.
My son has been active in TKD for two years. Next fall, my daughter will be old enough to join if she wishes. I think she will. She already watches him do katas and punch and kick. She copies brother, and I think she will do well in the "little dragons" class that is offered for 4-6 year olds.
I am not just bragging about my children. Just pointing out that this can be a hard cruel world. I want my daughter to be as prepared for it's challenges as my son.
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
"So people wonder why I think girls should be allowed to wrestle
and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I
think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a
school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder
why the girls that play contact sports do better in business? "
I hate to break it to you, but they kinda do that already. And,
I just talked to someone who had that type of rough, tough
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.
"Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks
like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated
attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about
a real attack if it should ever come."
They can still freeze. Men with training freeze, why would women
be that much different.
"Do girls need to play like puppies?"
Our species of animal has different requirements than canines.
Consider this: what aspect of womanhood would the girl have to
sacrifice to be boyish?
"Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world."
The world has more than enough bitches. That whole
"be a bitch" thing is the female version of "be a thug."
That's martial arts on the Keepin' It Real level. Or should I
say, keeping it gangsta. Thugged out. While I know people
shudder at the Mister Rogers type of soft martial philosphies,
just being aggressive and going into growl mode, being hard and
angry, is what will get you knocked out or decked from behind
by another attacker.
It's good to be tough. It's good to be tough and be able to make decisions when your feelings are going beserk, also.
and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I
think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a
school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder
why the girls that play contact sports do better in business? "
I hate to break it to you, but they kinda do that already. And,
I just talked to someone who had that type of rough, tough
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.
"Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks
like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated
attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about
a real attack if it should ever come."
They can still freeze. Men with training freeze, why would women
be that much different.
"Do girls need to play like puppies?"
Our species of animal has different requirements than canines.
Consider this: what aspect of womanhood would the girl have to
sacrifice to be boyish?
"Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world."
The world has more than enough bitches. That whole
"be a bitch" thing is the female version of "be a thug."
That's martial arts on the Keepin' It Real level. Or should I
say, keeping it gangsta. Thugged out. While I know people
shudder at the Mister Rogers type of soft martial philosphies,
just being aggressive and going into growl mode, being hard and
angry, is what will get you knocked out or decked from behind
by another attacker.
It's good to be tough. It's good to be tough and be able to make decisions when your feelings are going beserk, also.
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
"Consider this: what aspect of womanhood would the girl have to
sacrifice to be boyish?"
I don't think the ability to fight and defend yourself are "boyish" qualities. I did not say that I felt women should be more like boys - I said I felt women should learn what it's like to defend themselves physcially - and as you pointed out - it is equally important that learn how to defend themselves emotionally and mentally.
I think this is an important perception to talk about. It seems that lots of people have the idea that a woman must sacrifice some of her "womanhood" in order to learn how to fight. But who is it that is defining womanhood -- and why is the ability to protect yourself in opposition to the idea of what a woman can (should) be?
sacrifice to be boyish?"
I don't think the ability to fight and defend yourself are "boyish" qualities. I did not say that I felt women should be more like boys - I said I felt women should learn what it's like to defend themselves physcially - and as you pointed out - it is equally important that learn how to defend themselves emotionally and mentally.
I think this is an important perception to talk about. It seems that lots of people have the idea that a woman must sacrifice some of her "womanhood" in order to learn how to fight. But who is it that is defining womanhood -- and why is the ability to protect yourself in opposition to the idea of what a woman can (should) be?
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>our "civilized" society can, on
occasion, be a highly uncivilized and beastly place to survive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excepting that FACT is not negative but positive thinking. Our technology has progressed faster than we evolved. We are still predators in every respect. Teach our children to deal with what we are.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I am not just bragging about my children. Just pointing out that this can be a hard
cruel world. I want my daughter to be as prepared for it's challenges as my son. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good plan!
Girls are often placed at a disadvantage (boys as well) by sheltering them from reality. We must be careful not to instill fear in our children as life has much more good than bad. I have raised mine like puppies..I let them fight to know their limits...Let them know that the WEAKER of our species will often use aggression such as rape to feel a sense of power or control. Show them the dangers and how to effectively deal with it. We have developed a society based on rules that are not often based on the "laws of nature". Therefore, many of us are not prepared to deal with the "laws of nature".
So true DanaHowever humans are, for lack of a better work, beasts. We are animals - like it or not.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>our "civilized" society can, on
occasion, be a highly uncivilized and beastly place to survive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excepting that FACT is not negative but positive thinking. Our technology has progressed faster than we evolved. We are still predators in every respect. Teach our children to deal with what we are.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I am not just bragging about my children. Just pointing out that this can be a hard
cruel world. I want my daughter to be as prepared for it's challenges as my son. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good plan!
Girls are often placed at a disadvantage (boys as well) by sheltering them from reality. We must be careful not to instill fear in our children as life has much more good than bad. I have raised mine like puppies..I let them fight to know their limits...Let them know that the WEAKER of our species will often use aggression such as rape to feel a sense of power or control. Show them the dangers and how to effectively deal with it. We have developed a society based on rules that are not often based on the "laws of nature". Therefore, many of us are not prepared to deal with the "laws of nature".
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Tony-San
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Dana,
What does being a "bitch" have to do with self defense? You, yourself said that you must change modes of conciousness in order to survive in a man's world. You've obviously sacrifice, or at least forsaken something to alter your conciousness, I had assumed it was womanhood. if not, what then?
Tony
What does being a "bitch" have to do with self defense? You, yourself said that you must change modes of conciousness in order to survive in a man's world. You've obviously sacrifice, or at least forsaken something to alter your conciousness, I had assumed it was womanhood. if not, what then?
Tony
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Cecil-sama,
Comments interspersed, notated with ** to show where my words are for clarity's sake.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
"So people wonder why I think girls should be allowed to wrestle
and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I
think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a
school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder
why the girls that play contact sports do better in business? "
I hate to break it to you, but they kinda do that already. And,
I just talked to someone who had that type of rough, tough
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.
**Abusers seem to have a sort of radar when it comes to emotional vulnerability, in my professional experience. They will play into the insecurities, pains, grief and whetever other emotions can be used to cripple the critical thinking and assertive facilities of their target(s).
"Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks
like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated
attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about
a real attack if it should ever come."
**This quote, above, may hold true for someone swinging a fist, foot, chair or bottle, but it does not necessarily hold true for an emotionally based attack. EMotional attackers use words, images, feelings, guilt trips and overpowering CONTROL of the targets' day-to-day life, often gaining more and more control through fostering feelings of dependence while simultaneously destroying the vitcim's sense of self worth and critical analytical abilities through isolation, browbeating and the slap-hug approach to emotional control.
They can still freeze. Men with training freeze, why would women
be that much different.
"Do girls need to play like puppies?"
Our species of animal has different requirements than canines.
Consider this: what aspect of womanhood would the girl have to
sacrifice to be boyish?
"Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world."
The world has more than enough bitches. That whole
"be a bitch" thing is the female version of "be a thug."
That's martial arts on the Keepin' It Real level. Or should I
say, keeping it gangsta. Thugged out. While I know people
shudder at the Mister Rogers type of soft martial philosphies,
just being aggressive and going into growl mode, being hard and
angry, is what will get you knocked out or decked from behind
by another attacker.
**One can be an effective fighter - a warrior if you will - without sacrificing manners, assertiveness and propriety. One can achieve without having to be rude, inconsiderate, crude and abusive. When one becomes that kind of person - the "bitch" - how, then, is one different from the abuser who has been putting others down? Where do we draw the line between assertiveness and abusiveness? This is where the situation gets really difficult. When does assertiveness become aggressiveness and when does aggressiveness become abusiveness?
It's good to be tough. It's good to be tough and be able to make decisions when your feelings are going beserk, also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** Agreed on this last. It's also very tough to do.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Comments interspersed, notated with ** to show where my words are for clarity's sake.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cecil:
"So people wonder why I think girls should be allowed to wrestle
and fight with their brothers and counsins? People wonder why I
think girls would be better off if they were allowed to have a
school yard fight or two (or six) while growing up. People wonder
why the girls that play contact sports do better in business? "
I hate to break it to you, but they kinda do that already. And,
I just talked to someone who had that type of rough, tough
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.
**Abusers seem to have a sort of radar when it comes to emotional vulnerability, in my professional experience. They will play into the insecurities, pains, grief and whetever other emotions can be used to cripple the critical thinking and assertive facilities of their target(s).
"Women who train in martial arts will know what an attack looks
like, will know what they did the last time in a simulated
attack and we can only hope will be able to do something about
a real attack if it should ever come."
**This quote, above, may hold true for someone swinging a fist, foot, chair or bottle, but it does not necessarily hold true for an emotionally based attack. EMotional attackers use words, images, feelings, guilt trips and overpowering CONTROL of the targets' day-to-day life, often gaining more and more control through fostering feelings of dependence while simultaneously destroying the vitcim's sense of self worth and critical analytical abilities through isolation, browbeating and the slap-hug approach to emotional control.
They can still freeze. Men with training freeze, why would women
be that much different.
"Do girls need to play like puppies?"
Our species of animal has different requirements than canines.
Consider this: what aspect of womanhood would the girl have to
sacrifice to be boyish?
"Sometimes you need to be a bitch to survive in a man's world."
The world has more than enough bitches. That whole
"be a bitch" thing is the female version of "be a thug."
That's martial arts on the Keepin' It Real level. Or should I
say, keeping it gangsta. Thugged out. While I know people
shudder at the Mister Rogers type of soft martial philosphies,
just being aggressive and going into growl mode, being hard and
angry, is what will get you knocked out or decked from behind
by another attacker.
**One can be an effective fighter - a warrior if you will - without sacrificing manners, assertiveness and propriety. One can achieve without having to be rude, inconsiderate, crude and abusive. When one becomes that kind of person - the "bitch" - how, then, is one different from the abuser who has been putting others down? Where do we draw the line between assertiveness and abusiveness? This is where the situation gets really difficult. When does assertiveness become aggressiveness and when does aggressiveness become abusiveness?
It's good to be tough. It's good to be tough and be able to make decisions when your feelings are going beserk, also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
** Agreed on this last. It's also very tough to do.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
They are human qualities.I don't think the ability to fight and defend yourself are "boyish" qualities.
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I just talked to someone who had that type of rough, tough
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How many men would not be weakened by such a tragedy as well, the abuser kicked in his predatory instincts. I think we all do at some times..most of us however follow the 'rules of civilized behaviour"
attitude in her, but when faced with some actual, live cruelty,
she went passive initially. Took her a year to get out of the
horrible relationship. Why? Because the predator picked her
when she was weak over the death of her child. Kung-fu ain't enough,
sometimes you just have to deal with the hand life gave you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How many men would not be weakened by such a tragedy as well, the abuser kicked in his predatory instincts. I think we all do at some times..most of us however follow the 'rules of civilized behaviour"
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Wouldn't you know I had this nice reply when our server crashed...ah well.
Anyway -
I shouldn't have used the word bitch. That word just has too much baggage. I mean to say that sometimes women need to break out of the old school definition of womanhood. The whole "passive, non-aggressive, don't talk back, don't fight back, etc. And I made a seemingly poor attempt at humor - the idea being a little girl who plays like a puppy will able to fight like a grown female dog. But that just didn't work at all.
There is a difference to me between abuse and assault. The main differences are time and quantity.
I think assault is associated with unique instances.
Abuse implies longer term and multiple instances.
Training to defend against assault is most of what martial arts training covers - at least in my experience.
Training to defend against abuse it a much more complex idea - it involves an awareness of emotional boundries and the ability to know when those boundries have been compromised. It also involves the ability to be aware of what is and is not appropriate in a relationship. And finally it involve the ability to do something to either change or end the relationship.
I think women who train in martial arts can benefit in both areas - but I have no idea if that's true or how to prove it.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 26, 2002).]
Anyway -
I shouldn't have used the word bitch. That word just has too much baggage. I mean to say that sometimes women need to break out of the old school definition of womanhood. The whole "passive, non-aggressive, don't talk back, don't fight back, etc. And I made a seemingly poor attempt at humor - the idea being a little girl who plays like a puppy will able to fight like a grown female dog. But that just didn't work at all.
There is a difference to me between abuse and assault. The main differences are time and quantity.
I think assault is associated with unique instances.
Abuse implies longer term and multiple instances.
Training to defend against assault is most of what martial arts training covers - at least in my experience.
Training to defend against abuse it a much more complex idea - it involves an awareness of emotional boundries and the ability to know when those boundries have been compromised. It also involves the ability to be aware of what is and is not appropriate in a relationship. And finally it involve the ability to do something to either change or end the relationship.
I think women who train in martial arts can benefit in both areas - but I have no idea if that's true or how to prove it.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 26, 2002).]
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Tony-San
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Dana,
I think that Martial Arts teaches it's practitioners to overcome conflict, which as you know has many... many manifestations.
Tony
I think that Martial Arts teaches it's practitioners to overcome conflict, which as you know has many... many manifestations.
Tony
-
Allen M.
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
Oh, woof, woof! Why cannot girls be like puppies such as in treated asexual?
I suspect nature intended the male and the female of the species to compliment, protect, and fulfill each other in different ways, rather than crucifying each other as seems to be fairly common in today's society.
I don't know why women want to be more like men because most men assuradly don't want to be womanish. Is there such a thing as penis envy toward us men by youse women? I don't get it. Why can't men be men and women be women?
In terms of women in karate, I'm all for it, that doesn't subtract from their femininity [nor adds to it either], rather to me it is a neutral atribute, necessary in today's asphalt jungle.
I suspect nature intended the male and the female of the species to compliment, protect, and fulfill each other in different ways, rather than crucifying each other as seems to be fairly common in today's society.
I don't know why women want to be more like men because most men assuradly don't want to be womanish. Is there such a thing as penis envy toward us men by youse women? I don't get it. Why can't men be men and women be women?
In terms of women in karate, I'm all for it, that doesn't subtract from their femininity [nor adds to it either], rather to me it is a neutral atribute, necessary in today's asphalt jungle.
Why canÕt girls be more like puppies?
I am gonna hate myself for jumping into this one...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't know why women want to be more like men because most men assuradly don't want to be womanish. Is there such a thing as penis envy toward us men by youse women? I don't get it. Why can't men be men and women be women?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Truthfully, Allen, I don't get this either. Leaving aside physical attributes, there are characteristics I would value in male or female, just as there are characteristics I would detest in either.
david
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't know why women want to be more like men because most men assuradly don't want to be womanish. Is there such a thing as penis envy toward us men by youse women? I don't get it. Why can't men be men and women be women?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Truthfully, Allen, I don't get this either. Leaving aside physical attributes, there are characteristics I would value in male or female, just as there are characteristics I would detest in either.
david
