http://www.linguafranca.com/9712/nosborne.html
http://www.gendergap.com/military/Warriors.HTM
http://www.koryubooks.com/Library/wwj1.html
This is what happens when you're struck in a hotel on travel. You find time to read lengthy historical articles on the internet.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 29, 2002).]
Ancient Women Warriors
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
Ancient Women Warriors
I believe that, if women want to fight in the military, they shoulld have their own latrines, their own divisions and their own ships, and be off on their own.
Just a thought, but the military wheels may turn more smoothly if that were to happen.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera<font color=white>
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 30, 2002).]
Just a thought, but the military wheels may turn more smoothly if that were to happen.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera<font color=white>
[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 30, 2002).]
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tunetigress
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Ancient Women Warriors
Dana, Thank-you for posting those links. Some fascinating reading in there. I really enjoy this forum as a whole. It is one of the few places on the internet that actually has women posting on topics pertaining to female Martial Artists. Keep up the good work! Respectfully, _(_)_ Tunetigress
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Allen M.
Ancient Women Warriors
HOT FLASH: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/new ... 1.stm">The Modern Woman Warrior Removed from the Front Lines</a>
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Dana Sheets
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Ancient Women Warriors
Women probably would function best in gender-same groups. I imagine that an elite force of women soliders would fight very differently than an elite male force.
I think gender separate training is probably a good idea as long as there is equity in the curriculum covered.
I'm not surprised that women and men don't match up in physical tests like "carry your buddy on your back" for 50 yards. And I think women may be more prone to injury in training due to a lack of a history doing the kinds of things you do as a solider. I wouldn't be surprised if a much lower percentage of women would be able to meet the physical requirements of being a "grunt" ground solider. But there are many, many more ways to fight in a war and serve in battle than being a grunt.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 30, 2002).]
I think gender separate training is probably a good idea as long as there is equity in the curriculum covered.
I'm not surprised that women and men don't match up in physical tests like "carry your buddy on your back" for 50 yards. And I think women may be more prone to injury in training due to a lack of a history doing the kinds of things you do as a solider. I wouldn't be surprised if a much lower percentage of women would be able to meet the physical requirements of being a "grunt" ground solider. But there are many, many more ways to fight in a war and serve in battle than being a grunt.
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 30, 2002).]
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Allen M.
Ancient Women Warriors
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A simple but unmentionable item is their down days during the month. Women can coordinate their activities accordingly, and be a little overstaffed for the occasions when as many as 20-25% can be out of optimum condition [or just plaain out of commission] per month without the disruprions it causes in a mixed group.
And in battle, those wno are real bitchy during their period could be sent to the front lines with attitudes that could just walk right over the enemy.
Mixing men and women in battle is like mixing oil and water, not really a smooth mix. However seperately, each has their own qualities.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
I'll bet women-only groups could make a superior fighting force. Several reasons is that they understand each other and their limitations and can work coherently to their max as a group. For instance an Aircraft carier composed of all women with the pilots being all women navigators.I imagine that an elite force of women soliders would fight very differently than an elite male force.
A simple but unmentionable item is their down days during the month. Women can coordinate their activities accordingly, and be a little overstaffed for the occasions when as many as 20-25% can be out of optimum condition [or just plaain out of commission] per month without the disruprions it causes in a mixed group.
And in battle, those wno are real bitchy during their period could be sent to the front lines with attitudes that could just walk right over the enemy.
Mixing men and women in battle is like mixing oil and water, not really a smooth mix. However seperately, each has their own qualities.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Tony-San
Ancient Women Warriors
I can't think of any women that where very helpful during deployments. They make great Air Traffic Controllers and stuff like that, but when it comes to doing some serious work, like build-up and tear down, they just wheren't there 100%. I've supervised squads for details like this and i'm telling you, i have never seen a hard core female, at least not in the USAF.
It's understandable... these are 12-15 hour days and your lugging 50-100lb packages on your back (stoves, GP Small tents, camoflage kits, etc) and hurling them into or off a Duece.5 or 5 Ton or onto a pallet. Then you load it onto a plane and then you get on the plane and if your lucky, you might get some sleep.
It's understandable... these are 12-15 hour days and your lugging 50-100lb packages on your back (stoves, GP Small tents, camoflage kits, etc) and hurling them into or off a Duece.5 or 5 Ton or onto a pallet. Then you load it onto a plane and then you get on the plane and if your lucky, you might get some sleep.
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Dana Sheets
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Ancient Women Warriors
Mind you, I'm not suggesting that we suddenly have two armies - one male and one female. I wasn't clear in my first post but I think basic training, and high level elite training should be gender separate. I see no reason why regular details in the armies shouldn't be gender mixed. Most of what the armies do today isn't combat (thank God).
I did a documentary on the first woman to be hired as a professional firefighter in the US. There was no physical exam prior to her application to be a firefighter - once they up a test, she passed it. She also firmly belives that if you're not strong enough to hoist up a 50' ladder or carry another firefighter out of the building you shouldn't be in there in the first place.
However - her presence in the fire service has led to a better understanding of how equipment can be made lighter, and still function well. Plus things like gas masks and boots and jackets only came in certain sizes - many were too large for some of the smaller male firefighters. Now there is equipment that fits properly.
I'm not discounting that solidering is an intense physical experience. I'm noting that everyone benefits from lighter - more efficient equipment and standards that come about when women are part of the equation.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
A simple but unmentionable item is their down days during the month. Women can coordinate their activities accordingly, and be a little overstaffed for the occasions when as many as 20-25% can be out of optimum condition [or just plaain out of commission] per month without the disruprions it causes in a mixed group.
And in battle, those wno are real bitchy during their period could be sent to the front lines with attitudes that could just walk right over the enemy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL Allen.
Whew. That's funny. You're saying a PMS factor should be considered when assigning front line duties? Can't you just see the Saturday Night Live skit???
Actually, and I'll go find the study somewhere, women average fewer sick days per year than men. It's just that a higher percentage of those sick days come during our cycles.
Really my point in posting the articles is what women have, over the years, been a factor in warfare. Modern warefare and a modern standing army are big, complex, social constructs that were built around being all male. That's why adding women into the mix is so difficult. If armies had included women from the beginning...who knows??? As Lee pointed out on the other thread, Israel had it that way for awhile.
I did a documentary on the first woman to be hired as a professional firefighter in the US. There was no physical exam prior to her application to be a firefighter - once they up a test, she passed it. She also firmly belives that if you're not strong enough to hoist up a 50' ladder or carry another firefighter out of the building you shouldn't be in there in the first place.
However - her presence in the fire service has led to a better understanding of how equipment can be made lighter, and still function well. Plus things like gas masks and boots and jackets only came in certain sizes - many were too large for some of the smaller male firefighters. Now there is equipment that fits properly.
I'm not discounting that solidering is an intense physical experience. I'm noting that everyone benefits from lighter - more efficient equipment and standards that come about when women are part of the equation.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
A simple but unmentionable item is their down days during the month. Women can coordinate their activities accordingly, and be a little overstaffed for the occasions when as many as 20-25% can be out of optimum condition [or just plaain out of commission] per month without the disruprions it causes in a mixed group.
And in battle, those wno are real bitchy during their period could be sent to the front lines with attitudes that could just walk right over the enemy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL Allen.
Whew. That's funny. You're saying a PMS factor should be considered when assigning front line duties? Can't you just see the Saturday Night Live skit??? Actually, and I'll go find the study somewhere, women average fewer sick days per year than men. It's just that a higher percentage of those sick days come during our cycles.
Really my point in posting the articles is what women have, over the years, been a factor in warfare. Modern warefare and a modern standing army are big, complex, social constructs that were built around being all male. That's why adding women into the mix is so difficult. If armies had included women from the beginning...who knows??? As Lee pointed out on the other thread, Israel had it that way for awhile.
Ancient Women Warriors
Allen-sama,
One issue that you overlook is that a group of women in close quarters will often synchronize their "down-times" as a group.
Given the sometimes debilitating effects of this natural biological situation, this could lead to some serious force depletion, should it occur.
Tony-sama, Again, I point to the Israeli Defense Forces. Women in combat roles daily, doing many of the same things the males do - and doing it well. And, as to fighter pilots, well, with reactions that are across the board somewhat better than males, with generally higher tolerances to G-forces, heat and cold, My guess is that they would do pretty well behind the stick. And the Israelis have shown that they do well on the ground.
Just an FYI. Sometimes the pervading paradigm needs to be challenged. Heaven knows, I could be wrong - it wouldn't be a first if I was right now!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
One issue that you overlook is that a group of women in close quarters will often synchronize their "down-times" as a group.
Given the sometimes debilitating effects of this natural biological situation, this could lead to some serious force depletion, should it occur.
Tony-sama, Again, I point to the Israeli Defense Forces. Women in combat roles daily, doing many of the same things the males do - and doing it well. And, as to fighter pilots, well, with reactions that are across the board somewhat better than males, with generally higher tolerances to G-forces, heat and cold, My guess is that they would do pretty well behind the stick. And the Israelis have shown that they do well on the ground.
Just an FYI. Sometimes the pervading paradigm needs to be challenged. Heaven knows, I could be wrong - it wouldn't be a first if I was right now!
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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Allen M.
Ancient Women Warriors
<font color=blue>
There is one newspaper article, written during the Panama invasion, that turned me off against women warriors forever.
</font><font color=red>
Heavy fighting was going on and a journalist approached a woman officer sitting in her Jeep talking to her men who were, at that very moment, in the middle of a firefight. When the Journalist asked her why she wasn’t in there fighting alongside with her men, she replied: I don’t want to get hurt!”
</font><font color=blue>
My thoughts of women in combat are no longer good. Sorry about that, but that tainted my idea of the “woman warrior” forever.
</font><font color=red>
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
There is one newspaper article, written during the Panama invasion, that turned me off against women warriors forever.
</font><font color=red>
Heavy fighting was going on and a journalist approached a woman officer sitting in her Jeep talking to her men who were, at that very moment, in the middle of a firefight. When the Journalist asked her why she wasn’t in there fighting alongside with her men, she replied: I don’t want to get hurt!”
</font><font color=blue>
My thoughts of women in combat are no longer good. Sorry about that, but that tainted my idea of the “woman warrior” forever.
</font><font color=red>
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
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Guest
Ancient Women Warriors
I wouldn't be surprised if a much lower percentage of women would be able to meet the physical requirements of being a "grunt" ground solider. But there are many, many more ways to fight in a war and serve in battle than being a grunt.
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Danna most of combat is grunt work. That's why they call em grunts. What are we suggesting for those who can't cut the mustard on the front lines? Command?
Those who can not perform are best to keep their posteriors in the rear for the sake of everyone's safety. This applies to both sexes. Just like most things of value, one must earn their spot. No allowances made one must pull their weight or go home.
Black belts don't come with out sweat. Position on the line is the same. I sure would not want an inferior soldier, one who failed to measure up watching my back.
Laird
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Danna most of combat is grunt work. That's why they call em grunts. What are we suggesting for those who can't cut the mustard on the front lines? Command?
Those who can not perform are best to keep their posteriors in the rear for the sake of everyone's safety. This applies to both sexes. Just like most things of value, one must earn their spot. No allowances made one must pull their weight or go home.
Black belts don't come with out sweat. Position on the line is the same. I sure would not want an inferior soldier, one who failed to measure up watching my back.
Laird
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Tony-San
Ancient Women Warriors
Hi Lee,
Sorry, I have no experience with Isreali females, especially not in combat, so any comment I made on the subject would be shallow at best. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that American military women are softer then other countries Female soldiers.
Tony
Sorry, I have no experience with Isreali females, especially not in combat, so any comment I made on the subject would be shallow at best. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that American military women are softer then other countries Female soldiers.
Tony
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Guest
Ancient Women Warriors
I have no problem with women in the military, police force, fire dept. etc. I welcome those who can pass the test. Just don't ask me to make allowances for anyone.
If the qualifications or pre screening criteria require all candidates to be able to do a certain tasks then lets make sure they can. If they can't then they don't qualify reguardless of sex. Lets keep the playing field level. The standard should not be diluted if one can not measure up.
The link Allen put up about women who failed the standard, so be it. The males who failed are also out .
I don't think lowering a standard to meet the needs of employment equity solve anything except statistical reporting.
(what you do not earn is of little value)
Laird
If the qualifications or pre screening criteria require all candidates to be able to do a certain tasks then lets make sure they can. If they can't then they don't qualify reguardless of sex. Lets keep the playing field level. The standard should not be diluted if one can not measure up.
The link Allen put up about women who failed the standard, so be it. The males who failed are also out .
I don't think lowering a standard to meet the needs of employment equity solve anything except statistical reporting.
(what you do not earn is of little value)
Laird
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Allen M.
Ancient Women Warriors
I think in this country that decisions to stay in certain areas, like combat or the Citadel, are made in the court and not on the basis of ability.
I think there is some court action right now going on about men vs women concerning something about the Citadel. Women don't want to be treated equal, whatever that is anymore, they want special considerations because of their gender but not discrimination at the same time. I think they want to have their cake and eat it too.
There are just some places where they haven't got it. The training is just plain too tough. In my way of thinking, to lower the standards for them is disaster waiting to happen.
But this is a "me" generation and a "me" country, so all one has to do is cry loud enough these days and "your will be done." I flatly don't give a hoot's ass anymore becasue my opinions are weightless in these matters. All I can do is stand back and shake my head like most of the rest of us us do.
If women want to fight like a soldier let them have their own division. Then it WILL be party time for the enemy when they get catured because they WILL get captured. A lot of good the courts will do when mass rape gets underway.
Me, I don't see women's position in combat. What if the journalist I mentioned was one of Noreiega's soldiers instead? He would have found himself a real babe, even if he had to slit her throat first.
But if that's what the U.S. Army wants, it's none of my business and I give my support for my country. They can be all they can be, or they can be an army of one, or whatever.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
I think there is some court action right now going on about men vs women concerning something about the Citadel. Women don't want to be treated equal, whatever that is anymore, they want special considerations because of their gender but not discrimination at the same time. I think they want to have their cake and eat it too.
There are just some places where they haven't got it. The training is just plain too tough. In my way of thinking, to lower the standards for them is disaster waiting to happen.
But this is a "me" generation and a "me" country, so all one has to do is cry loud enough these days and "your will be done." I flatly don't give a hoot's ass anymore becasue my opinions are weightless in these matters. All I can do is stand back and shake my head like most of the rest of us us do.
If women want to fight like a soldier let them have their own division. Then it WILL be party time for the enemy when they get catured because they WILL get captured. A lot of good the courts will do when mass rape gets underway.
Me, I don't see women's position in combat. What if the journalist I mentioned was one of Noreiega's soldiers instead? He would have found himself a real babe, even if he had to slit her throat first.
But if that's what the U.S. Army wants, it's none of my business and I give my support for my country. They can be all they can be, or they can be an army of one, or whatever.
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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
