Don't Fight Back - Dispelling a Myth

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:48 pm

I watched a wonderful documentary last night called "Emerging Woman" from 1975. It was made by a group of filmmakers (one of whom I know) about the transition of the America woman the early 1800's to the present. American women have changed from property -- that was passed from father to husband -- to a enfranchised and independent members of society with the freedoms to choose to marry or not, to choose to have children or not, in short -- women now have the freedom to choose.

Sadly, even after we won suffrage we were still assaulted by a religion and a society that said a woman was to "honor and obey" her husband, that legal contracts were to be only in the name of the husband and that women shouldn't think too much lest our brains swell and crack our pretty little heads open. Today, with greater empowerment and greater education those days are slowly fading into the past. Women now have a greater ability, and the means, to choose their own destiny than at any other time in American history. We no longer must be "passive" and "submissive" and "docile" in conversation or in life.

Choice is an amazing, powerful ability that is often called "mindset" on these forums.

Below is an article, courtesy of Alan Lowell and written by Bill Kipp of FAST Defense, about choice in self-defense.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Self Defense Myth #2

"Don't fight back or the attacker will become more enraged and hurt you worse."
I am saddened and surprised that various self-defense instructors and other "experts" in the field are still spreading this myth. Yet every month I hear of cases of people being told this. Probably well meant but horribly misguided, this strong myth has led to many disastrous incidents.

Although Law Enforcement agencies have taken the "don't fight back" stance in the past, they have done a complete reversal of mindset. Current evidence is overwhelmingly in favor in most cases of fighting back. So why is this myth still so often prescribed? My theory is that past inadequate training, poor socialization of women, and "good ole boy" mentality historically conditioned women to play the consummate victim. With all this conditioning to fight against, women in general were typically not empowered to fight back. In fact to the contrary, women were taught to be "nice" and "not make a scene".

Thus there were most likely many incidents where women made half-hearted frail attempts to resist, which may have lead to greater severity in the attacks, causing law enforcement agencies to take the "no fight" stance. The difficulty increases when you add the statistic that approximately ¾ of assaults on women are committed by someone they know.

It's one thing to deal with an attack in a dark alley when it's very clearly an assault. It's a whole other thing when it's someone the victim knows, maybe even likes, respects, or even loves. The role of "caretaker" for which women are so famous and which we men are so grateful, further inhibits taking strong action in self-defense. Then there is what I refer to as the "good ole boy" network that is invested in preventing women from being strong and empowered. Although slowly changing, this network is still unfortunately very alive and well.

From Law Enforcement agents to politicians, executives to teachers, this fear-based mentality continues to exist and proliferate the victimization of women. Recently I heard of a High school gym teacher who pointedly told female students to just "relax" and "take it" if attacked. His advice was that they should carry condoms to have their attacker "cooperatively" wear while raping them. Incidentally, this golden pearl of wisdom was made in the presence of the boys in the class. So much for the education of our youth.

Traditional self-defense courses (often taught by good ole boys) failed to address the effects of the adrenal fear rush. Multitudes of courses instilled false security, infusing students with complicated moves and strategies. Good money was wasted on devices like mace and key chains and myriads of other survival wonder gadgets. Guns were purchased and tucked away for fear of ever having to actually use them. Firearms training were typically centered on shooting at static targets 50 feet away, in sterile non-stress conditions. This same training has more cops being shot by their own guns that criminals managed to get control of and use against them more than not.

People flock to Karate schools to learn self-defense. Lacking adrenal stress conditioning skills, instructors taught the same old traditional methods that were learned from their instructors. Much of this was useless in real situations. I personally struggled with this for years, training in classic Martial Arts while at night I would experience real fights where my Martial skills helped very little. Yet to be fair we had no other paradigm to work from until the fairly recent advent of Adrenal Stress Response Training.

Yet even against all these odds, fighting back was often successful. The vast majority of attackers are frightened, disempowered individuals looking for a sense of control or power in their lives. They prey on the weak and frail and do not want or expect a fight. When the alleged "victim" does not respond accordingly, most assailants will back off. Now with the technology of adrenal stress training, such success stories abound.

Are there times when a victim should choose not to fight back? Not many but sometimes Yes. When the alleged victim feels that they have a better chance of surviving if they acquiesce than if they do not. These cases are rare. Such a case may be an armed gang attack where the odds of successful defense are almost impossible.

Or perhaps to save a child or another loved one. But the operative word is that the person should "choose" to submit, or "choose" to fight back.

No matter what the end result, Adrenal Stress Response Training arms a person with many new choices and the power to act on those choices. And even if they choose to cooperate, their mental and emotional states are better than if they were simply victims, since they still have exercised their power of choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited April 21, 2002).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sun Apr 21, 2002 11:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

In my experience, there seems to be the tendency to pay 'lip-service' to the issues of equality and/or rights for women, but in the Good Ole Boy filled backrooms, 'traditionally-minded' men still continue to minimize the value and contributions of women in our world, and make huge assumptions about a woman's worth and character based mainly upon her appearance.

All the places I've worked since 1965 time-frame I have found no evidence of what you write about. As a consultant I have worked many, many places across the U.S.A. I've had blacks, foreign nationals, and women [as well as whites] as my managers and also people with whom I share the same office or cube throughout the years.

I [most] always work in extreme competitive environments, and the "directs," also known as "captives" as well as us have to produce or out the door we go, regardless of gender, race, nationality, etc. Fact, many times, as a white male, I'm often in the minority of the makeup of the groups I get involved in, and for sure I never feel discriminated against. I put my nose down and get the work done and that's the end of story.

In the type of work I do, if a woman produces, she stays and gets paid appropriately. If not, out she goes. End of story.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

tunetigress · Post by **tunetigress** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:37 am

Well I live in Canada. Maybe we are in some sort of attitudinal time warp here or something.

------------------
Respectfully, _(_)_ Tune

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:26 am

Your first paragraph, Dana, sounds like you feel you've been emancipated. Only in America, land of opportunity, is it possible.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

tunetigress · Post by **tunetigress** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:42 am

In 1975 I was in my first year of University and just beginning to find out how hard I would have to work to overcome both the influences of my conditioning and the strictures and attitudes of our culture in order to make it in what was formerly considered to be a 'man's world.' It has already taken me decades to try to reverse the 'mindset' with which I was indoctrinated in my youth, and I still struggle with the 'perceived' limitations that I still find myself encumbered with regarding my own ability, as well as those put on me by friends, family, and community.

I am now wondering, does the young woman trying to get a foothold in today's world actually have any more of a feeling of 'equality' or 'freedom to choose' than I did 30 years ago? In my experience, there seems to be the tendency to pay 'lip-service' to the issues of equality and/or rights for women, but in the Good Ole Boy filled backrooms, 'traditionally-minded' men still continue to minimise the value and contributions of women in our world, and make huge assumptions about a woman's worth and character based mainly upon her appearance. Honestly I have found men (in general) involved in the Martial Arts far more accepting of the contributions of women than most of the men I have had to deal with in my professional and other community organizations. Perhaps the element of respect has an influence on how Martial Artists treat one another, including females??? Comments??? Respectfully, _(_)_ Tune

[This message has been edited by tunetigress (edited April 21, 2002).]

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:47 am

I do not know what "some sort of attitudinal time-warp thing" is, tunetigress, nor do I know how to address that statement.

Although of Canadian ancestry, I am an American and do not live up there, so I am not familiar with the gender thing up north, tunetigress.

I do remember one incident, however. A woman engineer was "let go" by management, and she was the first on a short list to receive a notice [the first to go is a good thing]. Normally one has a few days to pack the bags. Her technical lead needed someone to finish some work because he was going to be short-handed, so he made the request to management to keep her on to finish a particular task. Her lead stuck his neck out for her and got an effective two-month extension for her.

She was very upset about being let go, and after about three-weeks into her extension, she started crying the gender thing, and was a little messy about it near the end. She was grasping at straws, but her mouth was hurting the morale of her co-workers and caused her immediate termination because management got word that she was damaging their reputation, and she was immediately escorted out the door.

Was it a gender thing? Yeah. They let her go first to give her the prime opportunity to try to latch onto something in the thinning job market. Another person and my self were also sweating it out, but we kept our mouths shut and survived what turned out to be a huge layoff that occurred shortly afterward.

This woman's reputation for crying fowl, when the company actually tried to do her a favor, is now going to follow her around. One lesson she can learn from that is to not bite the hand that feeds her.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:48 am

Thought I'd pipe in on this topic. I'm a newbee to this forum, so please be gentle.

I think a lot of 'sexist' situations in the work place come about because most females don't know how to react, take it, and then complain later about how 'it' was sexist. She didn't find her power and basically rolled over and took it. If you don't call people on stuff, they'll walk all over you.

I had worked for this company for 3 years and was really under paid. The breaking point was when, I was given the task of training this new guy to work in our department who was making more money than I was by nearly $12,000... and he was straight out of college (no experience).

This really ticked me off, so I wrote up a proposal, marking everything I had contributed, what my job encompassed, market research about what other places were paying me, etc. and ended it with asking for a measely $2,000 raise. My boss told me I wasn't worth any raise. Instead of sitting around claiming it was sexist (having to train a guy who made lots more money than I did but no experience), I sent out about a hundred resumes and had a job lined up within 2 months. My boss panicked! To sum it up, my boss had to shell out a $10,000 raise and some pretty good perks to keep me.

If I would have rolled over and took it, I would have been miserable and claimed how unfair (maybe even sexist) it was. Instead, I found my strength and said I'm not going to accept this. What can I do to change it? From that day on, there was a shift in power. It stopped being a male-female thing, it started being about me and my confidence. I knew how much he needed me as an employee and how valuable I really was. I no longer went into his office humble and asking for crumbs. The way he treated me from that day forward changed as well.

This is in contrast with another gal who worked there. She wanted a raise, so she went above her boss' head to the owner of the company. She walked in crying her eyes out with some story about her house taxes going up and walked out with a sizeable raise. She bragged to everyone in the office about it. Wanna know how many people respected that stunt? No one. Those tactics reflect badly on the rest of the female staff, though we had nothing to do with it.

Addressing the comments and article that Dana Sheets brought up, I think Hollywood needs to adjust their attitudes as well. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a TV show or rented movie and watched as the woman is hiding, cowering, trying to find some kind stranger to help her, or waiting hopefully for her rescurer to come. I'm usually talking back to the television saying pick that up and use it as a weapon, do this, try that, don't just cower. (Don't worry, I behave and don't talk to the screen when I'm at the movies

).

[This message has been edited by Colleen (edited April 22, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 1:10 pm

Hi Colleen,

And welcome to the forum!!!
I totally agree about the movies. My friends and I in college used to shout "call 911 and then run OUT of the building" to all the women running from a bad guy in a movie.

Have you ever noticed how many times women in movies run in the basement of a building when they want to get away from a bad guy?

The basement???? Obviously the script writer needed any easy out and basements are cheaper than exteriors to film.

I think your office place story is very accurate. Men come with the idea that they should be payed what they are worth for their work. Women are told hundreds of times by the media that they will get paid less than men for the same work.

But we're not told exactly how much less. And most bosses have a budget they need to stick to so they're not exactly brimming over with the idea of throwing money at employees. So you gotta ask. And you gotta ask in a firm, clear way (unlike the woman who whined about her taxes

)

Same goes for defending yourself. If you're clear about what you have a right to, then you're going to get really riled up when someone tried to take those rights away.

Great thoughts in your post Colleen - please feel welcome to keep contributing!

Tune,
I think one of the best ways for women to learn about this stuff is to here examples from veterans who've been through it. Can you share some of the experiences you found to be unfair?

And Allen -- was that woman told she was getting an advantage by being let go first so she could look for work? Or was this yours and your co-workers perception of the situation?

cheers,
Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited April 22, 2002).]

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:47 pm

Thank you for making me feel welcome, Dana.

Glad to know I'm not the only talking back to the screen when characters do something dumb.

Dana, taking your original thoughts a step further, I think another problem is that some women don't bother to be preventative. They don't look for ways to stop trouble before it starts. Last summer, there was this story about a woman who had someone break into her home and attack her. He climbed through an open window on a ground floor apartment. I brought the news bit up at my old job and every single female said that they sleep with the window open when it was hot (they're all on ground floor too).

When I pointed out that this was not only daft, it was dangerous, the general reply was its worse to sleep with the window closed and be hot. A couple said that it was alright because their husbands would take care of any attacker who broke in.

The worst part is, they couldn't understand why I was so blown away by this attitude. They couldn't understand why I won't sleep with an open window, or why I always lock my front door, or have my keys in hand when I head out to my car. Most people think I'm being paranoid. My view is that I'm just taking little steps to be preventative.

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

To sum it up, my boss had to shell out a $10,000 raise and some pretty good perks to keep me.

Good for you, Colleen. You really told your boss you weren’t worth the 2k, didn’t you!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

From that day on, there was a shift in power. It stopped being a male-female thing

In many cases it has to do with the person, rather than the gender. Not all, however.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I can't tell you how many times I've watched a TV show or rented movie and watched as the woman is hiding, cowering, trying to find some kind stranger to help her, or waiting hopefully for her rescurer to come.

I never notice what you do, Colleen, and it must be in the perspective. See, I notice all over TV and movies where even in the commercials, women and children are putting down men and treating them as if they were stupid. There seem to be a lot of new TV heroines but no new heros…

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Women are told hundreds of times by the media that they will get paid less than men for the same work.
But we're not told exactly how much less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I suppose it’s what one’s into and where one works. That’s not true in many places.Now, places that I am familiar with have discrete pay grades and often people know what each other make.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

And Allen -- was that woman told she was getting an advantage by being let go first so she could look for work? Or was this yours and your co-workers perception of the situation?

I told her. My co-workers didn't have a clue to what was happening around them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

the general reply was its worse to sleep with the window closed and be hot. A couple said that it was alright because their husbands would take care of any attacker who broke in.

That has to be the optimum in stupidity.

I’ve lived where people leave their windows open at night and their car running with windows down and unlocked while they go in to the corner grocery store. I never got the hang of it.

[Edited for clarity and conciseness]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited April 23, 2002).]

david · Post by **david** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I think another problem is that some women don't bother to be preventative. They don't look for ways to stop trouble before it starts. Last summer, there was this story about a woman who had someone break into her home and attack her. He climbed through an open window on a ground floor apartment.

It's part of the subconscious notion (denial) that it happens to the other person. But it doesn't. This happened exactly with a good friend of mine from college. After college, we lived several blocks from each other in the same neighborhood. Used to go hang out with her an her roommates after work on weekends. One day I went over and I could immediately sensed something happened... My friend was home alone, sleeping and one of the windows was opened. It was devestating for her. It was for us, her friends.

I know of two females on our staff who have been raped. Again, very traumatic and tough for other staff to be supportive and yet confidential.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

They couldn't understand why I won't sleep with an open window, or why I always lock my front door, or have my keys in hand when I head out to my car. Most people think I'm being paranoid. My view is that I'm just taking little steps to be preventative.

Good for you. Rely on yourself and don't worry about what others think. I'm in this funny situation where I work in community services and there is a perception of us as being "touchy-feely" types. I am that to a degree but I am also prepare for Wham-Bam- knock-you-down, if I have to. You see the reactions I get sometimes in the "professional circle" when folks see this aspect of me. (Shrug)

david

Cecil · Post by **Cecil** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:24 pm

Colleen,

Just because you handled sexism well, does not mean that the sexism did not exist or was not a factor in the problem you described. The thing about all sorts of -isms is that if they were not there, you would not have to experience that sort of thing in the first place. You are a ram among sheep. Yet, the world still has its wolves.

Of course, I know the jerks of the world are not going to disappear just because I want them to.

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:28 am

I think it's dangerous ground to suggest that any injustices between men and women should be called sexism. This really detracts from where there is a geniune sexism/harrasment situation.

At a friend's work the company goes golfing once a month usually during the summer. He was going on about how sexist it was because all the guys in the company went out golfing while the women stayed back at the office working. Yet, when I asked if any of the women golfed, he said no. Then I asked if any woman said they wanted to go and learn, he said no. Finally I asked, if they said they wanted to go would they be allowed to? Yes, of course was his answer.

If the women don't want to golf then it should be marked up to different prefrences, not sexism. Yet that was my friend's view of the situation, it's sexist.

Strange...a man is saying it's sexism and me, a female, is saying it's not. The world is pretty crazy.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Colleen:
I think it's dangerous ground to suggest that any injustices between men and women should be called sexism. This really detracts from where there is a geniune sexism/harrasment situation.

At a friend's work the company goes golfing once a month usually during the summer. He was going on about how sexist it was because all the guys in the company went out golfing while the women stayed back at the office working. Yet, when I asked if any of the women golfed, he said no. Then I asked if any woman said they wanted to go and learn, he said no. Finally I asked, if they said they wanted to go would they be allowed to? Yes, of course was his answer.

If the women don't want to golf then it should be marked up to different prefrences, not sexism. Yet that was my friend's view of the situation, it's sexist.

Strange...a man is saying it's sexism and me, a female, is saying it's not. The world is pretty crazy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Colleen-sama,

Great posts - keep them coming!

Your comment on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of calling something sexism is right on the mark. Too often does someone cry "this-ism, or that-ism," when the problem is really their own behavior.

We have become a nation of people unwilling to take responsibility for our own actions. And that scares me.

To hide behind an -ism is sometimes to hide from the Truth.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.