Throwing to create injury

[Dana Sheets]

Hmmm. I guess my question would be: how long do they have to leave their feet for it to be a throw vs a takedown?

Are you familiar with shuaichiao?
http://www.shuaichiao.org/html_files/throw_alley/throw_alley_index.htm

There are several spellings but it is the chinese traditional of fast wresting. Basically I understand that a "throw" in the chinese definition is breaking their root (balance) and bringing them to the ground. I think I'm using throw more in this sense.

Also - if you do the techniques I described full tilt - uke's head hits the floor first in two of them. The idea being to maximize the damage done to uke during the throw/takedown so you have less or no work once they're on the ground.

There is a very nice shuaiciao movement that could (notice I said could) be pulled from the rear swinging koken strike in seisan.

For this (I guess you would call takedown) they attack you from behind - the good ole bear-hug around the waist. You hook your foot behind their foot and press out and down on their knee with your hand. Do it softly they stumble backwards. Do it smooth and strong they fall. Either way you break their root and since they're worried about getting their balance back they let go of you.

That sounds like a great tape Mike. I'd love to take a look at it sometime. Any chance you'd send a short clip of it to Scott to post on the video page?

Dana

[mikemurphy]

Dana,

Once again, I can see what you are saying concerning the techniques you are taking out of Uechi. It's a good question that I think I'll bring up in my forum. What do we consider a throw vs. takedown.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. I don't know if you know what a kotegaishi is (I forget what it is in Aikido (sankyu or nikyu), but from this technique I can certainly launch someone if they are willing. Meaning?? By manipulating the wrist in such a fashion, he or she will throw themselves in order to allieviate the pain. Now does that constitute a throw or a takedown?

I'd love to pass something to scott if I knew how. I'm such a novice at that sort of thing.

mike

[f.Channell]

Mike,
I would call the technique in sanseiryu a throw that dana is referring to.
Due to the fact that the person executing the technique stays standing.
The movement in Dan kumite I would call a takedown, due to the fact that in reality, your going down with them, but should be on top.
Interesting to point out the difference, never really thought about it. There are many takedowns in BJJ and ultimate fighting techniques but not many throws.
Fred

[Dana Sheets]

Fred - have you tried the Dan kumite move at the top of the hip & the back of the knee WHILE stepping through their center instead of setting it up with an elbow strike the way it is in the kumite?

I don't think you'll go down with them as easily as you might think.

Dana

[mikemurphy]

Fred,

Here's a question for you then. If going down with the person signifies a takedown what would you classify a sutemi waza? If doing sumiotoshi or tomeonage or uke waza, or even yokowakare, do you think you wouldn't be doing a throw? Just wondering.

mike

[f.Channell]

Mike,
Yes I look at those as throws, some of the crew I do Uechi with like to grab on during that dan kumite takedown, the difference I see is I really wasn't intending to go down.
Whereas the sutemi waza I intended to from the start. Sutemi waza are my favorite throws.
Of course pulling the person in that Dan takedown could reverse the throw into a throw counter of their own.
Dana,
My favorite way I was taught to do that takedown was from Kazunori Maemiya.
He stepped in and caught the arm with his left, struck the shoulder with his right, and struck the persons right leg with his right, right around the knee area. Theres a pressure point above that knee on the inside which makes the leg kind of collapse, I think i've hit it once in thousands of tries, but it's there. Hitting the area does disrupt the balance, even if you miss that point.
A nice alternative to the right hand hitting the shoulder is a bushiken to the face, a bit dangerous to do every class-but it works well.
I try to disrupt the balance and get them falling long before I grab the leg or push the hip, grabbing the leg of a guy still in balance has never ended as a successful throw for me.
Fred

[Bill Glasheen]

Dana and company

I'm surprised you guys aren't talking about more throws/takedowns in the Uechi kata. I find them all over the place.

BTW, Mike, kotegaeshi in jujitsu is the same name in aikido. And that technique is in sanseiryu. Know where??

I find just as many throws/takedowns in the early kata as I do in sanseiryu. The horse stance movement in kanshiwa is a classic. Instead of doing the move we do in the bunkai against a knife, try instead to snake the leg behind their legs. Then do the elbow movement as arm bar to throat. It becomes a hip throw with attitude.

"Hawk chases sparrow" is one of my favorites. I can think of four distinct takedown/throw movements off the top of my head right now. Two come straight from aikido.

Sanseiryu does indeed hold the lion's share of these movements. Several movements I can think of have multiple takedown/throw applications.

As Larry Tan used to say, there are only so many ways to twist the human body; after a while, you start repeating yourself. The key to understanding the connections in the kata is in unfreezing the mind. As Nakahodo once said in a seminar (and I paraphrase based on Gary Khoury's translation), kata is a study of the principles of movement, and not a study of specific applications. Once you grasp that concept, you can see where many of the throws and takedowns we practice in partner exercises are right in our very own kata.

Perhaps this would be a good camp seminar topic, no?

BTW, Dana, I tend to agree with the general consensus that nothing replaces a human body. The real art of judo/jujitsu/aikido is in the movements and counter movements that create the throws. You can do a few very basic things with dead weight, but that's it.

If you really want to hurt someone with a throw, there are several things to consider. First, any movement that might be a takedown often has a way to do it that creates a joint dislocation. Shihonage comes to mind, as does shomen ikkyo. Another thing to consider is that we practice on mats. The best of individuals will have a rough time on concrete. Anyone improperly trained in ukemi isn't going to make it past the first waza. It's no different in the striking arts if you think about it. Any decent fighter knows how to take a few hits. The average person will get hurt more readily. And most people get hurt much more quickly without all the equipment on and without techniques being pulled.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Dana

It took me a while to get back online here. For some reason, the net was giving me a hard time yesterday.

The application of "hawk chases sparrow" you are talking about actually is in aikido. The name is ude hineri, or shoulder rotation (gaeshi and hineri are both joint rotations, but they go in opposite directions). Most versions of it do not necessarily involve the leg coming up and smashing anything. If anything, a most important aspect of it is instead orienting one's body with respect to the opponent. That can be where the leg part comes in. The classic version sends someone head over heels. Bobby Campbell had a version of it he liked that instead spun someone like a top. One can subsequently "greet" someone with fist in face as they spin back towards you. But then you have to be tall (like Bobby) to pull that one off easily.

Let's chat about it at camp.

- Bill

[student]

Bill:

My aikido vocabulary is limited. Is the ude hineri you described also known as the Irish Whip?

Murray/student

[Bill Glasheen]

student

I do not know what the Irish Whip is, so I can't help you there.

Think of it this way... Stand to the right side of someone. Take your left hand and hold their right wrist that is hanging by their side. If you bring your left arm around in a clockwise circle VERY TIGHT to their body, you will eventually reach a point (at around 9:00) where the arm won't go any further. Many aikido techniques work the way of chain turned to rod when you twist it enough. At that point, further movement of their arm causes the whole body to go forward. If you put right hand on the back of head while you are continuing to bring the arm around, you can essentially rotate their body in space around their center of gravity. The feeling you have when you do it with two hands is that you are turning a steering wheel.

The real art to applying the technique is reorienting yourself w.r.t the attacker so you get that lateral positioning on them while manipulating the attacking arm.

As for the Bobby Campbell "spin" on things (sorry...bad pun), picture yourself instead spinning someone like a top rather than head over heels. They will be somewhat contorted when you do that, but that's actually necessary to break the center so the spinning can be done with ease.

It is possible to do this technique using the arm alone, but putting the other hand on the back of the head helps. When you do it this double-handed way, it looks exactly like a technique in Uechi sanseiryu that is done facing NW after just having done double hirakens facing NE and just before turning into "sanchin" facing West. The Uechi student is first exposed to the technique in seichin kata, but that is a "bridge" form choreographed long after The Big Three were created. (FWIW)

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

We train Bobby's version at our school - which is also a nice alternative because it can lead to a rear standing choke (you standing -them leaning back thinking you're about to break their neck)

One shorin-ryu teacher I trained with said when you get someone in a good tight choke when they don't expect it, you have several second to shout into their ear to convince them that they've been doing someting terrible enough that if you weren't such a nice person you would have already broken his neck. The shorin-ryu sensei had worked as a bouncer - so he would always walk them out the door afterwords, but he felt like he should at least try to teach them the error or their ways.

And yes - I think the irish whip is a very similar technique.

Bill - the way I learned you stay toe to toe with the attacker - so I'm interested in the positioning you're talking about - and also how you'd get to that point with a non-compliant uke.

I think it's also a point of discussion to talk about major vs minor principles in Uechi. hmmmm - that sounds like a new thread.

Dana

[Bill Glasheen]

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I'm interested in the positioning you're talking about - and also how you'd get to that point with a non-compliant uke.

One of my aikido instructors (Clyde Takaguchi) used to espouse that movement was the most important part of an aikido technique. To the untrained eye, it appears that the hands are doing it all. That's just an illusion.

How does the torreador handle the bull? It isn't force. The tenshin stepping (out of the Uechi hojoundo) is the root of the movement required to pull it off.

I'll show you at camp.

- Bill