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My point about the stoning is not how it relates to capital punishment but in how it relates to men's frequent inability to interact with women and their sexuality without becoming brutes or killers. I think we're asking the same question, in short, what's wrong with guys and what do we do about it?
Comments Please
Ah.... 
I get it. Thanks Ian.
Then again, I'm not sure it's always men - there are a few women who walk on the dark side as well. Prime example - Karla Holmoka (Paul Bernardo's wife). Helped him kill her sister (actually offered her sister up to him for his sexual pleasure), helped to kidnap and abuse two teenage girls actually videotaped and participated in the abuse and murder and aided in the disposing of the bodies.
Maybe it's not always a "dealing with sexuality" of the victim but a deviation in the sexuality of the offender.
I get it. Thanks Ian.Then again, I'm not sure it's always men - there are a few women who walk on the dark side as well. Prime example - Karla Holmoka (Paul Bernardo's wife). Helped him kill her sister (actually offered her sister up to him for his sexual pleasure), helped to kidnap and abuse two teenage girls actually videotaped and participated in the abuse and murder and aided in the disposing of the bodies.
Maybe it's not always a "dealing with sexuality" of the victim but a deviation in the sexuality of the offender.
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Dana Sheets
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Comments Please
Sexual deviancy is a difficult and highly charged topic to debate. It is also difficult to know your real risk - especially since the U.S. media loves to create an environment of fear and sensationalism in the news. And the most extreme and disgusting acts are going to get the most coverage.
Like any other thing in life, sexual acts and fetishes/obsessions and acts of violence fall along a continuum from minimum to maximum. Since rape shows up in multiple societies I guess it is something that runs deeply in human nature.
Raping, pilaging, and killing of children of the conquered was considered part of what you did if you won the war -- in order to ensure that your kind survived.
But today - there are rapists who act from different social pressures than existed in the past and there are women who are more willing to speak up than in the past. The "date rape" epidemic is the most disturbing to me. It seems to happen mostly between younger women and younger men. A group that is at it's peak of sexual ability and a group that is often not yet empowered to speak up for their needs.
But is there a fundamental need to change men? No. Just as there is no fundamental need to change women. I think what needs to be exlpored is how we are socialized, what role media, family, community, peers, religion, and school play in that socialization and where the system is breaking down.
Dana
Like any other thing in life, sexual acts and fetishes/obsessions and acts of violence fall along a continuum from minimum to maximum. Since rape shows up in multiple societies I guess it is something that runs deeply in human nature.
Raping, pilaging, and killing of children of the conquered was considered part of what you did if you won the war -- in order to ensure that your kind survived.
But today - there are rapists who act from different social pressures than existed in the past and there are women who are more willing to speak up than in the past. The "date rape" epidemic is the most disturbing to me. It seems to happen mostly between younger women and younger men. A group that is at it's peak of sexual ability and a group that is often not yet empowered to speak up for their needs.
But is there a fundamental need to change men? No. Just as there is no fundamental need to change women. I think what needs to be exlpored is how we are socialized, what role media, family, community, peers, religion, and school play in that socialization and where the system is breaking down.
Dana
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Bill Glasheen
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Dana
You display the wisdom of someone twice your age.
It's so nice seeing someone appreciate "life" - the good and the bad - for what it was in the past and what it can be today. A less moralistic and species-centric view of sociobiology offers much in the way of understanding for why we see things that seem to make no sense. That's not to suggest that we should promote moral relativism. Instead I believe we must understand that ultimately we survive best when well educated on a multidimensional level.
May the world be blessed with many more "happy savants" like you, Dana.
- Bill
You display the wisdom of someone twice your age.
It's so nice seeing someone appreciate "life" - the good and the bad - for what it was in the past and what it can be today. A less moralistic and species-centric view of sociobiology offers much in the way of understanding for why we see things that seem to make no sense. That's not to suggest that we should promote moral relativism. Instead I believe we must understand that ultimately we survive best when well educated on a multidimensional level.
May the world be blessed with many more "happy savants" like you, Dana.
- Bill
Comments Please
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You are a neat package of wisdom, physical and emotional intensity, wrapped in a hidden strength package, like the strength of a Puma.
Best of life.
------------------
Van Canna
Yes, I too wish there were more like you Dana.May the world be blessed with many more "happy savants" like you, Dana
You are a neat package of wisdom, physical and emotional intensity, wrapped in a hidden strength package, like the strength of a Puma.
Best of life.
------------------
Van Canna
Comments Please
I don't dispute that there are some ultraviolent and sexually violent women out there... and as was pointed out, the US media likes to highlight the more interesting stuff and that means a brutal woman is going to get more coverage than a brutal guy. The last I had heard about 98% of the murders (sorry, can't cite) were committed by men, but this fact generally gets far less attention than the kind of excitement one would hear about the finding that men just started suffering 98% of heart attacks. Can you imagine the fuss? The sexual assault business is quite disproportionate too. Women are more likely to suffer; where males suffer, the assailants are often males as well.
I'm not saying there's anything intrinsically wrong with men (I am one, afterall) but there's something fundamentally wrong with that number, and there's something fundamentally wrong with how we came to accept it as part of life. If the ratio was 50/50 and then last month it switched to 2/98, there'd be a state of emergency declared or something. But as it stands when I was asked to look for the most important questions to ask people as part of a routine health questionnaire to prevent injuries, when I looked at space considerations and the likelihood of events, it didn't make sense to do some of the recommended ER type screening for domestic violence (did anyone do this to you, is there anyone you are afraid of, has anyone kicked/ punched/ pushed/ hurt you?). The prevalence was high enough that it made more sense to just give all women information on agencies that could help.
In another thread it was suggested that men ought to be trained to recognize the signs of mental illness in women to prevent cases of child abuse and neglect... should we do that for men to prevent assaults? Is it nature or nuture, or both? Regardless, where do we intervene?
I'm not saying there's anything intrinsically wrong with men (I am one, afterall) but there's something fundamentally wrong with that number, and there's something fundamentally wrong with how we came to accept it as part of life. If the ratio was 50/50 and then last month it switched to 2/98, there'd be a state of emergency declared or something. But as it stands when I was asked to look for the most important questions to ask people as part of a routine health questionnaire to prevent injuries, when I looked at space considerations and the likelihood of events, it didn't make sense to do some of the recommended ER type screening for domestic violence (did anyone do this to you, is there anyone you are afraid of, has anyone kicked/ punched/ pushed/ hurt you?). The prevalence was high enough that it made more sense to just give all women information on agencies that could help.
In another thread it was suggested that men ought to be trained to recognize the signs of mental illness in women to prevent cases of child abuse and neglect... should we do that for men to prevent assaults? Is it nature or nuture, or both? Regardless, where do we intervene?
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Dana Sheets
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Comments Please
First off -
Bill & Van --
ya'll just can't go complimenting me that way without me wanting to say "aw shucks, t'aint nothin'." To be honest, most of my views can be expressed by the yin & yang symbol. As yang rises, the yin receeds, and vice-versa - and there is a touch of each in each - nothing is ever just one or just the other.
<hr>
[quote]and there's something fundamentally wrong with how we came to accept it as part of life[quote]
Ian - I think we're saying something similar. I am not complacement nor welcoming of the fact that there is a good deal of sexual violence against women. I am observing how this came to be and wondering how it came to be so prevalent.
There are folks doing research into the "columbine effect" of how young males are struggling to find a role for themselves in our modern society. We don't need that many of them to be soliders, there isn't that much hard physical labor for them to do to test themselves outside of sports arenas, and we no longer hunt. So not only are these young men full of life, vim and vigor, they're also full of an identify crisis. So if I continue on my logic, I'm not overly surprised that date rape is happening and is happening more often. If you're a young, viril male, and you can't conquer the world or hunt for your dinner you can, and are often encouraged in our culture, to conquest woman.
Losing your virginity makes you a man, sleeping with several women proves your manliness, and knowing that you can/have bed(ed) several partners boosts self-esteem. - or so goes the subtext.
Now due to diversity in our species there will be groups of young men that don't feel this way - but I think many will feel something like it - the call of the wild if you will. Go forth and see the world and sow your seed & all that jazz.
I think we're not providing for the needs of the young men in our society to get up and DO THINGS. They don't really want to sit in classrooms and get degrees and get boring but well paying office jobs. They want to be Alexander the Great, Leonardo DaVinci, Jeff Gordon, Superman...
There was a rather pithy bit of dialogue in the last installment of Jurassic Park that highlights what I'm talking about. The good doctor was talking about why his assistant would have stolen dinosaur eggs from the predatory Raptors.
He said something like:
"There are some boys that are astronomers and some that are astronauts. Some boys are happy to study the starts and wonder what is out there and figure out how to understand why they move and how they give light. And the other kind of boy wants to get into the space ship and go see the star himself. Hold them in his hands or stand on their suface."
I think we're asking too many men in our culture to sit and be still and not giving them an outlet for their energy. And once you start to feel like you're tied to a stake and being held back...it's not long before you turn violent.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited August 26, 2002).]
Bill & Van --
ya'll just can't go complimenting me that way without me wanting to say "aw shucks, t'aint nothin'."
To be honest, most of my views can be expressed by the yin & yang symbol. As yang rises, the yin receeds, and vice-versa - and there is a touch of each in each - nothing is ever just one or just the other. <hr>
[quote]and there's something fundamentally wrong with how we came to accept it as part of life[quote]
Ian - I think we're saying something similar. I am not complacement nor welcoming of the fact that there is a good deal of sexual violence against women. I am observing how this came to be and wondering how it came to be so prevalent.
There are folks doing research into the "columbine effect" of how young males are struggling to find a role for themselves in our modern society. We don't need that many of them to be soliders, there isn't that much hard physical labor for them to do to test themselves outside of sports arenas, and we no longer hunt. So not only are these young men full of life, vim and vigor, they're also full of an identify crisis. So if I continue on my logic, I'm not overly surprised that date rape is happening and is happening more often. If you're a young, viril male, and you can't conquer the world or hunt for your dinner you can, and are often encouraged in our culture, to conquest woman.
Losing your virginity makes you a man, sleeping with several women proves your manliness, and knowing that you can/have bed(ed) several partners boosts self-esteem. - or so goes the subtext.
Now due to diversity in our species there will be groups of young men that don't feel this way - but I think many will feel something like it - the call of the wild if you will. Go forth and see the world and sow your seed & all that jazz.
I think we're not providing for the needs of the young men in our society to get up and DO THINGS. They don't really want to sit in classrooms and get degrees and get boring but well paying office jobs. They want to be Alexander the Great, Leonardo DaVinci, Jeff Gordon, Superman...
There was a rather pithy bit of dialogue in the last installment of Jurassic Park that highlights what I'm talking about. The good doctor was talking about why his assistant would have stolen dinosaur eggs from the predatory Raptors.
He said something like:
"There are some boys that are astronomers and some that are astronauts. Some boys are happy to study the starts and wonder what is out there and figure out how to understand why they move and how they give light. And the other kind of boy wants to get into the space ship and go see the star himself. Hold them in his hands or stand on their suface."
I think we're asking too many men in our culture to sit and be still and not giving them an outlet for their energy. And once you start to feel like you're tied to a stake and being held back...it's not long before you turn violent.
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited August 26, 2002).]
Comments Please
NOW the thread is getting juicy :0)
I'm the first to agree that the values driving our culture are, well, sucky. We celebrate athletes, actors, moronic television, consumerism, junk food, violence, and there are a lot of kids who've come in to a lot of comforts without having to work for them the same way their parents did.
I agree that there is a void in the lives of young people's lives and that their energies are being diverted away from, say, education and making something of themselves or helping other people to obtaining status in their little group, wearing the right clothes or otherwise being cool, up to and including selling or using drugs or stealing stuff (like my car, grr) or in some cases, wanting to get pregnant at 15 because they've got nothing better to do. I also agree that the central role of male as breadwinner is being threatened, and jobs are no longer secure, or as meaningful, threatening male egos, and you see guys seeking for meaning in their lives to replace that capitalist tradition. Sometimes they do it like "Fight Club" and sometimes it's no more threatening than a little "Full Monty."
But I think the flavor of what's missing is somewhat different. It's not quite, IMNSHO, that there is no an area to achieve in, or no area to achieve in by using those stereotypically male virtues of strength or competitiveness. Just missing those avenues does not explain violence and certainly not violence to women.
Because if that's all it was, a young man could simply take up sports and show his prowess there. Boys could have flourishing, high-prestige soccer and basketball and football leagues. You don't need to be violent just to do guy stuff.
Actually to make things even more fun for those bored boys, they could all take up martial arts. Here's competition, fighting, strength, skill, a little bit of narcissistic performance time. Ah, but the violence in the martial arts typically comes with a healthy yin dose of 1) meaning and purpose 2) restraint 3) lack of malice 4) apprenticeship and respect for higher ups 5) perseverance.
And let's shift gears a little bit and think Amish. Here's a place where a young man can't do much but grow up and be the same farmer, house builder, craftsman his father was in the same close knit community. There aren't any sports idols or rockstars. There's no competition or violence. No place for a boy stretch out his genetically programmed, testosterone driven wings and THEREFORE what one might think is another place where a frustrated boy might act out with date rape etc provided the above theory is all that is going on.
But that isn't generally the case, lest all that Amish sexual violence is just being covered up.
The difference is that at the center of these Amish boys lives is community, faith, productivity, interdepedence, mutual respect, and this meaning circumvents the destructive energy you see other boys expressing.
Sure, boys will get restless if they've got nothing to do... but that alone won't make them the violent kind of type that rapes. That kind of person has an animalistic lack of empathy, and a sadism, that is NOT inherent to boys. Maybe boys (at least in this culture, and probably generally) are more prone to succumb to the Dark Side, but I think sexual violence COULD be a rare occurence if some real values were instilled in our youth for a change.
The question is how to do that.
I'm the first to agree that the values driving our culture are, well, sucky. We celebrate athletes, actors, moronic television, consumerism, junk food, violence, and there are a lot of kids who've come in to a lot of comforts without having to work for them the same way their parents did.
I agree that there is a void in the lives of young people's lives and that their energies are being diverted away from, say, education and making something of themselves or helping other people to obtaining status in their little group, wearing the right clothes or otherwise being cool, up to and including selling or using drugs or stealing stuff (like my car, grr) or in some cases, wanting to get pregnant at 15 because they've got nothing better to do. I also agree that the central role of male as breadwinner is being threatened, and jobs are no longer secure, or as meaningful, threatening male egos, and you see guys seeking for meaning in their lives to replace that capitalist tradition. Sometimes they do it like "Fight Club" and sometimes it's no more threatening than a little "Full Monty."
But I think the flavor of what's missing is somewhat different. It's not quite, IMNSHO, that there is no an area to achieve in, or no area to achieve in by using those stereotypically male virtues of strength or competitiveness. Just missing those avenues does not explain violence and certainly not violence to women.
Because if that's all it was, a young man could simply take up sports and show his prowess there. Boys could have flourishing, high-prestige soccer and basketball and football leagues. You don't need to be violent just to do guy stuff.
Actually to make things even more fun for those bored boys, they could all take up martial arts. Here's competition, fighting, strength, skill, a little bit of narcissistic performance time. Ah, but the violence in the martial arts typically comes with a healthy yin dose of 1) meaning and purpose 2) restraint 3) lack of malice 4) apprenticeship and respect for higher ups 5) perseverance.
And let's shift gears a little bit and think Amish. Here's a place where a young man can't do much but grow up and be the same farmer, house builder, craftsman his father was in the same close knit community. There aren't any sports idols or rockstars. There's no competition or violence. No place for a boy stretch out his genetically programmed, testosterone driven wings and THEREFORE what one might think is another place where a frustrated boy might act out with date rape etc provided the above theory is all that is going on.
But that isn't generally the case, lest all that Amish sexual violence is just being covered up.
The difference is that at the center of these Amish boys lives is community, faith, productivity, interdepedence, mutual respect, and this meaning circumvents the destructive energy you see other boys expressing.
Sure, boys will get restless if they've got nothing to do... but that alone won't make them the violent kind of type that rapes. That kind of person has an animalistic lack of empathy, and a sadism, that is NOT inherent to boys. Maybe boys (at least in this culture, and probably generally) are more prone to succumb to the Dark Side, but I think sexual violence COULD be a rare occurence if some real values were instilled in our youth for a change.
The question is how to do that.
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Bill Glasheen
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Comments Please
Hmmm...
Why are we so shocked that men have violent tendencies and SOME men use them inappropriately?
Why do we neuter Fido to make him a better "pet," or neuter a horse to make him easier to handle?
It's programmed in our DNA - by a process of natural selection - to have a bit of pi$$ and vinegar in us when tanked up on testosterone. There were times in the past where being a passive male meant not being able to pass your genes on. When the going got rough and the competition turned to violence, the victors took the spoils and wrote the history.
Where does sexual violence fit in all this? Well when you consider that the same hormone causes aggressive behavior and increases fertility and libido, it makes sense that things might get a little mixed up with some blokes in the gene pool.
Through cycles of peace and violence, we have evolved to a species that depends on social order to maximize our potential to carry on. But we cannot escape our genetic past, nor do I think we should.
It goes without saying that father figures in families do a lot to help young boys grow up to be socially functional males. One need only review prison populations and take a tally of parenting to see this to be the case. We males are born with a fairly flexible set of skills, and depend on the previous generation to help us adapt to social norms of the time. Teaching life skills through parenting and role modeling is part of our survival formula. If - God forbid - anarchy should reign one day, those necessary skill sets could perhaps be different. But they must be molded differently to function in our own society.
When you allow any peer in society to draw on that blank slate, you get social graffitti.
I think Dana's on the right track though. Any damn fool can father a child, but it takes great skills to be a father. It isn't easy tempering those blades into useful tools in society. And a young male does need a venue to display his tailfeathers. But SHOWING UP is a good start.
One last thing... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited August 27, 2002).]
Why are we so shocked that men have violent tendencies and SOME men use them inappropriately?
Why do we neuter Fido to make him a better "pet," or neuter a horse to make him easier to handle?
It's programmed in our DNA - by a process of natural selection - to have a bit of pi$$ and vinegar in us when tanked up on testosterone. There were times in the past where being a passive male meant not being able to pass your genes on. When the going got rough and the competition turned to violence, the victors took the spoils and wrote the history.
Where does sexual violence fit in all this? Well when you consider that the same hormone causes aggressive behavior and increases fertility and libido, it makes sense that things might get a little mixed up with some blokes in the gene pool.
Through cycles of peace and violence, we have evolved to a species that depends on social order to maximize our potential to carry on. But we cannot escape our genetic past, nor do I think we should.
It goes without saying that father figures in families do a lot to help young boys grow up to be socially functional males. One need only review prison populations and take a tally of parenting to see this to be the case. We males are born with a fairly flexible set of skills, and depend on the previous generation to help us adapt to social norms of the time. Teaching life skills through parenting and role modeling is part of our survival formula. If - God forbid - anarchy should reign one day, those necessary skill sets could perhaps be different. But they must be molded differently to function in our own society.
When you allow any peer in society to draw on that blank slate, you get social graffitti.
I think Dana's on the right track though. Any damn fool can father a child, but it takes great skills to be a father. It isn't easy tempering those blades into useful tools in society. And a young male does need a venue to display his tailfeathers. But SHOWING UP is a good start.
One last thing... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
While I believe crime does happen more often due to the increase in single parent homes, I frankly think the date rape thing has been going on all along. What has changed is the victim's willingness to report it because of society's improved understanding of prevalence, fault, and causality.I'm not overly surprised that date rape is happening and is happening more often.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited August 27, 2002).]
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Dana Sheets
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Comments Please
err...ahem....(I'm sorry but I can't resist)
Ian,
Would you please provide me with a list of peer-reviewed articles that demonstrates that there is a defacto reduction of sexual violence and domestic abuse rates among the Amish?
Ian,
Would you please provide me with a list of peer-reviewed articles that demonstrates that there is a defacto reduction of sexual violence and domestic abuse rates among the Amish?
-
Guest
Comments Please
Amish date rape? Pretty tough with the chaperone sitting there on the couch with you no?
Laird
Laird
Comments Please
I get the funnies but I do think Ian has a valid point. Question: Does Amish society condone corporal punishment? Perhaps a lot of violence (in general) stems from the fact that offenders are getting off too lightly and not being held responsible for their actions. Are rape and sexual assault the same thing? Goods points all, keep 'em coming!!! -
uechiwoman
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- Location: Silver Spring, MD
Comments Please
When I think of the Amish, what comes to mind are quilts, blackberry pie, and rolling fields. The Amish community is also a patriarchy with very well defined gender roles. Each person's role in the community is quite prescribed and respected. If a person cannot fit into the community and value the community needs over their individual needs they are out, no longer spoken to, shunned.
I see in date rape (and in most crime) the belief held by the raper that his current needs, wants, desires supersede the needs of his victim. Many men would love to have sex on a date, but what brings them to take it...making it a violent act against women? Do they go out with women (in the case of date rape) that they know they will have to force?
Heather
I see in date rape (and in most crime) the belief held by the raper that his current needs, wants, desires supersede the needs of his victim. Many men would love to have sex on a date, but what brings them to take it...making it a violent act against women? Do they go out with women (in the case of date rape) that they know they will have to force?
Heather
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Bill Glasheen
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Comments Please
Everyone loves a challenge, Heather. A certain degree of that is extremely healthy. Some of it is not.
We used to tease one of my sisters about a very bad trait of hers. She had (and still has) devastating good looks (was Miss Longwood in her senior year of college). She attracted a lot of male attention in her dating years. And she could do it "her way" <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would spend all my wages for the week,
all for a cuddle and a peck on the cheek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
However... She had a nasty habit of not liking guys that were too easy. We used to say "She won't like him; he's too nice." A guy would send her a dozen roses, and she wasn't interested. Meanwhile, she'd be dating a jerk.
Now mind you, she had a right to be choosy. However it was clear that - for a while - she blew off all men that weren't a challenge.
Fortunately she married a very nice guy.
Guys are the same way; they enjoy a challenge. Many women who have been on the "dating circuit" long enough know that.
In fact, it is human nature not to appreciate something you didn't have to work hard for. Teach karate for free, and people quit without blinking an eye. Charge something, and people stay. Go figure.
And so it is with "the chase." In my book, it is perfectly "normal" (maybe not healthy) for a young, immature buck to be on "the hunt" for the sheer sport of it. Young, immature women play with the young bucks. Being "easy" isn't a challenge. Conquering a difficult woman is more fun. For some, being "the first" is an especially grand trophy. C'est l'amour.
These games have rules. When someone violates the rules, then we have a problem. One of the rules is Thou shalt not force oneself upon a woman. That's not sport; that is rape. Sport is getting a woman to say yes - verbally or nonverbally. The latter (nonverbal) is a bit more fuzzy, but any reasonable person understands a nonverbal yes. In my book, there is an egregious offense that some women make when they tease men knowing they will eventually say no. But there are no laws against it. It's just plain mean, and very stupid.
Anyhow, I think this comes into play.
But I think there's an entirely different mindset that plays into this. Some men just plain feel entitled, regardless of what the woman says or wants. I'm sure what triggers that may be somewhat situational. Do such men seek out challenges? Do date rapists look to find someone who would say no and impose their will? Perhaps there are cases where "sport" turns to "unsportsmanlike conduct." And then perhaps there are other situations where the male is just totally void of empathy synapses. These are the sociopaths that walk among us.
Hope this adds to your thoughts, Heather.
- Bill
We used to tease one of my sisters about a very bad trait of hers. She had (and still has) devastating good looks (was Miss Longwood in her senior year of college). She attracted a lot of male attention in her dating years. And she could do it "her way" <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would spend all my wages for the week,
all for a cuddle and a peck on the cheek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
However... She had a nasty habit of not liking guys that were too easy. We used to say "She won't like him; he's too nice." A guy would send her a dozen roses, and she wasn't interested. Meanwhile, she'd be dating a jerk.
Now mind you, she had a right to be choosy. However it was clear that - for a while - she blew off all men that weren't a challenge.
Fortunately she married a very nice guy.
Guys are the same way; they enjoy a challenge. Many women who have been on the "dating circuit" long enough know that.
In fact, it is human nature not to appreciate something you didn't have to work hard for. Teach karate for free, and people quit without blinking an eye. Charge something, and people stay. Go figure.
And so it is with "the chase." In my book, it is perfectly "normal" (maybe not healthy) for a young, immature buck to be on "the hunt" for the sheer sport of it. Young, immature women play with the young bucks. Being "easy" isn't a challenge. Conquering a difficult woman is more fun. For some, being "the first" is an especially grand trophy. C'est l'amour.
These games have rules. When someone violates the rules, then we have a problem. One of the rules is Thou shalt not force oneself upon a woman. That's not sport; that is rape. Sport is getting a woman to say yes - verbally or nonverbally. The latter (nonverbal) is a bit more fuzzy, but any reasonable person understands a nonverbal yes. In my book, there is an egregious offense that some women make when they tease men knowing they will eventually say no. But there are no laws against it. It's just plain mean, and very stupid.
Anyhow, I think this comes into play.
But I think there's an entirely different mindset that plays into this. Some men just plain feel entitled, regardless of what the woman says or wants. I'm sure what triggers that may be somewhat situational. Do such men seek out challenges? Do date rapists look to find someone who would say no and impose their will? Perhaps there are cases where "sport" turns to "unsportsmanlike conduct." And then perhaps there are other situations where the male is just totally void of empathy synapses. These are the sociopaths that walk among us.
Hope this adds to your thoughts, Heather.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Comments Please
I might add two things to this...
From a sociobiological point of view, it is very smart for a male to pursue a "difficult" female. When it comes to making sure YOU were the father of "your children" and not the cuckold, then finding a "difficult" woman is a good thing. Getting another man to raise your children is...spreading your genes for free. This is part of the whole Madonna/whore thing for some men - sleep with easy women but marry a virgin.
Finally with STDs being what they are today, finding a "challenge" may be just plain healthy and smart.
- Bill
From a sociobiological point of view, it is very smart for a male to pursue a "difficult" female. When it comes to making sure YOU were the father of "your children" and not the cuckold, then finding a "difficult" woman is a good thing. Getting another man to raise your children is...spreading your genes for free. This is part of the whole Madonna/whore thing for some men - sleep with easy women but marry a virgin.
Finally with STDs being what they are today, finding a "challenge" may be just plain healthy and smart.
- Bill
