Are you an actor or a fighter?

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:37 pm

Hi Mike,

Hope all is well with you and family.When are coming back east?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

For every case where someone names a situation where a MA was "taken down" I can name a case where the reverse happened.

That is true. I think we are all in agreement that martial arts knowledge helps in defending oneself, despite all the hype to the contrary to stimulate controversy and introspection.

But don't you think that "situation where a MA was "taken down" is interesting to dissect?

Is it the martial art, the individual or both that set up the person for the "taken down" ?

If martial arts are so effective, then why do we have these "taken down" occurrences?

Why not 100% success?

------------------
Van Canna

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:31 pm

I've never even been in a schoolyard fight. Not one scuffle with anyone other than my brother - and that was just play stuff, not really fighting.

So I can't contribute to sharing experiences when I've used my training in a physical way. I can only hope that it is my attitude on the street or just plain luck that has kept the evil doers from selecting me.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know which way the numbers really fell? If we could really know if MArtists usually win a street conflict or if they usually lose? But those would be hard numbers to come by.
Dana

miked · Post by **miked** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:52 am

Van wrote:

"But don't you think that "situation where a MA was "taken down" is interesting to dissect?

Is it the martial art, the individual or both that set up the person for the "taken down" ?

If martial arts are so effective, then why do we have these "taken down" occurrences?

Why not 100% success?"

and

Dana wrote:

"Wouldn't it be nice if we could know which way the numbers really fell? If we could really know if MArtists usually win a street conflict or if they usually lose? But those would be hard numbers to come by."

Van,

In my opinion, nobody is perfect so one cannot expect 100% succes in every situation. Howver the odds are in favor of those who do train in MA vs. those who don't. I, for one, will take those odds and so have many others who have come out on top.

The late Forrest Sanborn told me once that "they can beat your body but don;t ever let them beat your spirit." Those words, when taken to heart, I believe, work to help achieve the success in the street that we should all strive to achieve.

Dana, I am very glad lad that you haven't had to put your skills "to the test". I'm sure that if the situation arises that you will be able to take care of yourself!

Are there any ladies who wish to share their real life success stories?

Please let us all know how you handled dangers outside of the dojo.

By sharing we all learn.

P.S. Van, I was in town for Nakamatsu's seminar with Jack Summers this past summer. I was hoping to see you there. Sorry that I missed you.

I'll be sure to come "knockin on your door" sometime next year.

Best regards,

Mike DeDonato

student · Post by **student** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 11:56 am

I am no lady.

But I have three examples of women whom I know defending themselves without any organized martial arts' training; just determination, outrage, and intelligence.

Example one:

A friend of mine was attacked on aa urban Michigan street by a rapist.

Truthfully, he may well have been the world's most inept rapist.

Did I mention that he knocked her down?

Did I mention that it was a rainy day?

Did I mention that he both straddled her and let her keep her umbrella?

Awwww...you guessed.

She drove her foot with great vim where it would do the most good (for her!); she jabbed his face with her umbrella. Repeatedly.

But her true class was shown when she chased him down the street, shouting the battle-cry for which she is still famous among her friends:

"COME BACK! I'M NOT THROUGH WITH YOU YET!!"

Example two:

A different friend, small, petite, still in high school, was being sexually harassed by a male student who considerably outweighed and outbulked her.

He was pleased finally to see her responding to his advances and coming near.

He was less pleased when he suddenly realized she had manueved him so that he was on the staircase, with his back to the staircase, on an upper-level floor...and she was in a perfect position to push him off.

And the look in her eyes made it absolutely clear she would if there was the slightest hint he would keep up his campaign.

She was not hassled by him again.

Example three:

Lee Darrow's first wife was a paralegal in Chicago. Lee was beginning his professional magic career and she had just bought him a small, orange lexan rod for a magic wand for his shtick.

The rod was in her hand and her purse was over her shoulder while waiting for the El train.

Along came a free-lance Socialist who attempted to redistribute her wealth by grabbing her arm, jerking, and grabbing the purse when it fell down.

Except that she clamped down on the wrist and twisted. With the aid of the wand torqueing his wrist, the would-be purse-snatcher did a somersault to which he added no grace and landed on the ground in front of her.

She looked at him solicitously (Damn, I can just see that look!), said: "Oh! I'm sorry!"

And calmly got on her train.

Epilogue #1

Wehn she told Lee - a Shorin-ryu San-Dan - what had happened, he wnet berserk.
("I'm going to tear apart Chicago 'til I find the %*&^$&)&>.)

{"Lee; it's cool. I'm not hurt....")

Of course, Lee couldn't and didn't find him.

Epilogue #2

Weeks later, Lee's first wife was waiting for the El train.

Along came a free-lance Socialist with a bandaged wrist...who looked at her, did a double-take, said "You're the &*(&^ that done broke my wrist," did a 180 degree turn, and split.

True stories, every one.

BTW, all three ladies know each other.

Shai Dorsai! (Praise in an inside-joke manner.)

Murray/student

[This message has been edited by student (edited October 15, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:46 pm

Hi Mike,

Sorry I missed you, but there’ll be other times.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

odds are in favor of those who do train in MA vs. those who don't.

Generally true.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

"they can beat your body but don’t ever let them beat your spirit."

This is on target. Combine spirit and martial arts knowledge and the odds go up.

But we know that there are “spirited” people without training who do better than some of the trained wannabes.

It usually comes down to the individual, in my experience.

I know some “trained” high-ranking “black belts” who couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, and some of them have proven that.

I’ll take one of those tough “North End” kids any day, over a trained martial artist.

------------------
Van Canna

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:35 pm

My friend, student, overlooked one of the funniest events of my life during that period.

At one time, I was strolling with my wife and a big, good ol' boy name of Bill Brown. We were confronted with four street toughs.

Bill, Becky and I were in SCA garb. Bill with a shield and broadsword, Becky with a little leather tunic outfit and a LOT of knives and me, in Kimono and hakama (diasho included - iai-to, not live shinken).

As the four toughs decided that they were going to try us out for a confrontation (chain, couple of switchblades and mean), Becky started jumping up and down (she was behind the two of us) cheerfully yelping "Can I have the one in the middle, can I? C'mon Sensei, can I! I want the one in the middle!" With a BIG grin. Like "I'm looking at a bowl of chocolate ice cream on a hot summer day grin!

The four toughs did a fast fade into the woodwork.

Excellent demonstration of an unexpected response screwing up the Bad Guys.

WHAT a Kodak Moment THAT was!

respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

student · Post by **student** » Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:
My friend, student, overlooked one of the funniest events of my life during that period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I haven't, either.

Cf my 14 February, 2002 response in this Forum on the thread Could This Happen?, also 26 April, 2002 Van Canna's Self-Defense Realities Forum, Mental Training, , or 13 September, 2002, again Van's Forum, What The F*

You know, I can only feed you straight lines so much, Lee....

Murray/student

And I told the story on Van's Forum in a thread labeled ...opportunities.

[This message has been edited by student (edited October 16, 2002).]

s f b · Post by **s f b** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

"I don't believe one can fight by taking karate lessons, I simply don't."

I'll strengthen that statement, Mike. One cannot learn how to fight by taking karate lessons.

Even "good" black belts get their ass whooped on their first fight if they've never done it before. Maybe second time, third time, etc...

These people of whom you speak, Mike, in my opinion used a new self-confidence, something that's been written on Van's forums that BGs run away from. The umbrella caper has more to do with the stupidity of the perp and the presence of mind of the victem more than anything else, and certainly not something learned from from doing a lot of kata and combinations.

If you say she learned it from a self-defense course, I'll tell you that a self-defense course teaches "tricks" and NOT how to fight. A self-defense course does attempt to plant the seed called "fighting back" which is entirely different from fighting. And if you battle me on this one, all we are doing is tossing the semantics around.

I've seen so many [can't write my favorite attribute words for pc reasons] in the dojo/dojang who have years experience and who would be squashed like a bug if they ever stepped into the street. Karate lessons, in my opinion, often cause the practitioner to be more dangerous to himself (A little knowledge...)

To reassert myself, I did not say karate is is valueless for a little self-defense, but to defend oneself a proper mindset is the main ingredient. And, what I did write was that karate does not teach one how to fight.

There are exceptions to the rule and one can say he was a good fighter because he takes karate, when in my opinion he was a good fighter all along and karate made him a little better.

------------------
Al Moulton at <a href="http://www.uechi-ryu.ws">Uechi-ryu Etcetera</a> Loves <a href="mailto:uechi@ixpres.com">email</a>

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 3:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I've seen so many [can't write my favorite attribute words for pc reasons] in the dojo/dojang who have years experience and who would be squashed like a bug if they ever stepped into the street. Karate lessons, in my opinion, often cause the practitioner to be more dangerous to himself (A little knowledge...)

We have seen this in Uechi as well over the last forty years. I personally have known a few “tough guys” big muscles; super conditioned, arms and legs of steel, good dojo/tournament fighters, who froze into punching bags in real fights.

Style and training are good up to a point, but if you are a wimp at heart, no training will ever save your ass.

When you come up against the mind numbing effect of malicious intent behind a serious weapon or a serious, determined big and fast adversary, you will find out very quickly what you are made of.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

There are exceptions to the rule and one can say he was a good fighter because he takes karate, when in my opinion he was a good fighter all along and karate made him a little better.

This is closer to truth you will ever see in cyber print anywhere. But denial is hard to beat.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed Oct 16, 2002 6:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by student:

No, I haven't, either.

Cf my 14 February, 2002 response in this Forum on the thread Could This Happen?, also 26 April, 2002 Van Canna's Self-Defense Realities Forum, Mental Training, , or 13 September, 2002, again Van's Forum, What The F*

You know, I can only feed you straight lines so much, Lee....

Murray/student<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I thought you TKD guys preferred CURVED lines! I know I do!

Chuckling,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Akil Todd Harvey · Post by **Akil Todd Harvey** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:22 pm

Greetings all,

Does Karate prepare us to be fighters?

It does. Karate teaches us not only to fight well, it teaches us how to break someone's arm who is attacking us. I feel confident that I could, if necessary, utilizing my karate skills, take the life of someone who is threatening my life.
Most of realize, however, that the fight aint over until the proscutor and the courts get their shot at you. You have not the legal right to take someone's life just 'cuz they want to take your wallet by force or insulted your girl or your man-hood (women can be so much smarter than men).

In the back of your head, the trained karate person knows that the average run of the mill altercation is not life threatening and thus Martial (war like) responses are overblown. On the other hand, your ego may be hurt. You might have something to prove to yourself or others about the viability of that art you spent so long studying. Short of killing the BG or performing other life-altering actions, you trade blows and thrash about trying to be the victor and not the victim.

Why don't karateka have 100 % success in fights?

Simple mathematics. Let us assume that there are two combatants. Each has a 50% chance of winning, all other things being equal (which they usually are not). Your odds of success in a fight may be less than 50% if you consider the possibility that there could be two losers in a fight and not just one. It is quite possible for both combatants in a fight to be injured.

The karate dude might have more experience and should have a greater chance of success.

On the other hand, the BG might only instigate a fight when they percieve their odds as being favorable.

The BG's seek to stack the deck (increasing their odds and decreasing yours) by using weapons when you have none, by sneaking up on you (surpirse) or by outnumbering you.

Awareness training (frequently overlooked or undervalued in some Karate schools) can teach the Karate dudettes how not to get snuck up upon (and thus giving better chances of success).

Karate probably did not teach me to be a great fighter and I probably will never be one. I spent over ten years learning how to hurt people, learning how to topple them over, break their bones, and to take their life if necessary.

At present, I am focusing my energies to learn how to heal people using the eastern traditions. It is not so much that I am abandoning the martial arts, I am not. I do, however, get greater satisfaction from healing than from hurting.

I do find myself occasionally falling into the trap that says "karate people should be great fighters". The expectation of martial artists in greater society is that we ought to be able to win every fight.

I have been in two fights in my life and I "Lost" both of them. I got "black eyes" both times and the other dudes went without scratches. The biggest damage was to my ego, though. Wasn't I supposed to win? I was the black belt. I knew more about theory and technique than either of them (the two streetfighters probably had more in the clinch experience, though).

Although I weigh less than 160, I was jumped by a 300 pound (17 year old) from South Boston (and his gang of smaller toughs). If I had won against the 17 year old, what would have been the legal ramifications, especially if I had done serious physical damage. Quite often, when you win, you may lose.

The other fight I lost (in south Boston, of course) was against a guy inebriated to the extreme. he was so intoxicated that I percieved him to be not a threat. Before I realized it, he swung at me and made good contact. Within milliseconds, I had distanced myself such that neither of us could connect further blows. Withou turning my back to the guy, I gave myself greater and greater distance, while maintaining the various fighting postures. Many would call that running away. I was rather embarrassed myself. Looking back, though, there is value in not fighting outside a South Boston pub. brawl long enough in front of the pub and his buddies might soon join in (not on my side).

Discretion, they say, is the better part of valor. "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run".

It took a long time to realize that I had done better than I thought. When I was punched in the face, I did not go down. If I had been knocked down, I could have easily recieved a lot more blows (kicks as well as punches). Although I did not run away with my tail between my legs(pretty close), I did make a hasty retreat and got out of there rather quickly. Cowardice it might have been, but that may have saved me from meeting the various friends of the original BG.

Post by **gmattson** » Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:53 pm

Good points Harvey, and honestly described.

Your belief (although belated) that you came out of the fights as a "winner", simply because you survived, is important. As Van Sensei points out, people don't take defeat lightly and often let the defeat eat away their ego years after the original blows.

I feel we should not give people the impression that "winning" is only accomplished by destroying your opponent.

We have learned a lot about fighting in the past 40+ years and I'm sure will continue to learn more. I sense that your two fights taught you a lot more about yourself than 10 years of karate could. On the other hand, your 10 years of training just might have made you realize that "backing off" with just a couple of black eyes, was the smartest course of action.

------------------
GEM

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
I've never even been in a schoolyard fight. Not one scuffle with anyone other than my brother - and that was just play stuff, not really fighting.

So I can't contribute to sharing experiences when I've used my training in a physical way. I can only hope that it is my attitude on the street or just plain luck that has kept the evil doers from selecting me.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could know which way the numbers really fell? If we could really know if MArtists usually win a street conflict or if they usually lose? But those would be hard numbers to come by.
Dana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dana-Sensei,

You have just defined what my Sensei used to call "The Highest Application of Martial Art:" how NOT to fight.

The real key to self defense is in making sure things never go physical, but being prepared in case they do.

It's pretty obvious to me that you embody the Highest Principle pretty well.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

suede · Post by **suede** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:55 am

i see martial art as a form of exercise... to keep fit..and learn some knowledge that could be helpful when attacked.

Akil Todd Harvey · Post by **Akil Todd Harvey** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:27 am

I hope living in the land of actors has not affected my view of fighters....