Perceptions

Jackie Olsen · Post by **Jackie Olsen** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:54 pm

I read this quote on the European Edition of USA Today concerning the sniper events: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is an Americanization of Europe," said Dominique Moisi, deputy director of the Institute of International Relations in Paris.

"We're becoming very violent, too, and there is an Americanization of violence. It is us becoming you."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand the perceptions of America = violence. Anyone really paying attention to world news can see there is violence in every country (sad). And, with the recent Moscow hostage situation, it is not just Americans.

The article went on to talk about the European's fascination with our cops/robber crime TV shows and our leniency concerning gun ownership. They feel our focus is too much on violence.

What do you think? Does this opinion have substance? Does the Old West mentality (i.e., gunslingers) still pervade our culture?

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:17 pm

The American Gunslinger stereotype is alive and well in the international press.

If you take the major events of the past year -- we were attacked by terrorists and then started a firefight in the host country.

One of our own just went on a rampage with a rifle.

More times than not our president (no matter who it is) is drawn as a cowboy in newpaper editorial cartoons.

Our place as the gunslingers of the world is firmly entrenched.

Given our current foreign policy -- how can it be anything else?

Dana

Valkenar · Post by **Valkenar** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jackie Olsen:
What do you think? Does this opinion have substance? Does the Old West mentality (i.e., gunslingers) still pervade our culture?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that yes, America has a very violent culture. There are many contributing factors, but the fact that we have exceedingly high rates of violent crime is a pretty solid indicator. And in my opinion it has less to do with the obvious influences, like the media, and more to do with the some of our basic ideals. The wild welst gunslinger attitude is one aspect. Generally, the "every man for himself" attitude is a large part of it I think.

It does seem that many Americans are positively salivating for a chance to commit some violent act of righteous justice.

Anyone happen to see Bowling for Columbine?

RA Miller · Post by **RA Miller** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:22 am

But is that bad?

You can look at the stereo-type as one of violence, but the prototypical American/pioneer/cowboy was primarily self-sufficient: Depending as little as possible on others for food, medicine AND defense.

I think Americans recognize an individual responsibility to take care of one's problems by yourself before calling for assistance/government/mommy.

I see a huge difference in what I percieve as the European attitude of dependence, that problems are the responsibility of the government... opposed to the American ideal.

Maybe the "Americanization of Europe" is really a movement toward individual freedom and responsibility. If that is true, it gives me some hope.

Honestly, it has always depressed me when politicians used Europe or Japan or the "industrialized West" as comparitors and tried to influence the people towards that model without pointing out the very basic freedoms that are restricted in those countries.

Rory

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 1:23 pm

I think the world at large is homogenizing. This, in turn, contributes to the clashes between cultures that we are seeing alot more of these days. These clashes take violent combat form as well as economic and political form. The global economy is very free market oriented. There is no central control. Even the US has some central control. The competetive nature of a free market economy is fierce. People's attitudes must necessarily become a little meaner. The people that become marginalized by their failure to be competitive are more desperate. Personal survival becomes less assured.

I have always enjoyed visiting Europe. It seemed so much more relaxed and people oriented. Good food and the time to enjoy it. A sense that these people have been here doing these things since the beginning of time and their perspective has more historical weight to it. But then there is the yang to that yin: Lots of vacation time (mandated by the Government). Universal medical coverage (government again) meaning high taxes and faltering productivity.

With the end of the Cold War there is more instability. The kids from the mean streets are playing on the same field as the ones from the nice neighborhoods. The games are tougher and meaner now.

Americans would do well to get back to their gunslinger/frontier roots.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

s f b · Post by **s f b** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 11:14 pm

What!!! Moisi is famous for writing wierd stuff. I remember an essay from her entitles something like "Austrians are the Japanese of Europe." That one in particular was a frappin land mine. Bubba's essays contain truths mixed with garbage.

One should dither in one's own backyard before messing with others'.

------------------
Allen Moulton at Uechi-ryu Etcetera loves email at <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ixpres.com">uechi@ixpres.com</A>

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:18 pm

Jackie Olsen-Sensei,

Maybe it's a combination of things, both real and perceived, that led to this conclusion.

America actually publishes its crime rates and loudly bemoans the "violent" culture that we have. Many other countries, with far higher crime and violence rates, don't.

Anyone looking at the Middle East, Serbia, Bosnia and Russia with the same scales applied to violent criminal acts would actually be stunned at how safe and peaceful the US of A really is. Malaysia, the Phillipeans, Thailand and Morrocco also come to mind. Don't even get me started on Iran & Iraq.

Hollywood contributes to this stereotype, IMPO, as does overblown yellow journalism through history. Mention Chicago to anyone in Europe and you get: "Gangsters! AH AH AH AH!" with pointing fingers mimicking a Tommy gun. A falsehood these days if ever there was one.

But our TV shows are riddled with violence, even our news shows focus on the violence, but compared to Palestine, forinstance, we're as safe as if we were in church - in Milwaukee - comparatively speaking.

Strangely, we also focus on crime stopping shows an awful lot - America's Most Wanted, The New Detectives, Cold Case Mysteries, all contribute to the notion that we are a culture steeped in violence.

Add the WIld West images (which many worldwide believe to still be in practice today) and the idea that we are a bunch of gun totin' maniacs.

The USA doesn't have bombs going off on every street corner, snipers around every bush and muggers waiting to kidnap people into slavery (yes, that still occurs in a number of countries, worldwide). One can't say that of many Middle Eastern nations or North African ones, for that matter, either.

On a per capita basis, the US is still one of the safest countries on earth. Not perfect, by any means, but a heckuva lot safer than a whole bunch of other places that gripe about the American "culture of violence."

Maybe it's time to start working on changing that stereotype in the public eye.

I mean, honestly, does anyone really think Hong Kong is populated by a bunch of kung-fu crazies who can tear someone'w heart out with their bare hands?

It's all in how one perceives something. I hope.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

student · Post by **student** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:
I mean, honestly, does anyone really think Hong Kong is populated by a bunch of kung-fu crazies who can tear someone'w heart out with their bare hands?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT?!?!

You mean it ISN'T?!?!?!?

Sigh.
There goes another illusion....

Murray/student

Jackie Olsen · Post by **Jackie Olsen** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:48 pm

Great replies everyone. I would hope that the "Americanization" of Europe means individual responsibility towards each other, and that worldwide we work on changing stereotypes ... no matter what the culture. Violence permeates every nation, unfortunately. Subscribe to hotspots for a month and you'll see what I mean: http://www.airsecurity.com/hotspots.htm

I think the grim truth is to accept that violence did not begin in the Americas, nor will it end here. I think that American intervention has been pre-ordained since we became a "superpower". The world cries "deliver us from evil" ... the impossible ... and make sure you don't stir up any hard feelings while doing so."

So we get pegged as the bad guys ... trying to fight wars without offending millions.

Jackie

[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited October 28, 2002).]

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jackie Olsen:
Great replies everyone. I would hope that the "Americanization" of Europe means individual responsibility towards each other, and that worldwide we work on changing stereotypes ... no matter what the culture. Violence permeates every nation, unfortunately. Subscribe to hotspots for a month and you'll see what I mean: http://www.airsecurity.com/hotspots.htm

I think the grim truth is to accept that violence did not begin in the Americas, nor will it end here. I think that American intervention has been pre-ordained since we became a "superpower". The world cries "deliver us from evil" ... the impossible ... and make sure you don't stir up any hard feelings while doing so."

So we get pegged as the bad guys ... trying to fight wars without offending millions.

Jackie

[This message has been edited by Jackie Olsen (edited October 28, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the risk of getting slammed for being politically incorrect, one could also hope that the Americanizing of Europe would lead to the French discovering deodorant, especially as the World Health Organization pointed out that the French use 40% less soap than Americans do as well.

Whew!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

French use 40% less soap than Americans do as well.

LOL..

But the French women always smell good, why is that I wonder..

------------------
Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited October 28, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:22 pm

And what is the difference between objectifying "the french" and objectifying "french women" and objectifying "violent americans?"

Dana

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:41 pm

Very good Dana..for a moment I thought I was reading a post by Ian..

Reminds me of something I read <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If a man can buy a professional's sexual services for a nominal sum, then what incentive does he have, beyond non-sexual reasons, to commit his life-time earnings to support a wife? Why should he buy the proverbial cow if he can buy the proverbial milk by the quart?

This poses a significant threat to "liberated" women because, were prostitution both legal and socially acceptable, they would have to compete on some basis other than sex.

Pragmatically, pop-feminists can't accept that. Philosophically, however, it is repugnant to them because it condones the sexual objectification of women. In their ideology, objectifying men as walking wallets is natural, objectifying women is not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Women objectify themselves as sex objects. (Intercourse, Andrea Dworkin, p 140) They also objectify others. (Women & Love, St. Martin's Press mass market edition, 1989, Shere Hite, p 129) From childhood, women seek status through affiliation by objectifying one another as status-objects: "(G)irls get status by being friends with high-status girls: the cheerleaders, the pretty ones, the ones who are popular with boys." (You Just Don't Understand, Ballantine Books Edition, June 1991, Deborah Tannen, Ph.D., p 107)
As adults, they objectify men as success objects.

The means for impressing other women. (Women Vs. Women, Tara Roth Madden, p 155) Effectively, they use men to tell one another, "Here is my man: with him, I buy cars, clothes, entertainment, vacations, trips to the beauty parlor and, if I'm so inclined, motherhood or early retirement."

The consequences of this are devastating:
The consequences of turning women into sex objects include rape; the consequences of turning men into success objects includes war. -- Why Men Are The Way They Are, Berkley edition/September 1988, Warren Farrell, Ph.D., p 251

Most women know most men see them as sex objects, and most women agree this is bad. But when confronted with how they objectify men, they deny it, pointing to surveys that prove they value a good sense of humor above money, and sensitivity and kindness above power.

But most men know they can be kind, caring, loving and sensitive, and while these characteristics may earn them the status of "just friends" with many women, their many women friends would never consider having sex with them.

Men know the more money, status, prestige and power they have, the more willing most women will be to give them love and sex. Most men have always known this, but few realize the connection between how women objectify them, and female hostility toward men.

Women's increasing independence, combined with how they objectify men as walking wallets, is the reason for much of their hostility toward men: The monetary basis for their "love" for men is gone.

What remains is the resentment they feel toward most men for being unable to fulfill their need for "walking wallets."

When men realize this, how will they feel? Will they resent it? Will male hostility toward women grow to match female hostility toward men? That depends.

In response to the feminist movement, many men gave up objectifying women as sex objects to look to the deeper beauty that grows with time. Women must do this, too. They must stop objectifying men and embrace the equality they say they want. It's the only way to stem the tide of resentment men will otherwise feel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is much confusion in people’s minds today about the appreciating of female pulchritude, and the “objectifying” of women.

How would we classify the typical Miss America contest?

------------------
Van Canna

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:03 am

Someone just sent me this, must be pissed off at this thread <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Europe you can -
legally smoke marijuana
legally visit a prostitute or get hardcore porn on cable
the statutory ages and ages for drinking are much lower as well

You don't have a lot of these fundamentalist type laws in Europe , and people are more open about their sexuality.

They also get several weeks vacation every year, secure jobs, nice long lunches.
Yaa, it's a real hell over there.

Much better to be in the US being targeted by terrorists, crazed snipers, getting laid off and putting up with a lot of BS by feminist hags.

They also live with their parents until they're 30.

I read something the other day about Americans being worried about their culture being "dumbed down".
It struck me that was akin to worrying about getting water wet.

Fools. We now have the best art and the best wine. You can keep the cheese as a substitute for your hideous women.

You people are just safe in your stupidity. Too dumb to wake up.

That would make America a brash street hooker. Flashily clothed, reeking of some cheap scent and making sassy comments.

Food?? Wine??? Have you ever had a Chateau Lafitte? OK, the Japs make better cars than you do; the Germans make better cars too. The only decent car name you have been a British one that Ford bought.

Your food is for **** compared to Europe. The "wine" is something a German or Frenchman might use as anti-freeze, and your collective IQ wouldn't get you a job as a road sweeper. Americans ******.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Much better to be in the US being targeted by terrorists, crazed snipers, getting laid off and putting up with a lot of BS by feminist hags.

Terrorists: S/He doesn't remember the bombing of Harrah's Dept. Store, or the Red Brigade Kidnappings in Italy.

And tell the people of Northern Ireland they don't have to put up with "terrorism".

Crazed snipers: And of course, there are no shootings in all of Europe

getting laid off: Want to compare unemployment in Europe to the US?

putting up with a lot of BS by feminist hags: What's the matter? Can't stand women standing up for themselves?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I read something the other day about Americans being worried about their culture being "dumbed down".

And how many, exactly, Nobel Prize winners were European this year, compared to the US? And the award is a European Award.

That's ok, though. Enjoy your xenophobic mysogeny, and we'll just wait for next time a paranoid European megalomaniac tries to take over the world...

Gene

[This message has been edited by Gene DeMambro (edited October 29, 2002).]