Perceptions

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:49 am

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Van Canna

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 5:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
And what is the difference between objectifying "the french" and objectifying "french women" and objectifying "violent americans?"

Dana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point(s) taken. And apologies to any I may have offended.

Rationalizations:

One is a joke (mine) - regarding the French, but based on World Health Organization statistics. - meant tongue in cheek

One is appreciating physical beauty for what that beauty is. - At least I THINK that's what the post meant.

One is objectifying a myth. Americans are usually only violent in response to an attack. See the last several wars for a partial proof of that (Viet Nam excepted, of course).

Maybe I should shut up now...

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

[This message has been edited by LeeDarrow (edited October 29, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:16 am

I find the whole discussion rather amusing in so many ways. Thanks - I needed the laugh.

I have one interesting anecdote along these lines. Take a typical R-rated movie in the U.S., and put it on television. It's loaded with violence, and censored on the sex. Now take the same movie and go to German T.V. There the violence gets edited out, but we get a major bootie call.

I dunno... That anonymous, ranting European makes me glad I'm here living my comfortable lifestyle while he's tries to rationalize his existence while his economy (and likely his standard of living) *****. However, there really are times when the Europeans have it right.

In the end, it's silly to be so provincial, no matter what side of the pond you call home.

- Bill

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:14 am

I don't think that there is an Americanisation of Europe......there is a huge culture difference certainly, between America and England, that becomes readily apparent when I read these forums, in so many ways as well. I read once on an American Tour guide of England that Americans should regard the English as Europeans who just happen to speak English. The problem is ( with the exception of Tony Blair) that most English do not regard themselves as Europeans. I think if we were to become another state of the united states...the majority of us would be far happier, than being part of a European superstate.
as to other things, some things that you take issue with we don't and vice versa. If I lived in America and somebody said that I couldn't have a gun...but that the constitution says that I have a right to bear arms I think I would be pretty annoyed, I don't like people moving the goal lines without consulting me first. In England it is not a major issue, we cannot have guns. Which is both bad and good. there are no guns......so the badguys are out there with old obsolete saturdaynight specials...and the cops have regularly upgraded latest offerings from Browning, or Heckler and kotch, which is ok in my eyes. Living standards are different...you have a heck of a lot more than we do, really, even when we see the Trailer trash on Springer their lifestyle doesn't look to bad compared to what we get here.....sometimes it looks positively luxurious. Holidays in the U.K. I think we have a lot more than you do ( we have the least in Europe) as a Government employee with over 10 years service I get 6 weeks plus national holidays. I have just had a hip replacement done on the "national Health" ( what my taxes go on) it cost me nothing, though the operation excluding hospital stay would have cost me $12,000 aprox.
As to the wine.......I love red wine and my favourite comes from America, either Californian or further south to Chile or Argentina.
This is my first venture onto this forum.....hope I haven't offended anyone ( that is another English trait we always apologise.......favourite English word is "sorry" )

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:20 pm

By the way, it causes me no amount of amusement to ponder someone from Paris equating an increase in violence with something American. When you consider France's military and economic "prowess" in Europe since Napoleon lost the war, I guess any amount of spine would seem relatively "violent."

Thank you. When you consider the alternative, I'll gladly don the stereotype.

Be afraid. Be veeerrry afraid!

- Bill

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:22 pm

Van Canna Sensei,

My comments are interspersed, with my traditional ** to show where I am writing. Needless to say, the original person who posted this ... material ... needs educating.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Someone just sent me this, must be pissed off at this thread <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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In Europe you can -
legally smoke marijuana
**and get heroin on the government dole in some countries - they STILL have higher drug abuse statistics than here and higher overdose rates (Source, World Health Organization)
legally visit a prostitute or get hardcore porn on cable
**and a higher rate of AIDS and other "social diseases" than here.
the statutory ages and ages for drinking are much lower as well
With considerably higher rates of alcoholism and deaths from alcohol related traffic incidents.
You don't have a lot of these fundamentalist type laws in Europe , and people are more open about their sexuality.

They also get several weeks vacation every year, secure jobs, nice long lunches.
Yaa, it's a real hell over there.

**Especially when thetax rates can run to 50% (Denmark), the economy is not often as good (some exceptions) and jobs are harder to come by.

Much better to be in the US being targeted by terrorists, crazed snipers, getting laid off and putting up with a lot of BS by feminist hags.

** Like in every other European city? Red Guard, Islamic Front and the like? The bombs are going off over there on a VERY regular basis (see the news). Here, such is NOT the case.

They also live with their parents until they're 30.

**Now THAT says something. I'll let the reader decide just what!

I read something the other day about Americans being worried about their culture being "dumbed down".
It struck me that was akin to worrying about getting water wet.

**Which is why we keep winning Nobel Prizes, leading the world in technological development, medicine and the other hard sciences? Laughable.

Fools. We now have the best art and the best wine. You can keep the cheese as a substitute for your hideous women.

**Again, US wines keep winning international contests with a disturbing regularity and the French government has BANNED the importation of US wines because of their popularity IN France! Straw man argument.

You people are just safe in your stupidity. Too dumb to wake up.

That would make America a brash street hooker. Flashily clothed, reeking of some cheap scent and making sassy comments.

Food?? Wine??? Have you ever had a Chateau Lafitte? OK, the Japs make better cars than you do; the Germans make better cars too. The only decent car name you have been a British one that Ford bought.

**I have had Chateau Lafite Rothschilde in five differing vintages. It IS excellent, but a Champaigne does NOT a culture make. German and Japanese cars are still based on AMERICAN design norms, using AMERICAN patented part designs and are, essentially imitations (to some extent) of the American technologies that go into them. Straw man argument, again.

Your food is for **** compared to Europe. The "wine" is something a German or Frenchman might use as anti-freeze, and your collective IQ wouldn't get you a job as a road sweeper. Americans ******.

**Right - NOT! That's why we keep winning the wine contests, worldwide, keep winning Nobel Prizes and keep leading the technology front.

Sounds to me like this guy is simply bitter.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:22 pm

Fun thread.

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:24 pm

jorvik

Your facts are correct. If it weren't for U.S. horticultural techniques and their own genetic varieties, "French" grapes would have gone the way of the American Elm and Chestnut.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Fossil studies show that wine has been cultivated in Europe for at least 6000 years, until the disastrous effects of phylloxera, the dreaded Grape Blight, destroyed most of the French vines in the last half of the 19th century. FORTUNATELY the infant US wine industry had unaffected vines that originally came from the blighted areas. The hardier, disease-resistant American vines were grafted onto the surviving French vines resulting in new varieties, now considered among some of the best in the World.

- http://www.editechconsulting.com/wiines.html

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:49 pm

Hmmm - so there's still a healthy dose of nationalism and competition between "The Old World" and "The colonies"

Do we have the same feelings of competition against other continents? Asia, Oceania, Africa, South America, Antartica?

Do we hold these biases against the "people" of a nation - that faceless mass. Or do maintain a little bit of bias for each person we meet who may come from "one of those other places"?

When does nationalism transition into xenophobia?

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:22 pm

Seen on a T-shirt, worn by a Professor of Plate Techtonics (the study of the geologic plates that the various land masses are a part of):

REUNITE GONDWANALAND!

Which is the name for the original land mass that broke apart and became the continents we know know.

I always liked that shirt.

With tongue in cheek,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 7:30 pm

Dana-Sensei,

On a serious note, for a change (at least from me the last few days)... comments interspersed with my usual ** to denote where I'm posting...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
Hmmm - so there's still a healthy dose of nationalism and competition between "The Old World" and "The colonies"

Do we have the same feelings of competition against other continents? Asia, Oceania, Africa, South America, Antartica?

** Well, considering the lack of aparent cohesion in Asia, South America and Africa, I would venture to say that there is little of that kind of emotion. Also, the quote targeted Western European countries and their presumed attitudes.

Do we hold these biases against the "people" of a nation - that faceless mass. Or do maintain a little bit of bias for each person we meet who may come from "one of those other places"?

** In my case, I hold such attitudes for governments, not individuals. I remember someone in a novel saying something like "I will dislike them in general, while loving them indivdually." While the first does not necessarily hold true for me, the second certainly does. In the Platonic sense, not in a sexual one.

When does nationalism transition into xenophobia?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

** When nationalism is driven by government or other demogogues for the furtherance of a political or personal agenda that works to the detriment of all concerned, perhaps?

** I am looking at some of the sabre-rattling coming from the White House and am wondering whether this is nationalsim being driven to xenophobia.

** I remember the MacArthy Years and the idea of a reply scares the pogees out of me.

** But so does someone setting off a suitcase nuke in my back yard...

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:02 pm

It's human nature to be competitive and root for your own. As far as I am concerned, folks that choose to go to UNC are misguided aliens and mutants.

And while we're at it, the Yankees ****** too! A little competition is a good thing. A little team spirit generates excitement.

Ultranationalism and xenophobia that gravitates to violence is unfortunately not just an East vs. West thing. Europe alone has quite a history, even in the most recent century (e.g. Yugoslavia). And then there's the whole middle east thing...

Politics is politics. Politicians themselves are a different breed, often preying on opportunity as opposed to leading by vision and character.

It's human nature to hate "those people" and love the "individuals" we meet. Perhaps there's a message there.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 31, 2002).]

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:52 am

quote
"Your food is for **** compared to Europe. The "wine" is something a German or Frenchman might use as anti-freeze, and your collective IQ wouldn't get you a job as a road sweeper. Americans ******."

As to wine.......I'm not completly sure of my facts here ( maybe somebody else can verify this)....but as I understand it grape vines were taken to California at the beginning of the last century so that California could produce wine.....unfortunately the french vines were hit by a blight, and to get back their vines they had to re-import them back to France from California.
So this means that the really best wines, produced by the best grapes.....are actually produced in U.S.A.