I know we will not change anyone's opinion regarding Sifu Mooney's lin kong jing abilities by exchanging posts here on Bill's forum. I've asked for suggestions on how we can create a test or series of tests, enabling those who are interested, to understand more about what he does. I'm not interested in embarrassing Rich or in blindly accepting what he does as real. I believe the post by Randi describing the TV test was fair and impartial. I accept the fact that the "healer" was not successful in passing the test.
The enclosed letter from Dr. Bouton doesn't prove anything either, but it focuses on another element of this subject that we might consider as part of our test.
We should proceed with healthy skepticism, but not with personal attacks. Lets focus on the subject at hand. . . Creation of a test or series of tests that will help us understand what Rich claims he can do, that may or may not relate to the martial arts.
Rich If jd wants to contact someone concerning me, then he should contact Dr. Charles Bouton, an OB/GYN and a FORMER associate of randi, and also a magician. he can be reached at photiusb@aol.com which is new and only valid address I believe.
Once again I post this from him: read and enjoy - then contact him yourself:
From obgcgb@ttuhsc.edu Mon Jul 28 09:31:54 1997
*********************************************
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:31:54 -0500
To: <tuite@bluegate.com>
From: obgcgb@ttuhsc.edu
Subject: DSI South Convention
**Snip of information***
Rich Mooney then stepped in for a session. Sifu Mooney proceeded to do in the class room what he had been doing since the start of the convention the previous night, demonstrating his lin kong jing abilities. Now for the
clincher, I was there as a plant to see if Mooney was on the level. Most of this took place before his classroom session. Sifu Mooney was in an adjoining room on the previous night demonstrating his lin kong jing ability primarily by one method, the swaying motion of an individual. Now as a psychologist and medical type individual, I am very aware of some natural phenomenae that could account for this swaying. Mooney's methodology was to have someone stand, feet close together, relax, and generally eyes closed. Mooney would make a number of motions (looking sort of abracadabaraish) and as the person swayed front to back, Mooney appeared
to move in harmony with this guy, thus claiming to cause the sway. He would do the same thing with a number of people in a line, each placing their hands on the shoulders of the one in front. Of course in the line the sway was more dramatic.
Well all humans have a harmonic type of wave motion when they stand with their feet together and relaxed. Put them in a line and the action of the ones attached to them joins their own motion and you get a dramatic effect.
No chi, just physics and physiology. Mooney also demonstrated swaying through a door, with his subject with their back to the door to demonstrate it wasn't a visual key. I was not impressed. Again the normal harmonic swaying would occur whether Mooney was there or not.
This is not , however, to say that Sifu Mooney was having no effect on the subject. But a more advanced type of investigation was necessary to determine if Sifu Mooney would have an effect. I was finally chosen as a
subject. Sifu Mooney placed me with my back to him and began to do his thing. I lightly rooted. This would greatly limit my normal harmonic swaying, while still allowing me to remain relaxed. I also kept my eyes open and focused on a point in the room. Again this would reduce my unconscious swaying motion. If Sifu Mooney could indeed have an influence
with his chi abilities to effect me, I would be able to tell this.
Well after nearly a minute of little or no motion, Mooney starts to tell the watching crowd that this was an example of a negative" effect.
Apparently, what little swaying motion I had was exactly opposite of Sifu Mooney's motions. That explaination also didn't impress me. After many years as a performing magician, I too had learned to take credit for, and indicate to my audience that things that happened , which I didn't expect to happen, did happen because I intended for them to, and took the credit.
Yet, there was one unrefutable thing. While I was standing still, with my back to Sifu Mooney. I felt a force litterally reach into my abdomen and start to push and pull my intestines and stomach. It was making me a
little queezy. I didn't say much about it when Sifu Mooney finished his negative reaction speech, but said something to the effect of, "that seemed to make me a little queezy, kind of like something was pushing my gut around. Mooney came over immediately and said he would "wash me down", and passed his hands along either side of my torso, and in a few seconds my stomach was again very settled and calm.
Sifu Mooney next began to do a line demonstration, and to my surprise, picked me to be the front person in the line. The others lined up behind me placing their hands on the shoulders of the one in front. Sifu Mooney began his motions, and I felt the harmonic movement begin in the line behind me, I rooted hard. I had no movement. Even the guy behind me, with his hands pushing and pulling on my shoulders was not budging me even a fraction of an inch, but otherwise I appeared relaxed. As the line's sway increased, Sifu Mooney warned me not to resist. In the next instant, I had to stop him, the same stomach action had been taking place in me again, it had been increasing in intensity, and I was about to toss my cookies on Sifu Mooney and on Mr. Tucker's floor. Sifu Mooney again obliged and settled my stomach with his healing action. I was definately impressed. I have studiend with internal stylists before, including chinese Hsing I sifus's. I knew that if Sifu Mooney's lin kong jin ability was anything
more than a parlor trick, it would have had a peculiar internal effect on me. It definitly did. I also had four individuals attending the seminar with me from the American Karate Black Belt Association High Dan Board.
You could not find four greater skeptics in your life. These were men who fought back in the Texas Blood and Guts bare knuckle days of the 60's. Who had 30+ years in karate each, and who weren't going to be impressed by parlor tricks. Not to mention that a couple of them did not believe in chi of any form, especially healing forms.
One had a sever shoulder injury several months ago. He is approximately 60 years old, and the injury wasn't healing. He has seen physicians, has been receiving physical therapy, and it was looking more and more like a torn rotator cuff, which would require surgery. I went and got him and brought him to Sifu Mooney. Mooney knew immediately what his problem was, even before it was explained. He put his hands on either side of the subject's shoulder, no touching, in a few seconds the subject who had been rambling away about how he got the injury, suddently began to say, "Hey, I'm feeling a lot of heat in there." While Mooney wasn't able to totally heal the injury. His subject in a few seconds was moving his arm in a much larger range of motion than he had previously been able to move it, felt much less pain. In fact he was able to sleep through the night for the first time in a long time. A second treatment the next morning enabled the
subject to do all the very physical technique practices during the day.
Something his shoulder would not have previously permitted him to do. Even on the way to the airport on Sunday morning, the subject could not believe how good his shoulder now felt.
I also presented a second subject, who has had a chronic neck pain for over 25 years, that medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic had failed to relieve. Sifu Mooney, again without knowing what the ailment or injury was, quickly diagnosed it, again moved his hands around the effected area, without touching, in a few seconds, the subject was pain free and able to revolve his head and neck through the full range of motion, completely pain free. This was something he could not do for the past 25 years. Did it last? Well Sunday when he got on the plane it was still working.
Charles G. Bouton, Ph.D.
Administrator
Dept. Ob/Gyn
Texas Tech Univ. HSC
Lubbock, TX
Test II
Moderator: Available
-
Mike Sigman
Test II
J.D. aka Dr. X wrote:
>I have also made clear the fuitility of >piecemeal construction of "tests" which, >while
sincere, will prove >incomplete and inconclusive. Supporters will >claim success; skeptics
will claim failure or >fraud. Nothing shall be solved.
Just for grins, let me offer you something else to think about.
Within Chinese studies, over generations, has developed a focus on what we might normally term "feelings". The generational studies were done by intelligent people and some interesting things arose. One of the interesting things has to do with the trained ability to effect some change on another person's perceptions and this affecting of others is referred to as "wai qi", external qi, or "emitted qi". The effect has to do with qigong abilities and was not, until fairly recent times, correlated with abilities in martial areas.
Essentially there are few things to take note of:
1. Our own "feelings can be enhanced.
2. Another person CAN affect those feelings if we are expectantly searching for it (whether consciously or unconsciously).
3. With practice, a practitioner can detect more about his own feelings and the feelings of another. There seems to be a form of field effect phenomenon at work.
4. There is a certain and discernible amount of suggestibility that affects the outcome of these things. Without the suggestibility factor, success ratios would be markedly diminished, although not eradicated.
Just some opinion.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
>I have also made clear the fuitility of >piecemeal construction of "tests" which, >while
sincere, will prove >incomplete and inconclusive. Supporters will >claim success; skeptics
will claim failure or >fraud. Nothing shall be solved.
Just for grins, let me offer you something else to think about.
Within Chinese studies, over generations, has developed a focus on what we might normally term "feelings". The generational studies were done by intelligent people and some interesting things arose. One of the interesting things has to do with the trained ability to effect some change on another person's perceptions and this affecting of others is referred to as "wai qi", external qi, or "emitted qi". The effect has to do with qigong abilities and was not, until fairly recent times, correlated with abilities in martial areas.
Essentially there are few things to take note of:
1. Our own "feelings can be enhanced.
2. Another person CAN affect those feelings if we are expectantly searching for it (whether consciously or unconsciously).
3. With practice, a practitioner can detect more about his own feelings and the feelings of another. There seems to be a form of field effect phenomenon at work.
4. There is a certain and discernible amount of suggestibility that affects the outcome of these things. Without the suggestibility factor, success ratios would be markedly diminished, although not eradicated.
Just some opinion.
Regards,
Mike Sigman
-
Rick Wilson
Test II
To All:
Boy oh boy such excitement. I tried to find a previous post that described exactly what Sifu Mooney claimed would be the "positive" result of a test. This is what I found (posted December 1, 1998 by Sensei Mattson on the Kyusho forum under the thread Sifu Mooney/Camp '99):
"This is what will constitute a positive result: The subject(s) will move as my motion moves them. They will either move forward as I push forward, or backward as I pull backwards. Another result will also be a positive result If I pull and they pull away, or if I push and they push against.
This will constitute a negative result: They don't move at all. Period."
I have some problems with this. As the gentleman, Dr. Charles Bouton, quoted by Sifu Mooney stated:
"Now as a psychologist and medical type individual, I am very aware of some natural phenomena that could account for this swaying ... Well all humans have a harmonic type of wave motion when they stand with their feet together and relaxed. Put them in a line and the action of the ones attached to them joins their own motion and you get a dramatic effect ... No chi, just physics and physiology."
This is correct. Just try standing with your feet together and relax. You will begin to sway. Try anyone and they will begin to sway. So no movement is not likely to be a possibility. Sifu Mooney states that a positive effect is "They will either move forward as I push forward, or backward as I pull backwards. Another result will also be a positive result If I pull and they pull away, or if I push and they push against." Aren't those two the only possibilities possible for the " natural phenomena"?
So right away I have some problems with what will be determined a positive result because either of the "positive" options are the only results possible and do not prove any effect.
So let us begin there. Having people standing, feet together, relaxing is out! How else can this be done.
Sifu Mooney also suggested that he:
"I will do the test with 10 groups of 10 people (100 total)
6 out of ten positive results will be sufficient for the groups of ten."
I would suggest we leave groups out due to one suggestive person screwing up everything.
"I will do another test with 25 people singly
15 of of 25 positive results will be sufficient for the single individuals.
I will do the test from behind a door or a wall. They will not see me, or know if I am there. An appropriate marker will be placed so I know exactly where the line or person is in front of me, beyond my sight."
This out of sight idea I like.
"The test will be done (or should be done, as I do appreciate input) with the person or persons standing relaxed with their weight evenly balanced on both feet. Knees will be slightly bent. They will be of a neutral mindset."
Again I cannot accept the positioning, because the offered "positive" results take credit for any movement and there will be movement. If the ability exists it should be able to be done in any position. I seem to remember an article in KARATE INTERNATIONAL where Sifu Mooney recommended using empty force to misdirected a hand holding a gun before disarming him. Such a recommendation implies that empty force will work on an unwilling participant. (I don't throw any away so I could go through my piles to find it if this is doubted.) We could work with unwilling people, or just settle for a different, proper position that does not generate a natural movement. That way if there is movement then there must be a cause. (I have to be honest though and say I have a problem that this "empty force" has no direction to it. Perhaps Sifu Mooney can explain why that would be.)
Sifu Mooney continues:
" . . . . (Regarding the tests) Randi. If he wants to direct you or JD in the specifics, that is fine with me. . ."
Sounds like Sifu Mooney is willing to have Mr. Randi involved. Perhaps we should ask his advise on the positioning and a test based on the premise that Sifu Mooney can move people.
Rick
P.S. To ward off any posts, no offence was intended to Sifu Mooney. I have said before that he seems very willing to be tested. We are merely discussing a proper test base.
Boy oh boy such excitement. I tried to find a previous post that described exactly what Sifu Mooney claimed would be the "positive" result of a test. This is what I found (posted December 1, 1998 by Sensei Mattson on the Kyusho forum under the thread Sifu Mooney/Camp '99):
"This is what will constitute a positive result: The subject(s) will move as my motion moves them. They will either move forward as I push forward, or backward as I pull backwards. Another result will also be a positive result If I pull and they pull away, or if I push and they push against.
This will constitute a negative result: They don't move at all. Period."
I have some problems with this. As the gentleman, Dr. Charles Bouton, quoted by Sifu Mooney stated:
"Now as a psychologist and medical type individual, I am very aware of some natural phenomena that could account for this swaying ... Well all humans have a harmonic type of wave motion when they stand with their feet together and relaxed. Put them in a line and the action of the ones attached to them joins their own motion and you get a dramatic effect ... No chi, just physics and physiology."
This is correct. Just try standing with your feet together and relax. You will begin to sway. Try anyone and they will begin to sway. So no movement is not likely to be a possibility. Sifu Mooney states that a positive effect is "They will either move forward as I push forward, or backward as I pull backwards. Another result will also be a positive result If I pull and they pull away, or if I push and they push against." Aren't those two the only possibilities possible for the " natural phenomena"?
So right away I have some problems with what will be determined a positive result because either of the "positive" options are the only results possible and do not prove any effect.
So let us begin there. Having people standing, feet together, relaxing is out! How else can this be done.
Sifu Mooney also suggested that he:
"I will do the test with 10 groups of 10 people (100 total)
6 out of ten positive results will be sufficient for the groups of ten."
I would suggest we leave groups out due to one suggestive person screwing up everything.
"I will do another test with 25 people singly
15 of of 25 positive results will be sufficient for the single individuals.
I will do the test from behind a door or a wall. They will not see me, or know if I am there. An appropriate marker will be placed so I know exactly where the line or person is in front of me, beyond my sight."
This out of sight idea I like.
"The test will be done (or should be done, as I do appreciate input) with the person or persons standing relaxed with their weight evenly balanced on both feet. Knees will be slightly bent. They will be of a neutral mindset."
Again I cannot accept the positioning, because the offered "positive" results take credit for any movement and there will be movement. If the ability exists it should be able to be done in any position. I seem to remember an article in KARATE INTERNATIONAL where Sifu Mooney recommended using empty force to misdirected a hand holding a gun before disarming him. Such a recommendation implies that empty force will work on an unwilling participant. (I don't throw any away so I could go through my piles to find it if this is doubted.) We could work with unwilling people, or just settle for a different, proper position that does not generate a natural movement. That way if there is movement then there must be a cause. (I have to be honest though and say I have a problem that this "empty force" has no direction to it. Perhaps Sifu Mooney can explain why that would be.)
Sifu Mooney continues:
" . . . . (Regarding the tests) Randi. If he wants to direct you or JD in the specifics, that is fine with me. . ."
Sounds like Sifu Mooney is willing to have Mr. Randi involved. Perhaps we should ask his advise on the positioning and a test based on the premise that Sifu Mooney can move people.
Rick
P.S. To ward off any posts, no offence was intended to Sifu Mooney. I have said before that he seems very willing to be tested. We are merely discussing a proper test base.
-
Mike Sigman
Test II
Dr. X writes:
With regards to "feelings," Alanis Morisette consistently and reproducibly generates feelings of severe gastrointestinal distress. Apparently, she can record her negative chi and transmit it to her victims through CDs and over the airways.
***************************************
Well, I get your point, but if you listen to her, then your "feelings" are even more dulled than mine. :^)
Aside from that, I'm trying to explain to you what Mooney does. He uses a variant of a very unusual phenomenon and one which I have yet to fully put a finger on. "Field Effect" is the closest that I can come.
I can show you how to do this thing. With a little training, most people can do it. It's made into a big deal by some people, but it seems to be a natural phenomenon. I have to admit that the first time I encountered it I was flabbergasted (being the sceptical engineer type that I am).
But there does seem to be a method of causing a sensation over a small distance (I'm speaking casually; there's a bit more to this). I can do it. You can do it. If you practice it a lot (which Mooney probably does) then you can cause "sensation" somewhat more strongly. It is part of qigong studies.
My best comment is that it is a little-known phenomenon and one which suggestibility seems to enhance, but it is a limited phenomenon. By "limited", I mean in the same sense that body heat is limited... it is an interesting phenomenon, but we can't practice in solitude to the point that we can project heat rays with our mentally focussed body heat.
What Mooney does is exhibit the general phenomenon to people who have never encountered it before.
Since I am leaving these discussions, let me say that I will be available to discuss what I can that might be helpful in regard to testing Mooney, but you will have to use my private email.
mikesigman@earthlink.net
Regards,
Mike Sigman
With regards to "feelings," Alanis Morisette consistently and reproducibly generates feelings of severe gastrointestinal distress. Apparently, she can record her negative chi and transmit it to her victims through CDs and over the airways.
***************************************
Well, I get your point, but if you listen to her, then your "feelings" are even more dulled than mine. :^)
Aside from that, I'm trying to explain to you what Mooney does. He uses a variant of a very unusual phenomenon and one which I have yet to fully put a finger on. "Field Effect" is the closest that I can come.
I can show you how to do this thing. With a little training, most people can do it. It's made into a big deal by some people, but it seems to be a natural phenomenon. I have to admit that the first time I encountered it I was flabbergasted (being the sceptical engineer type that I am).
But there does seem to be a method of causing a sensation over a small distance (I'm speaking casually; there's a bit more to this). I can do it. You can do it. If you practice it a lot (which Mooney probably does) then you can cause "sensation" somewhat more strongly. It is part of qigong studies.
My best comment is that it is a little-known phenomenon and one which suggestibility seems to enhance, but it is a limited phenomenon. By "limited", I mean in the same sense that body heat is limited... it is an interesting phenomenon, but we can't practice in solitude to the point that we can project heat rays with our mentally focussed body heat.
What Mooney does is exhibit the general phenomenon to people who have never encountered it before.
Since I am leaving these discussions, let me say that I will be available to discuss what I can that might be helpful in regard to testing Mooney, but you will have to use my private email.
mikesigman@earthlink.net
Regards,
Mike Sigman
