by Mike Sigman » Mon Dec 28, 1998 10:56 pm
Bill writes:
(snip peripherals)
OK. Let me give a quick statement so you'll know where some of my too-blunt diplomacy comes from.
Granted there is a certain amount of almost *required* gamesmanship in many martial discussions, maybe I should stipulate that my inclination is to always avoid the ritual, pomp, role-playing, pecking-order, etc., and cut right to the interesting part: How To Do Something Useful. I am interested in the arts, not the teachers, not the organizations, not the whacko's,... nothing but the chase. I will not brag to anyone and I will only tolerate a small amount of brags by other people before I lose interest. I enjoy martial artists who are truly enthusiastic and working on their art; I avoid people who use their martial art as a social artifice or to compensate for real or imagined deficiencies. :^) Fair enough?
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I have great respect for master Shinjo. However I
will tell you something that we often use here where I work. I have a
management/research position at Trigon Blue Cross Blue Shield. There are about 50 or
so independent Blue Cross Blue Shield plans. We have a saying here - if you've seen
one Blue Cross plan, you've seen one Blue Cross plan. From what I know of the Uechi
vs Shinjo vs Tomoyose lines vs what I have seen from the area that Kanbun studied, I
can safely say that you got one very narrow view of our style. No big deal and no
insult meant. Good thing you studied from someone of consequence! But Shinjo is
Shinjo. If you ever walked into Nakamatsu's dojo down the road, I can tell you you'd
think it was a different style.
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OK. These things go without saying and I don't argue or care, rest assured. I don't take offense in arguments of topic, BTW, only when they get personal. Say anything you want to make a point in discussion without worrying about giving offense.
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But don't judge Uechi ryu from your very good
but quite narrow experience.
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Well, would you accept the position that my experience covers a lot of years and therefore I've viewed and participated in many things? In other words I don't think you make a good point stressing my narrow view, even though I see your point. It's just not the case.
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And I studied "a very little" bit of Yang-style Tai Chi. Did the "short form" for a few
years and actually taught it for a while. I've done a bit of push hands. I've also done
and taught some aikido. I have seen and heard some of both the comments and
attitudes that you conveyed. Nothing new to me there.
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This is probably where I would take a stand. The overwhelming amount of Taiji and Aikido is simply done using a normal mode of strength. Yet there are plenty of giveaways in the available writings, if you have nothing else, that such should not be the case. In other words, you're saying you know Taiji and Aikido, and, based on my wide experience, I'd be *willing to make a bet* (this is a phrase I use to entice people to look just under the pretext of giving them a chance to show me as wrong) that you don't really know how to use the peculiar form of strength associated with Taiji and Aikido. Would you make that bet? Are you sure that you understand that form and strength and you can demonstrate it? This is the key to where the discussions are going wrong on this list... too many of the people seem to be completely sure that they know what I'm saying and they're rejecting it without saying what any of us on the Neijia list would say, "I don't think so, but maybe it's worth a look". :^)
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I agree that there's something special here, but I've never seen it as being extraordinary or
incompatible with what I've seen among "some" in the Uechiryu community.
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Again, this is the crux of the matter. I'd suggest that given what Taiji and Aikido you've seen there IS no difference, just as you state. I agree completely. What I'm saying is that most of the available Taiji and Aikido is simply external movement and technique which varies but little from the form of strength that you'd use in Uechi. I don't quarrel at all that what you've seen is consequentially no different in all probability.
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You should
reserve your comments until you have met some of the gentlemen (Mott, Campbell,
etc) that frequent our style. If I'm not mistaken Mr. Campbell has more years in
practice of Chinese systems and actual time in China than many have who claim to be
"experts". And he also happens to do "a little" bit of Uechi ryu. I find the boundaries
that many suggest to be arbitrary, inaccurate, and irrelevant.
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OK, fine. You've seen my argument. I specialize in this form of strength and I'm aware how uncommon it is, even in China. You're suggesting that people you know must know some of it and I'm suggesting that it's improbable, based on my experience with Uechi and other external martial arts. That's the discussion as it stands, wouldn't you agree?
And of course, the obverse of your caution is that your style and the style of the above-named gentlemen is Uechi-Ryu, derived from elements of southern Shaolin. What I do is Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc., and I've focused on those things for a number of years. I don't teach. I don't have an organization. I don't even have my own webpage. I do give workshops around the world, but those are simply to show enthusiasts how to do unusual and powerful things, as they originally were looking for when they came into the internal arts… but I only do workshops when I feel like it; I don't do them for a living. So I take your admonition that I should meet some of these gentlemen, and if I saw conversation that led me to believe they knew and were interested in the internal martial arts, I might make the effort. I might suggest that next year they go see one of the Chen-style big dogs like Chen Zheng Lei, Chen You Ze, Chen Xiao Wang, etc., etc. It might be something new for them. Honest.
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Do not judge so quickly, Mr. Sigman.
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Well, we have a saying on the Neijia list. IHTBS... which means "It Has To Be Shown". Of course, with my pixieish sense of humor, when I run into a person or group who is absolutely sure that they have a grip on what internal strength means, I like to make small wagers just for fun. I've been through this before and one of the things I'm trying to get some of you to do is *consider* the possibility that there might be something you haven't encountered before and that you can't just analyze and dismiss things based on the terms that you hear. :^) So no… I don't fully make offhand judgements based simply on some egomaniacal belief that I am a genius and know all about the martial arts. I always take a look, if something appears to be promising.
So.... back to square one. Just consider this post from the point of view that my intentions are basically good.
Second, consider that I may possibly know something about this (not claiming to be the world's expert) and that I indeed know and understand (and largely agree) when you say that most styles have great commonalities at core. I can show this unusual way of doing things fairly quickly and I have worked with some instructor-level people in your organization; they do indeed utilize what would be considered an external mode of power.
IF, you will consider that those things MAY be true in my argument, then you will see that I simply gave the best possible advice… the tools of Taiji may not be of any particular help to people doing Uechi Ryu because the mode of strength is different. You have to accept that I may be telling you the truth and was simply telling you that you'd be doing the same thing as the Aikido that is done with nominally the same techniques and strategies as O-Sensei's Aikido, but without the core strength that is unique to that art.
Lastly, in response to Dr. X's commentary, let me simply say that the mode of internal strength involves learning to manipulate a ground vector strength as opposed to making yourself a solid platform and using normal power. The problems with ANY description though will boil down to someone interpretting that description as "Oh, we do that, too". In other words, It Has To Be Shown. But once you learn how to do this thing, such phrases as "use your dantien", "sink your qi", "use the mind intent", etc., become obvious directions in this kind of strength and not vaguely reassuring catchphrases.
I hope that I've been helpfully clear.
Regards,
Mike Sigman