Shut up and train

[Bill Glasheen]

I've been following the threads below about mushin, zanshin, aesthetics, etc with no particular desire to join in as I really wanted to "shut up and listen".

But after having been a lurker for a while and then meditating on these ideas a bit, I thought it possibly apropos to comment on a particular aspect of the arguements from a personal perspective.

When I were a younger lad and had but a few years of training under my colored belt, I always wondered what it took to meditate like the Transendental Meditation folks (pseudo yoga) and the yoga crowd. And I wanted to understand this concept of "walking meditation". All along as I began to teach I was besieged with folks who wanted to know if I taught the "mental stuff". Yea, THAT stuff - the majic that Caine of the Kung Fu series would do when he practiced inside the sacred walls of Shaolin or overcame some severe obstacle that always seemed to come his way about once a week.

There are a few comedic lines that have seered themselves in my brain, and take on meanings that are broader than the original intent. One of them is from the late, great Flip Wilson. In one of his early, raunch-era albums, he tells one of his classic stories about a knight by the name of Over Knight. He starts off by telling how bad the story is. It's a terrible story! As he says (in a way that only he can say it), "It's one of those things that creeps up on you later, like them Fruit-o-the-Loom shorts."

Hmmmm....let's start off by assuming this has nothing to do with the "fashion statements" joked about by some (long, inside story), or pictured on pages 109, 343, and 424 of Uechiryu Karatedo by Mattson.

What I'm trying to say in a very convoluted and indirect way is that things like these rarely come to you by just talking about them or wishing they would come. What is necessary is 1) a process, and then 2) practice, 3) practice, 4) practice.......ad nauseum. In my experience, so many of these things that some attribute to majic and tofu are actually byproducts of a body doing what it is good at doing - finding an easy way to do things you do all the time. I truly believe it is an adaptive mechanism that made it easier for the human creature to do boring or critical things that ensured survival.

I know I'm treading on unfamiliar territory and may anger the neuro gods in our midst by explaining, but then that's never stopped me before. Besides, I think He's still contemplating his navel after the latest Uma overload.

It seems that our brains have many ways of doing the same tasks. First time through we may do the task with near perfection, but it often requires much conscious thought. We are operating in the "R&D" or ad hoc portion of our brain. The more we do these things, the more our brain "hard wires" (via creating synaptic patterns) these tasks. The more these tasks are hard wired, the more we can do them without "thinking about them". For you computer jocks, it's like the difference between writing a program to do some mathematical computations vs using a coprocessor chip. But wishing zanchin or mushin to happen will not make it happen. In fact the harder we try and the more we concentrate, the more elusive the outcome. We just keep kicking ourselves back into ad hoc mode.

Shut up and train!

My experience is rarely one where I am training and suddenly experience divine inspiration. Rather I find that I occasionally look where I am in a journey, and suddenly realize that I have arrived at one of my desired locations. "Creeps up on you!!"

I don't know, maybe Flip Wilson knew George Mattson before he did that early album.

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 03-05-99).]

[Robb in Sacramento]

Dr. Bill:

Wasn't it some hockey guy (apologies to hockey fans, we just didn't play it growing up on the frozen windswept ponds of Sacramento) who observed the secret of his success was practice, practice, practice. Not to mention the famous joke about the tourist asking for directions to Carnegie Hall, and being told the way to get there was by practice, practice, practice.

Dr. X's observation that we should just shut up and train is a good one. The difficulty we Americans have had, however, is picking a person to upon whom we can pattern our practice. As we practice for a bit, say a week or two or a thousand, we begin to recognize the unique physical, mental and spiritual tools we brought with us when we first started training, and how our training has helped devlop and hone these tools, provided we have focused upon a course that fits us.

As to having insight...I find the kata inspiring. Call me crazy, or I will, but doing Seisan under a full moon over and over and over again, is both a rush and usually a learning experience. When I taught, one of my students once commented that he had always wondered where I got those wonderful tricks I was showing them in class. Then one day, he realized, the tricks were coming from the kata.

How do we recognize the tricks? Flash of insight? Alien communication? Contact from the spirit world? Maybe. But I think we get it by just shutting up and training, and we get it by practice, practice, practice ...

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[The Editor]

We found this scrawled on a notepad:

"I think one of the better books I was forced to read as a lad was The Contender. The boxing couch tells the protagonist that, 'it's the climbing that makes the man, the prize is just the icing on the cake.'

"Indeed, there are no short-cuts to training. With perserverence, dedication, courage, and honor, we can maintain the purity of our precious bodily fluids."

--J.D.

We are still trying to work out that last line.--Ed.

[This message has been edited by The Editor (edited 03-05-99).]

[miked]

Uh Bill,

If we all just shut up and trained there would be no forum participants. Then what would you do? Personally, I would rather not go back to all-night "bull" sessions with maniacal brain surgeons who would rather be drumming with Mick, Keith and the boys or pontificating about ecclesiology!

Later,

Mike

[The Editor]

We found this in fingerpaint:

"Mike D" [It is crossed out and a "frowny face" painted next to it.--Ed.]

"It is not ecclesiology (sic); it is textual criticism! Gibbon is not a monkey and act as one not or I will start commenting about your hair."

--The Editor

[Drew Doolin]

Robb asked.."How do we recognize the tricks? Flash of insight? Alien communication? Contact from the spirit world?" - The short answer to this question is an important one -- you recognize what is "in" the kata by being told and shown by your Sensei! There shouldn't be "secrets", but there are "hidden" application that needs to be explained. Often, I fear, few really know what is "in" the kata. [You can easily tell this by watching their kata performance. I went to a tournement yesterday here on Okinawa and saw maybe 5% of the participants in the open hand division who had a clue as to what they were doing, beyond gross motor skills and memory (and a few a bit shaky here). (Some kata done at this superficial level look more like dance than karate)]. The answer to all your questions should be with your Sensei or as you go up the "chain of command"; your Association head. The buck stops there. The depth of your understanding should not come to you simply through practice, it has to be handed down. -- 2 more cents-- "Perfect practice makes perfect" an important distinction.
"SHUT UP AND TRAIN" is a great moto as it pertains to the thread Bill started on political rifts. All of us from different Uechi Associations need to "Shut up and Train" together because we might just learn something, or have something explained in a completely different and insightful way. By "shutting up" we might be more open to "hear" what is being said, or "see" what is being shown. "Shutting up" doesn't mean that you can't ask "why?" and expect to get a meaningful answer. It does mean, I think, that we should be less eager to say "that's NOT the way I was taught" or "that's wrong". And, with that, I will "Shut up and sign off"
D2

[maurice richard libby]

Drew-san,

Actually, I don't quite agree with you. Obviously we must learn from our teachers, but to really understand kata, to really see what is inside it, one must delve deeply into the kata on one's own.

You take it apart and put it back together again. Even studying history helps. I remember having a minor satori about a Shotokan kata by seeing a video of a jujutsu demonstration. The bunkai of a movement that made no sense otherwise became clear as glass when I changed the gestalt. Similarly, a move in Kanshiwa made perfect sense after watched a Dim Mak tape by Erle Montague, (and it was a pretty "gross motor skills" interpretation, too.

You really understand a kata when you make it your own, and you make it your own by your own explorations. Anything goes because, as a Shotokan teacher once said to me, "Kata is encyclopedia."

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw

[This message has been edited by maurice richard libby (edited 03-07-99).]

[Rick Wilson]

Going to jump in with Maurice here on this one Drew. I agree that your Sensei is a guide and a wonderful source of knowledge, but I must disagree with limiting ourselves to your statements: "recognize what is "in" the kata by being told and shown by your Sensei" or "The answer to all your questions should be with your Sensei or as you go up the "chain of command"; your Association head." Maybe it seems that way early on in our training, but this to me suggests that we cannot, or are not free to, think and create. That just cannot be. We learn by doing and experiencing and experimenting. I prefer my Sensei to be a guide to lead me into my own understanding and to keep me on my desired path. But I think about what I am doing ,and how to improve it ,and apply it all the time.

Why would you limit yourself to one perspective? The martial arts is such a vast topic that there is no way one person can know and understand it all. We are lucky when our Sensei's do the same and continue to learn and grow and teach. However, we may look in different directions. As Maurice said we can learn from other sources many things about our style that our Sensei may not have had the time or opportunity to.

From my own perspective I hope that my students share what ever they learn with me.

From another perspective I have made some of my greatest leaps in understanding Saturday mornings when a few black belt friends and I get together to kick the hell out of each other and come up with better ways to do it.

From another, I do indeed learn a great deal from my teacher.

However, seeing people not "think" about their karate for themselves always bothers me.

I agree with you completely that some people have no true understanding of what they are doing in kata, however, I think it is because they don't think about it for themselves.

Just my personal opinion, feel free to tear it apart.


Peace,


Rick

[Drew Doolin]

Maurice/Rick,
Thanks for your comments. Just a few clarifying points: I certainly wasn't suggesting that we don't think about our karate, on the contrary. What I was suggesting, however, is that our Sensei (in my case Breyette Sensei) should pass down at least one interpretation of the "how's and whys" for all that we do that comes directly from the association head (Toyama Sensei, in my case) so that all association members have the same understanding. If we simply pick an interpretation of our own choosing, we aren't practicing the association's style any longer, we are practicing our "own style" [aka "Drew-Ryu, loosely based in Uechi-Ryu Zankai".] To me, the folks who don't show understanding in their kata shouldn't be thought of as "non-thinkers"; I would bet they were never told what it is they are trying to do. And even further, I would bet that if you asked other members of their assocation for an interpretation, you wouldn't hear the same answer twice. Seemingly, what you have then is not one style, but simply many many interpretations of the original association style, sharing administrative duties. Experimentation, thinking, asking questions, cross-training, is all good and should be encouraged. But when it is all said and done, if you have a style and have an association, then everyone should have a common understanding. This is not a pursuit of approximates. Uechi-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu and others are taught the way they are taught for a particular reason. I just want to know and understand what the seniors in my association say is why and how, not be left to my own devices to "fill in the blanks". Toyama Sensei fills in the blanks; in my opinion that's what association heads do.
D2

[Robb in Sacramento]

Drew:

Just when I was going to jump in and pick on you too, you raise a very interesting question: what is style?

It seems from your post, that to you style manifests itself in application, and that without shared application we are practicing different styles. I had never looked at style this way before. To me, style emanates from the shared study of a common core of information. How one applies this information, seems to me to be an individual choice. We may all be from the impressionest school, but if I'm Monet and you're Manet, how we apply the techniques of this school will differ.

As to reliance upon ones teacher for an understanding of the kata, I tend to view this as learning to read. I rely upon my teacher to teach me the fundamentals of reading and reading comprehension. Over the course of my life, however, I cannot rely upon my teacher to interpret what read. If my teacher has been successful, I will be able to gain my own insight into what read.

The kata has no fixed meaning. The kata evolve. The kata take on the imprints and characteristics of those who practice them. For better, or for worse, how one practices the kata today is unlikely to be how one will practice the kata tomorrow. What one views as the ultimate application of a technique today may be the penultimate application tommorow, and an amusing or embarassing recollection next year.

What is style though? I will have to put on my bell bottoms, tie dyes, and a Grateful Dead record and contemplate this.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[JOHN THURSTON]

Drew San:

Please say helloe to Sensei Gordi for me and indicate that I did post the explanation of the Okikukai patch that he had written before he associated with Toyama Sensei's (traditional Uechi Ryu) ZAnkai on Sensei Campbells forum.

I understand that Toyama Sensei teaches a very fluid version of Sanchin and Uechi generally. I hope that you all will give feedback to us on this intriguing interpretation from one of Kanbun Sensei's direct students.

JOHN T


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[Bill Glasheen]

What a fascinating evolution of a thread. Sort of like the way karate evolves!

I think it's fair to say that Drew is in the younger years of his karate practice. Basically if you haven't been practicing for at least a decade, then generally you can't be expected to delve heavily within to find answers. Why do that, when so many of the answers are readily available from a good teacher.

But....Give a person a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a person to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. Academically speaking I was very lucky to be sent to some good schools in my day. I can remember my history class at Exeter (a New England high school). We didn't have a text for my American History class. WHAT??? That's right. We didn't have a text for the class. There were several on reserve in the library so we could pick up the basics ourselves. Instead we spent the year reading primary and secondary references from the period of time being studied, and then had discussions about them in class. We were expected to pick up the textbook knowledge on our own - on our own time. WHY???? Well the truth is that when the umbilical chord is cut, most will never consider history again. THIS approach was designed to teach people how to continue to learn once they got on their own. Did it work in my case? Actually I can tell you that I hated history until after I took this class. Then I noticed that I began to voraciously read periodicals. First it was mindless stuff like Time Magazine. Over time though my tastes broaded. And I'm a damned engineer! I'm not supposed to be able to read and write (and I've got executive privlege here, so J.D.'s editor doesn't talk back).

On the one hand, it's great to have a reference secondary to Kanbun himself. If I had the opportunity, I would indeed pick any great master's brain dry. But I can tell you for sure that, while I would shut up, listen, and learn while in the presence of such an authority, it would never stop the process already going on inside. In references I've read about Uechi Kanbun (Mattson's interviews with Uechi Kanei), my understanding is that Kanbun was a person of few words. I remember reading how his son said he spent much time teaching the kata but little time teaching interpretations. And that is NOT a bad thing!

I can remeber in the first decade of practice feeling very much the way Drew felt. In fact I can remember approaching Tomoyose sensei and asking him how COULD the Okinawans be so different in their practice from one to the next. Tomoyose sensei smiled at me, and tried to explain. It did not sink in; I think there was a language barrier. Fifteen years later I remember myself asking that question and now I feel a good deal of embarassment over it. I guess I shouldn't though.

I don't spend ALL my time looking within. Au contraire, I spent an hour a weekend ago quizzing one of MY OWN STUDENTS who came to visit and work out with me. We went over all the kata. Sean Griffin and a few others are great. A decade after going off into karate sunset, they make papa feel good by asking him to "check their kata", even though people like Sean are well down the road of their own journeys and teaching on their own. But the truth is that I spent as much asking Sean to explain and justify why he was doing certain things as I spent reviewing and correcting the mechanics of his form.
It seems I taught this person well - I taught him to think for himself. I often used the method of first asking a student what THEY thought a particular move meant. Years later I am now receiving as much as I give.

When Marty Dow left the Kadena dojo for America, Shinjo Seiyu told him "Your dojo will be your laboratory and your students your lab rats." Once you've had the opportunity to go through about a thousand or so different people with unique body sizes, shapes ages and dispositions, you quickly get over the idea of a "standard" or "official" way of applying anything. Then the true depth and breadth of an artform becomes readily apparent.

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 03-07-99).]

[Bill Glasheen]

I must admit that some may have misunderstood my view of the title of this thread, and the idea that I was putting forth. That's OK, though. The discussion that came forth was just as interesting, if not more so.

What I was commenting on was the phenomena that occur when you are in a discovery process for something that cannot be either easily measured or explained. When I'm in the weight room, I get pretty accurate AND precise feedback for my efforts. And my body has an amazing ability to reproduce it's limits (regrettably) from workout to workout. Those marginal gains after years of training are very hard to come by. But I KNOW when I make gains. I can quantify it in terms of sets and repetitions of specific exercises.

But many things in life don't come that easy. Asking someone to train hard to achieve mushin is almost an oxymoron. First of all, words don't readily communicate what the heck IT is. I find it fascinating that, after I have finally developed my own personal understanding, I can glaze the eyes of students asking questions about it almost as easily as my own eyes glazed over when I was searching for this elusive goal. It's a bit like that kid's toy that you put on your fingers and then try to pull the fingers apart. The harder you pull the fingers away from each other, the more it grabs on. And with mushin, you can't even see progress so easily as you can see when you figure out how to get this contraption off the fingers.

And the solution? As I said before, some things only come when you discover them on your own. Yes, PERFECT practice DOES make perfect, But you still have to do the time. No matter how great the teacher, many things do not come at all until you experience them yourself.

When did I discover I understood mushin? I guess it was a series of events that validated my journey. For instance I remember one day about 3 years into my Uechi practice where some stacked boxes fell over in a laboratory where I worked when I was walking by them. That FEELING I got....I'll never forget it. I remember thinking that for the first time since I started studying karate, I would have a NEW way of responding if the bad guy jumped out of the bushes in a surprise attack. And the response would not be one of fear. It was as if I was a detached witness to my actions. Another time about a decade later I can remember coming into work (a different lab, a different line of work) when I had been puking my guts out all night before from a viral illness. We had one more experiment to go, and the cardiology fellow I worked with had to be on call for a long time after that day. I could not take a sick day. I can remember cauterizing my way into the chest and thinking how much it made me want to puke that day.

Then I got into the open heart surgery. This part required my special attention. I did not drink caffeinated beverages on experiment days. Well about 10 minutes into the difficult part of the protocol, my nausea started to disappear. I was still running a 102 degree fever and I was wrapped in triple scrubs that day. But I suddenly started to feel much, much better. I commented about this to Dr. Keller, the cardiology fellow who was assisting me. Being an active athlete himself (rugby), he immediately understood.

"Zen mind," he joked. "You have learned your lesson well, grasshopper!" But both he and I knew that he was not far off the mark.

[Robb in Sacramento]

Dr. Bill:

I guess that's why they are called threads...they are contained with the same exactitude as a thread of cloth. Oh, and that teaching to fish stuff, may I add, if you show them how to get to Fishermans' Wharf, they may not find North Beach (San Francisco humor, sorry).

I don't know Drew, but I appreciate his post and his perspective. I don't know how long he has been training, but I have encountered many folks who have been training for some time who seem to share his view on relying upon ones instructor for insight. And, there are some, OK many, instructors who find this position welcome. Unfortunately, there are few instructors upon whom such reliance should be bestowed. I believe Drew is fortunate to be training with a person who has earned not only his respect and trust as an instructor, but who is also held in high regard and esteem by all those who have had the honor and priviledge of meeting him.

Perhaps, if I were in Drew's position, I would adopt Drew's approach.

What deeply disturbs me about this thread, however, is the thought anyone would attempt San Chin in Kiss boots. If we are going heavy metal, its gotta be with the originators of the genre. So put away the Kiss, and get out your Iron Butterfly, because true insight into San Chin only comes from unraveling the mystery of Inagottadeveda. (Or, in the alternative, snag the Chambers Brothers, and see if you can get through a San Chin will Time Has Come Today is blasting through your eight track.)

Peace.
Robb in Sacramento

[Robb in Sacramento]

Anthony:

OK, I'll try it, but if my San Chin breathing goes pyrotechnic I'll be checking with you for advice.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento