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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 1999 4:19 pm 
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OK, Mr. Bill, *

You asked for some new topics. Let's discuss (oh no!) kata!

The third set of techniques in Seichin, following the opening hiraken blocks/shoken punches and the front kicks, is the wrist block-palm grab movement (followed by a 180 turn).

I would like to examine some practical applications of these movements. This is one of the things that I have stored up in the back of my mind promising myself that someday I would look closer at it. Well, I guess now is as good a time as any.

Comments?

Moe Mensale



[Note: This message has been edited by gmattson]


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 1999 10:16 pm 
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Moe,

There's a coincidence - I was playing with that particular movment the other day, and came up with the following:

Picture uke throwing a right straight punch. Using your right arm, do the movement you were talking about to strike to the side of uke's neck (your forearm should block the punch on the way on the outside of his arm). Then, picture the rotation toward the "palm grab" position as lifting uke's chin, and tilting his head backward. The 'drop' of your arm at the end of the movement should compress the spine and drop uke more or less at your feet. Can you picture what I am talking about? (I can't wait until a few years from now when computers come [cheaply] with all kinds of neat gadgets and cameras, so we can post mpegs or whatever straight to the page, and not have to struggle with cumbersome efforts to describe techniques verbally... Anthony, this would not be a good juncture to point out that you already have these toys!) If this isn't clear, let me know, and I will try to explain what I'm talking about in a more descriptive way.

Have fun!

greg


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 1999 11:19 pm 
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Anthony,

Couldn't leave well enough alone, huh? Well here's another one (I love this game...).

Back to the scenario - I have just struck the right side of uke's neck (I prefer neck because of the involuntary, knee buckling reaction one gets - check out Malone Sensei's seminar at camp if you haven't already - in fairness though, a broken jaw is damn distracting...). Instead of the spinal compression and resultant throw, I use the right hand to grab uke's right lapel (which is on the left side of his neck, from my perspective). I then, as I turn grab his left lapel with my left hand. As I finish the turn (picture that "breaking" move in the kata) I apply a juji shime [crossed arm choke]. I can also use my right leg as an aspect of the turn to drag uke over. At the end of this series, uke is arched over backwards, having been hit in the neck, dragged over my leg, and in the process of being rather rapidly choked out.

Isn't anyone else going to play with us?

greg


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 1999 4:46 pm 
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OK. I'll play. Good application!!!

Another if easier one:

Uke punches right.

Step Back to right, right wrist block.

follow block with left wrist palm heel block swinging from left to right to end on ukes' arm just behing right elbow.

Press in with edge of hand as right wrist unfolds an grabs uke's right arm,

step back to a left horse, neutraluze/pull uke down with an arm bar like move.

No effort.


John T

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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 1999 9:01 pm 
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Greg, Anthony, John,

Interesting (nasty?) applications and concepts, indeed.

How about some input from Glasheen sensei and GEM (and anyone else) on what the original intent of these moves was? This is what I am primarily interested in examining although any additional applications would be welcome too.

Moe Mensale


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 1999 11:24 pm 
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Anthony et al:

I hope I haven't already (re)stated this, but a friend said to me: "there's 'good' bunkai-'bad' bunkai and 'poor' Bunkai.

The first works, but it's "pablum" application for safety reasons. The second is really dangerous and the third just doesn't work.

I note htat Aikido and Judo and Jiujitsu do 99.9% of ther work with Uke and Tori (Tore?).

Does anyone have a thought on whether or not an increase in time on applications is best, or does one set one primary focus on 'form' and let the 'bodyset' and 'body programming' try to work naturally?

Certainly some of the techniques in Seisan Bunkai are 'good' Bunkai, but at least without reference to the type of resources
Sensei Pantazi has to offer, may not appear at first glance to be particularly on the street.

All interpretations gratefully welcomed and printed for my notebooks.


JOHN T

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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 4:06 am 
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Moe

This is a very nice technique. Seichin used to be my favorite kata in the entire Uechi system. I am still meticulously dissecting it, and I have come up with literally a dozen applications for one of the movements in this form.

Some (like Evan Pantazi) like to come up with very specific applications in kata, and feel that there are really only one or two that the author meant. I've always felt that the Uechi system of karate was a bit different. It is so parsimonious in its choreography, but so many different things come out of each movement.

With that approach in mind, I have always felt that this particular movement could be thought of in several ways. The wrist movement represents a diversion from The Big Three (tm). You will not find this movement anywhere in Sanchin, Seisan, or Sanseiryu. However you WILL find it in the superinpei form that I learned indirectly from Shushiwa's nephew. In fact, it is done over and over and over again in the form. It aways happens at the end of a sequence. I think that it is perfectly plausible (though I cannot prove it) that this movement represents some of what Kanbun taught his son but was never passed on as part of a form per se. If we can believe the stories about Kanbun and Superinpei (Breyette sensei tells me that Toyama sensei confirmed that Kanbun was shown such a form), then this may give a tantalizing view of the movement in an earlier context.

IN GENERAL....the first half of this wrist technique can be block or attack...or BOTH. As a block, you are using the forearm and can do this in spite of the fact that you may have just damaged your hand in the fight. As an attack, you are striking with the hard tip of the radius.

IN GENERAL....the second half of the movement hints at the southern Chinese origin of the system. One can appreciate this movement more if one does chi sao of the Wing Chun system. It's commonly referred to as sticky hands. Basically the "pretty" rotation of the hand before the grab and pull is a way of maintaining contact with the opponent as one transitions from block/attack to grab. If you ever evolve in your martial training to practicing bo kata, you will recognize how common this principle is applied when doing hand changes. An experienced practitioner of kobudo does not grab his weapon in a static manner. Instead he/she skillfully transitions quite fluidly from one grip to the next.

I will give you a very specific interpretation that "jumped out" at me as I was practicing the superinpei. In this form, one repeatedly turns the body while doing "crane hand" with the left, and a lateral wrist movement with the right. And it is ALWAYS at the end of a sequence. At first I thought it was just a way to turn toward a NEW opponent. Then one day I was reading a book of Dillman demonstrating a kyusho application of a common Okinawan kata and BINGO!!!! I will just tell you what I am doing. I don't feel comfortable with all the Chinese accupuncture logic of the techniques; I'll let Evan chime in if he wants. Me....I like my western medicine.

Basically assume you have been able to grab onto a person's wrist with the one (stationary) hand. There is a way to hold the wrist where you are really clamping down near the condyles of the radius and the ulna. If you clamp down and rotate, you can give quite a sensation to your opponent. The most notable one is the unpleasant stimulation you give to the radial nerve. Now WHILE you are stimulating the wrist in this fashion, do a wrist strike right underneath the ear of your opponent. You will simultaneously be pulling on that wrist and striking to the side of the head that is flying towards you. With all the action happening at once, the wrist sends a shock wave in a slightly upward angle into the brain. If you do it right, you are virtually guaranteed to knock your partner out.

Hope this helps.

Bill


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 12:16 pm 
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Bill San, et al,

The reason I haven't come in on this discussion is that I am unfamiliar with the Kata. From what I think I gathered it is much like a move out of several Ryu Kyu Kata (Gojushiho and Suansu in particular).

Please understand also that when I have given specific ideas to certain movements that it in no way represents the only possibility. I adamantley stand by the notion that any Kata movement may be interpeted in an unlimited capacity. Yes I agree with Glasheen Sensei that each move in Kata had one or two meanings for the Originator, but since their passing and taking their real meaning to the grave with them, then it is up to our personal interpetation. On the Sanseiru Video I ask the question..."if the same move in this master level Kata is the same as in more basic Kata, what makes it so advanced, it is the experience and knowledge of the person performing and breaking this move down that is the difference."

Glasheen Sensei's technique most assuredly will at minimum cause unconsciousness, possible a dislocated jaw and neck damage dependent on the power involved. An Idea I use when performing (what I believe the motion under disscusion is), is to get the opponent into a choke with the wrist cutting across the windpipe and the turn breaking the throat with the lateral turn and motion. Can't wait to see this move or the Suparempi Kata Moves described (I ordered it awhile ago)!

------------------
Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 2:00 pm 
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Evan

Sorry to misrepresent you. Perhaps I misunderstood a previous exchange. Glad to see we read from the same hymnal; I thought it was me who wrote that! Brilliant, I say!

The movement in question (at least the first half of the seichin movement, which is what is repeatedly done in superinpei) is really quite innocent looking. I never would have thought it to be anything significant except for the fact that it is done repeatedly in the superinpei form. And I orignally thought the movement to be something very different (a block to a new opponent after turning) until I saw sensei Dillman doing a somewhat similar movement in a very basic Okinawan kata and showing its application.

I'm sorry, Evan, but I don't have the book in front of me. It looks to be a kyusho basics book. I borrowed it from someone and returned it. In the Okinawan kata, one is standing in a heiko dachi (natural stance). Both elbows are out to the side. However one hand is to the chest and the other hand is extended out to the side (head is turned to the extended arm). Dillman shows the innocent-looking (really silly looking) movement in kata, and then shows what it is like to be holding someone's wrist with the one hand and hitting with hammer fist under the ear with the other.

Now in Uechiryu and this superinpei, the practitioner doesn't let the elbows drift from the protective position in front of the rib cage. However it's easy to see how you can still employ the same or very similar application. Instead of using the tettsui uchi to strike, one instead uses the tip of the radial bone with the hand in koi no shippo yoko uchi.

Once again, one can really get srewed up thinking about the directionality of things in the form. You need to visualize yourself with navel turned 90 degrees with respect to the opponent. In both seichin and the superinpei, the relative lack of arm extention (as compared to Dillman's classic Okinawan form) is made up for by the fact that a full step forward is made before the wrist movement. In the seichin form you do not rotate your body, but you do (step and then rotate) in the superinpei.

Bill


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 2:07 pm 
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Evan san

Do you think there is any possibility that we could get George Dillman's permission to post a photo or two from the book to make the point? It would probably sell a book or two for the old master. I could then pose the same movements Uechi-style, and then show how I would apply it. I've got a scanner at home and could get these all in jpeg format.

I'm not sure if it's Rich (in this city) or Arn (in Charlottesville) who has Dillman sensei's book, but I'm sure we could locate it and someone scan the picture(s).

Bill


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 7:01 pm 
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Bill San,

Dillman Sensei is out of town on a seminar tour again so I can't pose the question. However it sounds like the end move of Kata Nai Han Chi. What I will try to do tonight is to video this portion of Kata as well as the Motion I alluded to from Gojushiho and post them to your page.



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Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 1999 7:10 pm 
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Evan

Yes, I believe it is Nai Han Chi.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 03-08-99).]


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 1999 12:30 am 
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Bill, J.D., Evan Sans and Sensei:

(don't want to miss any proper salutations)

I asked the question which I think Glasheen Sensei gave his opinion on re: More Uke and Tore (tori) applications (?) or more form work? I think Bill Sensei addressed this partially in stating (I think) that a lot of Jitsu may appear to limit applications and the Kata may have many.

Any other thoughts?

The Application I posted is based on a Tai Chi neutralize from "grasp the sparrow'ss tail.

The Shohei-Ryu thread does "a" (certainly not the only possible) Sanseirui Bunkai, if this is helpful, let me know. I have it typed and will cheerfully E-Mail it.

Based on the the "poor" "good" and "bad" Bunkai analogies mentioned, it is a "good" Bunkai.

Sensei Breyette made these distinctions to me originally quite a while ago. I found the old E-mail in my folder.

Just wanted to give credit where due.

Any thoughts on this?

Sensei Glasheen:

I have "your" tape on Suparempi and I hope that your thoughts will help me understand it a bit.

JOHNT



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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 1999 1:48 am 
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Bill San,

I put 2 MPEGS on the ftp access at the bottom of the page. So this won't bog down the disscussion the first is the posture from Nai Han Chi and a view of an application (NHC Mpeg). Also a move from Gojushiho (The end of the Kata - 54 MPEG). I can't wait to get the Suparempi Tape.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
http://www.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: Seichin's 3rd Movement
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 1999 3:01 pm 
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Evan

Thanks for the posts. Yes, the Nai Han Chi application is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Just change the hammer fist to a wrist strike and hit with the tip of the radius, and - by George - you've got it. I do have a question here though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you get more bang for the buck if you pinch on some nerves (or pressure point) with the grabbing hand? This, to me, is the elegance of sequential or combined point striking vs targeting single points.

I REALLY like the Gojushiho application. This too works, and is a very clever interpretation of the movement. THIS, folks, is precisely the reason why I tell people that they shouldn't be running around looking for people to tell them what THE interpretation of a move is. Good kata teach you good body mechanics. Creative minds take these principles and learn to apply them in multiple ways. I found that when I cross trained in martial arts, I kept repeating some of the same basic principles I learned earlier in my martial studies.

J.D.

You might be r..... ri..... right. (Wheu, that was difficult!!) In fact now that you mention it, I agree that the pronation of the forearm is identical. It COULD be that Kanei did indeed extract this single motion from sanseiryu. But.....the focused lateral movement and the wrist position would have to be considered an "add on", as would all the other wrist strike directions in the hojoundo. Most of these positions are in the superinpei, and they are not in sanseiryu. Still....I see your point and agree that the link is easily conceived.

John

I've seen a sanseiryu bunkai done by some Uechi folks (I believe it was Yonamine). I was unimpressed with the interpretation of the movement that J.D. speaks of. I learned one in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu that is much more "fun", and literally takes the person out. If you are going to do something that fancy, you'd better have a good reason. Also, we have a nice interpretation of that very movement in our dojo dan kumite that is a block to a flying side kick (variation of number 4). There are many variations on the defense from the gentle (catching and controlling them) to the brutal (throwing someone on their head).

IN GENERAL

Where do you guys get the ability to do these films that can be posted? Are you using a digital camera? Is there a standard? Should I be getting my credit card out?

Neat thread, guys!!

Bill

Bill


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