How to pick

kc · Post by kc » Sat Jun 19, 1999 10:56 pm

I noticed the coment about promotion to 8th Dan. My only concern is how do you choose one over another capable, worhty and ready candidate? I realize that the number of people who practice with such diligence and stay involved in a system long enough to achieve such a rank are far and few, but the system is growing. This growth can only mean that more people will achieve these ranks. If there are two people of equal skill and knowledge, shouldn't they be tested together? In twenty years, when Uechi-Ryu has inspired thousands more diligent karateka, could ther not be ten or more candidates worthy of 8th Dan? It would take ten yers to promote all of them. In that time we could see twenty more waiting in line. Forty more after them. Hey, it could happen! I say, test those who are ready and leave the beauracracy out of it.

Post by **gmattson** » Sun Jun 20, 1999 2:16 pm

A very difficult subject with no perfect solutions. I was invited to attend numerous Okinawan Uechi-ryu Association meetings when sensitive subjects like rank were discussed. Although Sensei Uechi had the final word, he was smart enough to realize that such decisions must be discussed and generally approved by the board.

The qualification for very high rank must be based on standards that maintain the dignity and prestige of the rank. In my mind they include:
1. Actively teaching.
2. Ongoing contributions to the development and understanding of Uechi-ryu.
3. Adherence to the Codes of conduct and ethics.
4. Qualify in total years practicing and time in grade between ranks.

At this time the seniors of NAC believe promotions to 8th dan should be limited to one a year.

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GEM

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Mon Jun 21, 1999 2:32 am

I must agree that if a candidate fulfills the requirements for a rank set forth by an association, and if they and their instructor want to go up for the rank, then it should not matter how many their are.
Why should their be a wait? Why should people care whether or not Uechi or Shohei has too many 8+ dans in their systems? If they are worth the rank, then they are worth they system to have them...all of them.

I can't say why Uechi sensei and the rest came up with that "rule of thumb," but the question is, do they adhere to it on Okinawa? Do they only promote one per year? Gary Khoury told me a couple of months ago that some of the best Uechi/Shohei training in the world is right here in the United States. Taking in his experience and that of others, why then would we limit ourselves to rank quotas?

just my opinion,

Mike

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jun 22, 1999 5:00 am

kc

Actually I think we should limit the number of 6th degree awards to one per year...

My cynicism and your observations are worth consideration. Too bad there's a lack of objective criteria across ALL styles for ranks of this level. To bad the rank has been so devalued by a status and title-conscious society where instant gratification and the power of the dollar corrupt our views of what is really important in life.

-- Bill

kc · Post by kc » Tue Jun 22, 1999 6:49 pm

Ok, since we are talking about the value of the rank now. Could the restriction of promotions to certain ranks per year also be looked at as a quota? Then where will the reputation of the system and the rank bestoed upon individuals be? If we tested two people this year and promoted both and didn't test for the same rank for two years then I think it would show better on both the system and the individuals concerned. While testing one person per year (possibly every year)looks too much like a quota system and lessens the meaning of the rank. At least in my eyes.

Gary Santaniello · Post by **Gary Santaniello** » Tue Jun 22, 1999 8:01 pm

Serious topic here! I must jump in this one with my two cents worth.

Bill, great statement made by you, "To bad the rank has been so devalued by a status and tittle conscious society where instant gratification and the power of the dollar corrupt our veiws of what is really important in life!" Yes, how very true and accurate.

However, i think that is very "unfair" to hold back or penalize others worthy of rank with equal time in who are very worthy in an attempt to somehow balance the seemingly unjust attitudes of others?

I am a godan with 25 years behind me. I got promoted with 4 others of whom i have come up through the ranks with. Providing we all continue to study and teach for the required time between ranks, (not to mention how many others there are) who should deside which one goes to 6th dan before the others? Whom shall wait for two years of promotions before it is there turn? Surely favoritism and politics would be involved as they are now in s.s.s ranks. Why not just refer to these as "master ranks" as they are known as? Are we trying to be humble? Just curious.

I agree strongly with Mike Murphy's veiw here. If you deserve it, you should get it when "you" are worthy of it. Of course higher ranks such as 7th, 8th & 9th dans are fewer for obvious reasons. Now after 50 years of evolvement we have obviously aquired more higher ranks. However, if we follow a set of standards such as Sensei Mattson has outlined, "that maintain the dignity and prestige of the rank" we should not fear others attaining rank so close that some may feel threated by it! Is there not some reality to that? I wonder.

"If the "gold stripes" mean anything--and i think they can--then we have to preserve the standards."

J.D.

I would only like to add, i feel that the standard in "testing" for both 5th & 6th dan ranks should be much "more" intense and that demonstrating "dan kumite" and "seisan bunkai" should b performed in front of the entire group of dan candidates. There are never that many going up for 5th & 6th degree and the lower dan ranks should see what they are striving towards physically and spiritually. If one cannot perform at the "highest of standards" they should fail at that time. I believe that the "formality" of promotion (as referred
to) should be done away with. Not were i go, some may say? How do you feel about it?

Enough said here, i'm sure. Once again, no disrespect to anyone is intended.

Happy uechi-ing !!!

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Gary S.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jun 22, 1999 8:29 pm

Gary

Just to carify my cynical statement....I am 6th degree. My suggestion that there should only be one promotion to 6th per year was a way of teasing senior-senior-seniors who would suggest that there should only be one award of 8th dan per year. I was merely pointing out the temptation (and not necessarily the tendency) to be self-serving in one's decisions. If we could only come up with uniform, objective, and universally accepted standards, the need for quotas would be gone.

As for your suggestions that the requirements for higher rank should be more "intense", that dan kumite and seisan bunkai should be performed even at the higher ranks, my response is funny you should mention that. Last summer we had a slew of people testing for higher dan ranks at the camp. Traditionally one only needs to do The Big Three (tm) for the higher ranks. Well since master Uechi was there and all the camp attendees were watching, it was decided that these candidates would also demonstrate these exercises. No big deal since they are supposed to be teaching these requirements, right? The result was.....embarassing. My group on the board failed all but one candidate, and sent that one home with a slew of suggestions.

And what was my attitude about that? I was only upset that the camp attendees did not know we sent these test candidates back home empty-handed. George and others were interested in helping well-known people save face by discussing the results privately. I, on the other hand, needed to explain to younger students why these particular seniors looked so bad. When asked - incredulously - if I thought they did OK, my simple response was "No!"

And in the end, I think this was a very, very good thing. And in the end, I am proud that others on the test panel voted with their conscience and not their hearts.

- Bill

Gary Santaniello · Post by **Gary Santaniello** » Tue Jun 22, 1999 11:31 pm

Bill

Thanks for your clarification. I obviously took your intended meaning incorrectly.

I find that very interesting regarding last years "Dan Testing" in that what i was suggesting actually took place and many of them "FAILED". How interesting.
I knew that several had failed but i was unaware of the rest of what you said.

I Will only be at the summer camp on saturday for one day however, i will ask around for you to introduce myself. I look foward to meeting you.

Best wishes!

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Gary S.

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Wed Jun 23, 1999 3:59 am

To all,

Sensei Mattson makes some wonderful points in his "What's New" section dated June 22 concerning rank. We must all be very careful that we do not fall into the trap of promoting for the sake of promoting. I have been extremely fortunate to be able to sit on the board at the last 8 or 9 regional tests and to see the one at last year's camp, and I can tell you that, for the most part, all students have earned their rank.

Regarding higher rank. I too, believe that rank must be earned. Teaching and practicing must be among the requirements to those seeking godan and above in my opinion. I have no problem demonstrating my ability nor those of my students to show that I have been working at both. If they are not good enough then so be it, but standards are set to be attainable, which means that I would have to work that much harder.

Sensei also mentions that there are set requirements for gaining titles of renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi. I have looked about my books and the web page but have found none written. Can anyone tell me what these requirements are? Just interested.

yours in budo,

Mike

Gary Santaniello · Post by **Gary Santaniello** » Wed Jun 23, 1999 6:08 am

Hi Mike,

Funny you should ask of such a question regarding rank and tittles. I just spoke with Sensei Mattson only yesterday on the same subject. I just now looked into it further but got limited results.

Go into the Main Page were "contents" are listed on the left side. follow down to "Federation" enter there. Go down that table of contents to "Relationship between Junior and Senior Instructors" click on there. Follow down to "9.4 Senior Instuctor" it refers to "Renshi" as a "Senior Tilttle" for certain individuals of 6th dan or higher considered to be outstanding in abilities and skills.

I believe that 6th dan is "Rokadan" although when i refer to the book "Uechiryu Karate-Do" it appears to present Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi, Hanshi-sei as numerical terms following 5th dan.

I was informed that these are "special tittles" issued to certain people and not "Rank" within themselves, as i had believed. I believe that there are many Renshi's within the 6th and 7th dan ranks. I also believe that Van Canna Sensei is tittled "Kyoshi" as well as 8th dan and of course Sensei Mattson would then be "Hanshi" as well as 9th dan. Surely with all he has done over 50 years of teaching and developing uechi- ryu would justify that "highest" level of recognition. I know not if these tittles have actual translated english meaning to them. Anyone?

By the way, did we all know that "Shihan" is a tittle also, referring to an instructor? I didn"t. How am i doing George? I'm sure you will let me know if i messed this up, right?

Best i can tell you Mike, hope i"m accurate in my response. If not, i apologize for any incorrectness there may be.

One question, do we really need more tittles to go with more stripes to go with the ranks? Should not all "ranked" people of say 6th dan and above be of "exceptional" standards? I would certainly hope so. I believe that they are, from what i have seen. Surely the reputations of such individuals are without question. Americans at that! Would you believe it?

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Gary S.

mikemurphy · Post by **mikemurphy** » Wed Jun 23, 1999 11:19 am

Gary,

The titles do have English translations although my books are packed away at the moment. These are supposed to be "master" titles and are not always tied to a certain rank. Renshi for example is given (separately from rank) as early as Yondan in some organizations, although it must be awarded. Kyoshi and Hanshi are the same.

I believe setting the minimum standard rank on these title are important as well. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the minimum rank for renshi is 6th dan, kyoshi 7th dan, and hanshi 8th dan (hanshi-sei is not used in other styles that I have heard of). Meijin (sp?) is another title given to the grand master I believe.

Anyway, I read the Federation requirements on this and they are foggy at best. Is it based soley on your instructor's opinion of your teaching, etc. or is there a thesis (as some organizations require) needed, or what? And what about the title of Shihan? What are the requirements for this title?

I guess this goes on the same question of rank that we have been speaking of. If the requirements are spelled out and a person exhibits them to a satisfactory level to the powers-to-be, then there should be no reason why they should not be awarded the rank or the title.

Yours in budo,

mike

T Rose · Post by **T Rose** » Wed Jun 23, 1999 3:23 pm

If you go to MIT and work hard, follow the guidance of your professor, learn the basics, you will walk out after 4 years with a BS degree (Bachelor of Science). Some will continue to study with more freedom, less parameters and earn a Master's degree. Some will continue to study and not earn the degree. Most of the BS frocked will go into the work place and contribute in a positive way. A very few will study in greater depth,with much fewer parameters for an undetermined length of time. SOme of these will earn a Ph.D and the honorium title of DR. A select few will do post-docorate work. One might even go on to earn something like a Nobel prize! All of the above are contributors and all of the above study for the love of what they study. That is the key.

Rank has to be earned. Students must understand that everyone contributes in a positive way if they study for the love of what they do. If they study under the prepostion of attaining rank then we will always have a 'rank' (pardon the pun) problem. If seniors in a style bestow ranks and titles frivously based simply on time then the rank has no meaning and deserves none just as if I went to MIT for 10 years, paid tuition and walked away with a Ph.D. It is a hard problem but academia seems to have a handle on it.

btw if you only promoted one, which candidate should get the MIT Ph.D this year???

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jun 23, 1999 9:56 pm

Mike

As to the "set requirements" for renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi in SOKE...

When it came time for me to test for rokudan, I had noted a tendency for the awarding of these "titles" to be automatic with the respective ranks. This was not my understanding, and I wanted to make a point when it was my turn. To me, these titiles implied major contributions to the system. So I suggested to George that there should be a sort of dissertation, thesis, or project to get the title. The rank, I thought, should be separate and based on skill plus time in grade. Furthermore, I offered myself as the prototype. My "thesis" for renshi was two pieces of choreography: a form to teach Uechika all the basic kicks in karate (38 special) and a set of bunkai kumite (12 of them) for the hojoundo. I filmed them, wrote them up, and discussed both the concepts behind them as well as the use of them. I was hoping - for the sake of SOKE - that the process would stick. Judging from the comments that George gave you, maybe it has.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-23-99).]

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Thu Jun 24, 1999 5:18 am

Why, pray tell, Good Dr. do you think I hate you? Just because your posts are long winded, your words longer than 2 phonems and you are a ( gasp! ) brain surgeon doesn't mean I despise thee! However, if your wife is tall, leggy blonde, your teenage daughter just got into Hahvahd and your MIT gradute son just got a Rhodes Scholarship, then I might be a little envious. But hate, never. As long as you don't touch may girlfriend!

I find your posts amusing, as we are on the same wavelength (usually) and would love to meet you in person!

Gene

The Editor · Post by **The Editor** » Fri Jun 25, 1999 6:54 am

Mr. DeMambro:

With patience and increased familiarity with the subject, you will learn hate.

--Ed.