Dan Kumite Takedown

[Gary Santaniello]

Over the years i have seen the take down performed in various ways. I have also experimented with variations myself.

After throwing the front kick the attacker then comes in with a right punch (hook or straight) from this point on, what do some of you seniors and instructors see as alternatives in the takedown?

I understand the left hand block with a right palm heel to the face area is the most direct and very damaging. I also feel that we as advanced black belts should be making the defender work at distrupting the stance and forcing the takedown with controlled technique.

Some believe that one should basically just "go down" due to the theory that the palm heel will be all that is needed. Although that may be so, i feel that to do so is giving a false sense to the defender that the rest of the takedown, (distruption of stance, via inside leg check or shoulder attack) need not be worked therfore developing an inadequite completion of the takedown.

Understanding the dangers involved in applying a leg check or sweep amoung other variations, shouldn't we as advanced practicioners be working the "control" of these techniques rather than not because "some" don't know control? Is that not part of our job as instructors to teach how to hit into the hip joint, shoulder and/or clavical location, and various leg techniques with the ability to "control" the power of the strikes ?

It has also been suggested to me that by attacking the shoulder area one would be receiving a counter punch by the opponents left hand. Seeing that possibilty, does that mean that a broken clavical bone or dislocated shoulder by a strongly delivered shuto is not considered effective? I work a controlled light hit to the chin followed with a pushing back which ditrupts the upper body balance.

With respect to all, please share your views on this along with how you practice the takedown.

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Gary S.

[paul giella]

Gary,
Whether it is the palm heel to the chin or shoulder joint, an elbow to the sternum or solar plexus or ribs,or even the defender thowing his weight against the attacker with his own shoulder (all good alternatives, in my view... all worth practicing), the point of the sequence is to jolt the attacker backwards to stop the forward momentum and take charge of the situation. Whether the follow-up is then the classic leg take-down, or Sensei Canna's ripping downward throw, or some other technique, the point is that the defender has taken immediate and decisive control of the situation and does not let the attacker regain his balance or momentum.

[Robb in Sacramento]

Gary:

The limited response to your post suggests that people are taking a few days off around Labor Day, or we are all struggling as much as you with the application of various techniques in Dan Kumite. And though I sense you were hoping for a response from a senior or senior-senior or two, I thought I would go ahead an give you my two cents.

First, when I approach this technique, or any application of our kata, I keep in mind a story Peter Kellogg shared with me about training with Master Shinjo. Mr. Kellogg was a well known dojo rat by anyone who frequented the Kadena Dojo. Having left home as a teenager to train in karate, his life was very much wrapped up in any guidance Master Shinjo had to offer. One day, Mr. Kellogg found himself alone in the dojo. Master Shinjo peeked in, and asked Mr. Kellogg if he would like to learn one of the secrets of karate, which was very much like asking a crusader if he would like a map to the Holy Grail. Mr. Kellogg accepted the offer, and Master Shinjo entered the dojo. What happened next, I will leave for you discuss with Mr. Kellogg over a beer, but the insight he took away from Master Shinjo is the karate is not just punching and kicking, but that it is also grabbing, throwing, and controlling.

Starting from the premise that karate inherently contains grabbing and throwing techniques, I think we do ourselves a disservice by focusing on palm heel strikes or elbow strikes to make the take down in dan kumite work. What seems to me more important, is how have we have balanced, or more appropriately, unbalanced, our opponent with our block and our stance.

The use of ones own stance to unbalance an opponent is often overlooked. Having had the pleasure of being soundly pounded by some of Tak Kubota's shotokan students though, I have come to realize how effectively they use their stance to unbalance and take down their opponents.

Similarly, how one positions oneself in the dan kumite is critical to how well the take down will work. Adjusting the angle of ones stance to the angle of ones opponent, can offer an insight into what position is optimal for a take down. I have found that for me, the focus of my stance must not be into the center of my opponent, but rather centered on where I want my opponent to land.

The block is also critical. I do not recall whether it was Mr. Author, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Earle, or my shotokan instructor Mr. Warner, who first introduced me to the concept of points of balance on a human body. I wish I could recall, for I owe this person a debt of insight that I cannot repay.

I find the take down in dan kumite will not work if the circle block has not disturbed and disrupted the points of balance of my opponent. If, however, I have succeeded in moving my opponent's shoulder behind his or her hip, the take down is relatively effortless.

The knee alignment of my opponent is another consideration. If his or her knee is past perpendicular toward the midline, a take down to the outside is problematic. If, however, the knee is either perpendicular or angled to the outside, the take down can be done quite effortlessly.

Ultimately, I think it is the struggle with this technique that provides the most learning. I would agree with you, it is necessary to practice taking the person down, but not with violence or striking force, but with effortlessness and control. Hitting another is fairly easy in the scheme of things. Mastering ones own balance to the extent that it can be used to unbalance another takes practice. (Though not necessarily in karate, one of the best insights I ever received on how to apply the take down came from a college football player student with limited Uechi experience, but who observed how similar the take down was to a football skill he had learned. I had him show me the football skill, and darn if the take down didn't work better. [but in the event Bill reads this, I still find the NBA the best source of practical karate application, football insights aside].)

In summary, I think if we focus on our own balance, the strength and focus of our circle block, and the focus of our stance, the take down can be done without resort to a strike of any kind. Hope there is something in here of some use to you Gary. Great question and observation.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[Van Canna]

This very topic was the subject of some animated discussion recently at the hut!

Everyone has different opinions on how a takedown should work, and that is good!
One problem that becomes apparent sometimes in these discussions is, that even very advanced martial artists lose sight of what the essential principles of “ prevailing upon the opponent” are!

Rob gets closer to the essence when he says:
“The insight he took away from Master Shinjo is the karate is not just punching and kicking, but that it is also grabbing, throwing, and controlling.
Starting from the premise that karate inherently contains grabbing and throwing techniques, I think we do ourselves a disservice by focusing on palm heel strikes or elbow strikes to make the take down in Dan kumite work.”
Students who have never been in a street fight love to revel in the make believe world of prearranged kumite and bunkais arguing things like “ if I get a palm heel or eye strike etc. in first to the attacker, the fight is over”! So they delude themselves in thinking that attacking the arm or limbs, grabbing, ripping blocks, and controlling techniques and “ slammer” throws using the “ first contact point” of the enemy as leverage , are not necessary!

They even argue against the very principles of Uechi-Ryu, which attempts to teach us those precepts by the very nature of our blocks-- Think of the “ LOCK AND LOAD” aspect of our blocking system! --- But for the most part we see some pitiful blocks that look like a wave of the hand to a pretty woman!

Then they truly believe that practicing their take down of doom with lots of “ fine motor skills”
Built into it, against some stiff, compliant uke standing still like a dummy will save the day!

Take an adrenalized “ industrial size” mal-intentioned behemoth coming at them full steam ahead, and their brain will never allow the “throw” to even surface in their self defense repertoire, never mind the execution of the right sequence!

And that is where the basic problem lies! The conscious brain has created the illusion the throw will work; the student, never having been in a string of real fights, and only having practiced his takedowns in a stilted: A then B then C then D, kind of scenario, finds himself totally deserted by the “technique” When the primal brain takes over and “tells the super conscious to go to hell “ for lack of realistic programming.

Go and debrief students of Uechi-Ryu who have been in real fights over the years and find out how many have really used the take down from Dan kumite in the way we teach it!

Takedowns must be a “state of mind” with the student! Takedowns are not “grappling” they are mind numbing slamming bolts of lighting ala Clarence Wilder!

The “ takedown” begins as a “mind ripple” that sets the very first technique in motion!
While it makes sense to first strike a blow at the opponent center, the student must practice to let his takedown begin at the “first contact point” of the opponent.
In a real fight, no one will attack you in the manner of the kumite, and you will be lucky if you even intercept momentarily a wild swinging arm perhaps wielding a slashing razor or a broken beer bottle! You let go of that arm for an instant, instead of ripping it out of its socket on the way to a takedown, and your belly will be cut open!

You let go of his neck or chin after a palm heel strike thinking he “has had it” and he will cut your throat or choke the life out of you in a bear hug!

All the stuff you learn about the points of the hip or leg you are supposed to hit for a classical take down against the enraged, huge, attacking opponent bent on destroying you and moving and shifting your precious targets at “warp speed”, will have left town, but you still don’t believe this do you!

So what works?? You must develop extreme torque in all your moves, so that when you “first touch” your opponent a take down of sort is already in progress regardless of the nature of “your first touch”

The way I teach this concept in Dan kumite take down, is to start the downward spiral of your opponent, say, at the head, if you choose to first palm heel the chin {the resulting neck break take down is terrifying to watch}; if that fails, the natural motion of the snapping “block” follows naturally to lock and rip down shoulder and arm while the opponent might be somewhat reeling from the disruptive force of the palm heel strike, neck takedown attempt and knee penetration into his center, and only then you go for his leg in the classical way! And once he is down make sure you do something to him that will prevent his getting up in murderous rage and chase you down like a dog while you attempt to flee!

Some of the stuff I see out of “the classical way” we finish our takedown makes me laugh! Like I said many times before, lots of the things we do in Dan kumite or kyu kumite is what fantasy is made of! Kanbun Uechi did not practice Dan kumite! Does that mean he wasn’t any good at takedowns or distancing or using blocks and counters??

At the police academy where Bob Bethoney teaches self-defense; there was a big guy in a “blue suit” that was used to being “hit” with impunity by the students and had grown pretty arrogant! So he really went after Bob trying to teach this “karate master” a lesson! While expecting to be kicked or punched he found himself yanked down face first into the ground by a ripping block and when he tried to get up he got kneed in the head and stunned! This, BTW, is the manner I like to teach the knee strike sequence out of Seisan -bunkai~



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Van Canna

[Bill Glasheen]

Robb

Hey, nothing wrong with stealing some good ideas from American football. I had a number of NCAA football players in my UVa classes over the years. Unfortunately all I usually got was the slow linemen who were badly in need of developing even a modicum of flexibility and coordination. Recently however I've been blessed with a couple of Titans who can more than tie their own shoes.

Mostly I like to teach my students the movements that the great running backs use to keep from getting tackled. UVa has been blessed in the last decade with a few good runners who can leave the defenders' shoes behind them. I like to point out to my students how the tenshin movement in the hojoundo is the basis for many good offensive moves in both football and basketball. Sometimes I take this 90 degree turn and show students how they can use the same pattern to do 180 and 360 degree turns, thus making them more nimble for their pickup games in the sandlot. It's also extremely valuable for escaping a circle of attackers in a multiple-opponent fighting situation. Same principle, many different applications.

Gary

The one thing I have noticed about this movement is how many different ways people apply it. I've seen good ideas, bad ideas, bad applications of good ideas, etc, etc.

Because of the general nature of what you are working on, I try not to get too preachy about any one way. Instead, I work on using this as an opportunity to teach a few basic principles that apply to many different applications I have seen.

The first thing I do is point out the movement from whence it comes. It is a sequence in sanseiryu kata, done almost verbatum. Simple interpretation of the fancy circle movement (low block of front kick), 45 degree pivot into left sanchin (block of right arm attack) and then the takedown. When you see the sequence in the kata and then the dan kumite move, it tends to crystalize the thoughts a bit more from both perspectives.

Now....the principles I concentrate on...

1) I often have my students loosen up a bit and try to throw the "haymaker" punch that you see so many throw on the street. Those crazy looping punches are really dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Blocking them and blocking a spinning hook kick involve understanding an important principle - don't block with one arm near the elbow or knee. I've actually accidentally knocked a student out who did this wrong one time. You end up aiding a movement straight to your jaw, kind of the way a thrown rope with weights wraps around a tree and pulverizes it when the spinning stops. You've got two choices: either "block" with both arms, or use at least one to attack the attacker during the execution of the technique. I put the term block in quotations because if you know what you are doing, you can attack the arm with your "block".

2) Look for movements between the movements. Sometimes a "chambering" motion (coming back with the boshiken hands) can be thought of as an attack. In general one should never waste movement; think of it as another opportunity.

3) Throws work best when you are very close. Pay close attention to distance.

4) Throws work better when you take the starch out of your opponent. Before dropping to mess with the leg, it sure makes life a LOT easier if you have them either destabalized, distracted, or recently whalloped. This doesn't mean the throw doesn't work; it's just good sense. The space shuttle would never get off the ground without redundant systems. When your life depends on it (like in a fight), it helps to have that attitude. Things will go wrong; you need to have backups.

5) One need not focus on the specific attack when defending. Yes, when you come inside you can be hit with the left hand. But if you destroy the person's center, the left hand is useless. Similarly there can be ways that you can break the momentum of the right hand attack by attacking the person during their forward and/or rotational movement.

6) Don't take forever fooling around between the right arm attack and your leg throw. Yes get control, but flow, flow, flow!

7)There are multiple ways to make the leg takedown work. First understand the normal vs. abnormal function of the knee and hip. This gives you clues to how you can use someone's structure against them. Don't forget the reflex points - particularly the one in the hip around the femoral area. And don't forget your advancing right leg. I can do the takedown on many people just with my right leg alone via a trap and destabalization of their right leg (picked that one up from Bobby Campbell).

8) Don't let go of the leg as they go down. This is an application of chi sao (sticking hands). And those hands should then go like homing devices straight to their destinations on the leg. And the final leg hold should NOT be two hands at the same point.

9) I never, ever, ever allow my students to stay on the ground with their legs open and allow the person to kick them. Stupid, stupid, stupid. If you don't want your students to do something dumb when "under the gun", then don't let them practice it in class. This doesn't mean that the person holding your leg can't finish you off; it just means that it will be a little more challenging...

10)...And it isn't over when they let go of your leg. I teach my students to do a leg sweep if the person just stands there hovering over you. Once again, practice (in a controlled fashion) being a realistic, uncooperative partner. A good teacher can teach a realistic ending that makes both parties ingrain good instincts. Sometimes in spite of your best efforts, you won't be able to makes things work. No problem, keep flowing with the attacks and maintain your defenses. The show must go on!

Hope this helps the discussion.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 09-07-99).]

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

Nothing like your colorful descriptions of reality for getting the adrenaline flowing!

Lately I've had the pleasure of teaching Dan Kumite to an "industrial sized" student (6' 3", 310 pounds). In the past, I've always used my smaller women as the "acid test" for whether or not a technique would work. If they can't get it to work against a larger, uncooperative male, then I would probably not be able to get it to work against a larger, aggressive opponent. Now I get a chance to test my theories. And this guy is also a judo player. He doesn't "B.S." me about his responses. It's been fun.

I highly recommend people take the chance to teach their favorite methods to smaller people and have them attempt to try them on larger partners. It's very eye-opening. To me, it's not karate if we are only looking for the biggest and strongest to claim as students of our method. If we overprepare against the "impossible" opponents in class, we have a fighting chance against the random attacker who brings a merciless attitude as an advantage to the fight.

We take good care of the "big boys" that come our way. They are our best friends.

- Bill

[Gary Santaniello]

To all,

Thank you to those who have responded with in depth veiws and opinions. Hopefully those who have not taken this pre-arranged portion of Dan Kumite to seriously will look at it differently after having read some of your comments.
I think that the Dan Kumite takedown is most difficult for one to learn especially when some simply go down wthout any force or distruption of stance being applied.

There are several ways to approach taking one down and yes, it must flow from one movement to another not allowing ones apponent the opportunity to regain their balance and/or composure.

The initial shock of the strike going into then opponent hopefully wll be damaging enough to continue taking him out however, if he is the "adrenalized industrial giant" i would not count on it.

Respectfully,


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Gary S.

[Robb in Sacramento]

Mr. Santaniello:

Thanks to you for starting such a good discussion. While I am still trying to figure out who "you" is in Mr. Canna's reply, I am struck (pardon the pun) by your observation concerning those who might be in a different state of consciousness. I am not sure what Mr. Canna's opinion is on this issue, but my sense is that while drugs will heighten ones tolerance for pain, hence minimizing the effectiveness of some techniques, drugs also leave many with an impaired sense of balance and diminished visual acuity. For a person in this state, techniques focused on balance would seem more appropriate than those focused on pain.

One other observation on Dan Kumite, and preset kumite and bunkai in general; I think these are wonderful test tubes for exploring technique, free of self defense or sparring concerns. While training under pressure has its place, I do not believe it belongs in the development of basics or in the exploration of technique. These preset fights presuppose a preset attack. If one varies the attack, then it would seem one should also vary the defense, and soon, the techniques are no longer prearranged.

Now with that said, and my support for the continued use of Dan Kumite carved in electrons, would anybody really use dan kumite #3 as a defense?

Peace,
Robb in Sacramento

[Van Canna]

“Scroll Six. If you don't practice realistically, you won't react realistically”

“Scroll nine. Intercept, contact and unbalance simultaneously, apply” {genjumin}

Wise words!

Kumite` and Bunkais as well as katas could all be classified as test tubes for technique exploration and assimilation! Very necessary at the lower Dan ranks to study in A=b=c, format, free of the self-defense pressure cooker!

At higher levels, the student should be coaxed along in developing situational confidence along a martial “force continuum” concept so as to increase his “perceived” effectiveness of the skill/technique which he is seeking to program for spontaneous retrieval in combat, or those techniques will not emerge!

Watching the top “ high power” Dans, such as Bob Bethoney and a host of others, perform kumite` and bunkais, it becomes apparent that all the principles inherent in the exercises are taken to a higher level of execution transcending the “static environment” of the training hall!

All of the techniques and skills are there, only they are launched as a tsunami wave in unison to overpower and shock!

“ Developing situational confidence is a matter of applying a technique to the dynamics of a field application.” [Siddle]

All martial arts techniques are to be considered marginal in a real fight especially if confronting a berserk madman on drugs! In my investigations of such affrays, these individuals could not be counted on to be easily toppled for balance problems! Against these people, even handgun bullets are marginal!

Don’t be easily seduced by martial rhetoric!

Genjumin-san, feel free to give us the benefit of your experience with the prearranged kumite/bunkai execution, from the learning stage to application in combat, and percentage of effectiveness!

Another interesting point to keep in mind is that even the Okinawan masters cannot agree among themselves on manner of techniques or application! This was one of the most frustrating aspects of my early training!




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Van Canna

[Gary Santaniello]

Robb;
"would anyone really use dan kumite #3 as a defense ?"
I veiw the return kicks (right front and left roundhouse) as a return drive for setting up the opponent. As in all the dan kumite drills, i have found that there is much left for the imagination to use for "finishing off" the counter attack.

Dan Kumite i feel is an excellent advanced kumite with much depth in it if one wants to look for it. However, i feel that it does lack a completion of taking out ones apponent.

Distancing, timming and positioning are very important not to mention the in-tight range that uechi is known for.
Many find fault with pre-arranged drills and some are valid points however, i feel there is much opportunity to gain insight via kumite. Try adding chokes, sweeps, and other various techniques to the end of each set of dan kumite. I think it adds a little feeling of the potential for more effectiveness.

Of course, one who is still learning the basics and thinking about the correct movement #s and sequencing should stay with A,B,C,in my opinion.

Van Sensei makes mention of people like Bob Bethoney and others in their "high power" performing of kumite and bunkai. I might mention that individuals of that caliber and potential are few and exceptional. However, we should all continue upon that road of learning and those of us who are fortunate enough to be teaching certainly have much more opportunity to understand.



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Gary S.

[genjumin]

Van Canna Sensei says:'Genjumin-San, please feel free to give us the benefit of your experience with the prerranged bunkai/kumite execution, from the learning stage to application in combat, and percentage of effectiveness.'

Yes,Sir.I shall be happy to share this with everyone.

I have been exposed to a great many such drills in Okinawan Kenpo, several other styles of shorin ryu, kung fu, T'ai Chi, Aiki arts, Judo, etc.

I do not find them effective unless they are practiced against resistance, with intent, at realistic ranges , and as though you really both mean it.

I believe that by the time one is introduced to such drills , especially at dan level, one should have already trained in realistic defense and counter to every single technique in their system, or why are these being done?

If dan-level karateka are not doing these drills spontaneously, something needs to be reevaluated in karate training.

In Kenpo a series of graduated two-person drills is taught, or used to be, from white belt, involving blocking, punching and kicking against an opponent who is going to unbalance you with a block and control you, or punch or kick through your block, as yo both try to prevail.

In Shorin ryu Matsubayashi, a series of prearranged kumites is taught in a manner known as 'live'Kumite,like Judo Kata are meant to be done, where if you do not do the technique correctly the opponent has license to take you down.

In Judo, goshinjutsu waza are done in a realistic manner-you don't move right, kerwhop!Used to be, anyway.

If kumite/bunkai are done 'live' and dangerous, they work in actual use.

IOkinawan Kenpo Seisan Kumite, there is a move in bunkai where we turn around and ridge hand strke/block to opponent's ar, turn palm down, lock on that arm and pull/smash the opponent into the ground.Done on a mat, you really try to, as both of you stand in seisan stance(sort of a longer sanchin stance) and your opponent resists being pulled off balance by strengthening his stance.

When your opponent is good at resisting, it seems an ineffective technique.But done against someoe not used to the drill , ah- a different story.Let me tell one.

At a dojo once, where Black belts fro different styles in the same city came once a week to train,a man came who could box and kick, full contact, somewhat. This was about 1978.

He fought with some of the black belts in Taekwon Do, then wanted to go with me.I said, 'Sir, I don't think you want to do that.'I knew I didn't-someone was going to be hurt, and it wasn't going to be me, if I could help it.

He said, why don't I?I said, come here and I'll show you why.I got in seisan stance, facing him with morote chuudan kamae.I said, throw a punch.Well, he did- a nice right cross which I locked onto and put him right on the floor on his face.

He got up and said, you're right-I don't want to spar with you.You're saying to me with that stance,'Just come on in and I'll tear you up."

I said,"Oh, you'd have hit me-but you wouldn't have liked the price.'

As Robert Service wrote,'Belike the price of a Jackal's meal was more than they cared to pay.':-)

Iwasn't going to dance with the guy-I was going to take him out, and he knew it.He didn't want any.Pounding on karate tournament players was one thing,messing with someone who seriously was going to hurt him was another.He was a bully.Later when we all went out to a place to eat, he found out I was, in adddition to being a karateka, a Brown Belt Juoka-and he almost went into shock.That scared him!

Yo see, he qwas getting over on the karateka with boxing skills from inside their range-apparently he had found out judo works from body to body range quite well against boxers.

The mindset to have practicing prearranged kumite/bunkai is this:I am going to rip about a pound of stuff out of you and I don't even care what you think you're going to do to me.Or as a lightweight boxer once said(was it Willie Pep?),'While you're having a steakdinner off of me I'm going to have a sandwich or two off of you.

Now this may sond to some like a mach attitude, but really, you have got to have this mindset when you practice techniques designed to defend your lfe and that of others, or what the hell are you doing them for?(Pardon my French, please:-)

And while we are on the subject, if you can't make every move in your first kata work against a real attacker, why are you doing your second, third and fourth?

What is the problem, here?I realize the Okinawan masters did each their own kumite and bunkai,and I know that some of the stuff that is written in stone maybe shouldn't be, but if a technique or drill works if done realistically and is the most efficient way to train realistic responses , it should be kept.Otherwise, I say what are we doing it for?

Van Sensei, you say this has been a frustrating, maybe the most frustrating, aspect of your training.Well, I sure do understand that!

When does an art become set in stone?I understand respect for those who pass on the art to us, but I also understand save your life comes first.If we no longer understand the purposes of a set of prearranged bunkai or kumite, we either need to restudy them until we do, or find out they are flat outdated and come up with something better.

Older isn't always better.I create my own two person drills only when the stuff I got taught seems not to be as good as it should be, then I go right ahead and do it.

Glad you liked the Secret Scrolls.Yes, one should train realistically and the two man drills should be the most realistic training, with real inten(but control), along with properly executed kata and basics.

If they are not, I say, fix them so they are.

And yes, if one fails to take control instantly upon contact with the attacker, why did you come in contact with the attacker?

Otherwise do kata and hit the heavy bag and visualise.These things done incorrectly do more harm than good.

In actual combat, how do prearranged drills work, in my experience?Well, I was blessed with two excellent things:Instructors who believed in constant work on the basics under realistic circumstances, and necessity to make them work, for I was in real circumstances.

Most prearrnged drills I did had to do with blocking and striking, avoiding and timing and countering.They worked just fine in actual situations, just as they were supposed to.But I didn't spend time working on silly stuff, either.

Want to know how to create realistic drills?Look at Olympic Judo training.You isolate every part of a technique and work it to perfection, then you put it all back together and work it with a partner, at first slow and easy, then harer and faster, then finally against opposition, hundreds of times a practice.

Then after a few months, you go on to the next tecnique.You've heard of the book"Everything I need to know I learned in Kindergarten'?

Well, everything I need to know about self defense I learned in Basic Judo.In the first six months, in fact.

Stance, stepping,, breathing, evasion, footwork, grasping the opponent, not letting them grasp you until you were ready, unbalancing, executing, follow through, attention on opponent after finishing.Kake, Kuzushi, Tsukure, Kaboom!:-)(Lock on, destroy foundation(unbalance), execute, Nuke 'em!)

What more can I say?Keep in mind the safety of your training partners, but learn it right or don't learn it at all!

If we aren't training to protect ourselves with martial arts tecniques, either learn the BT and J or DD and F(Back Turn and Jog or Drop, Draw and Fire!:-) Or the DP and F(Duck, Prayand Fight.)Nothing else is going to help and I think we are kidding ourselves especially at Dan level if we don't train better with this stuff.

Respectfully, John Versteeg
Author of the Secret Scrolls of Self Defense, available free on another thread, only here on Uechi Ryu Forums!