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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 1999 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 4
Location: Shubenacadie,Nova Scotia
Hello.
I have a drill that a few of us at the dojo (Shubenacadie,Nova Scotia) have been working on lately; I was hoping that some of you may read the description and give some advice on it.
The drill was thought of to teach applications to the wa-uke block, our mindset was that we practice Kata to learn the self defence moves within the style, fluid movements, etc...(I have a long journy ahead!). However I have only seen one bunkai show one application to the wa-uke, that was Konshu bunkai put together by a local instructor. So which brings me to my long winded point: Myself and some other dojo bums' are working on this drill to show numerous wa-uke uses, could you 'guys' maybe help us out with some critique, advice? Here is the bunkai...
Shin Gi Tai Dojo Wa-Uke Bunkai Number #1

A= attacker, D= defender

Showing wa-uke block to inside of body
1) A in left stance, steps in right lunge punch.
D in left stance, slides back left block.
A throws left reverse punch.
D blocks with right hand, draws both hands back; then slide in and thrust.

Showing wa-uke block to outside of body
2) A in right stance, steps in with left lunge punch.
D in right stance, steps back, left block and hold A's arm to waist.
A throws right reverse punch.
D blocks with right hand tying A's arms up, slide in and push.

Showing application of wa-uke, while changing the timing of the thrust.
3) A in left stance, steps in with right lunge punch.
D in left stance, steps back and blocks with right hand, bringing hand to waist, left hand simultaneously draws back and shoots forward/ upwards striking A's in jaw/chin with thumb knuckle strike. Push away with right hand.

Showing application and fluid transition from downward block to upper block.
4) A in right stance, steps in left front kick.
D in right stance, slides back, right down block.
A throws left jab.
D blocks right hand and grabs, throws left palm heel to A's chest OR left thumb knuckle to throat.

Showing a take down application in wa-uke block.
5) A in left stance, step in with right lunge punch.
D in left stance, slide back, block left hand bringing A's hand to waist, right hand comes across body, roll wrist to turn A's head away, right foot takes Sanchin step around A right foot, continue moving A's upper body via head, then into a take down. Finish with a heel to A's chest OR shoken to ribs.

Showing applications to 5 movements of wa-uke block.
6) A in right stance, slides in with left reverse punch.
D in right stance, step back, right 'check' block.
A in right stance, step in left front kick.
D in left stance, step back, left down block.
A in left stance, step in right front kick.
D in right stance, step back, left 'cross' block.
A in right stance, throws right jab.
D in left stance, blocks with left hand, pulling A's arm to waist and counters with palm heel to A's chin.

Thanks.
Scott Taylor


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 1999 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 396
Location: Victoria BC
Hi,

I'd love to know what's going on here - don't forget, if you want to keep those of us from other traditions interested (since this is an international and inter ryu forum), don't show off with Uechi exclusive insider stuff...Please explain your terms for those of us less fortunate.

Karate trained since 1972 and I never heard of wa uke...

------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 1999 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17137
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Allow me first to be a bit pedantic. To be precise, there are three types of kumite (fighting): bunkai (interpretation), yakusoku (prearranged), and jiyu (freeform). Technically speaking, this is a yakusoku kumite. Those familiar with the Japanese language find the name of the new Shohei exercise (Yakusoku kumite) to be a bit puzzling. That's like calling your dog by the name dog. Oh well...

Scott

Good for you. I mentally did your kumite and I think it's workable. I'd have to play with it a bit with several different size partners to see how well it flows. I have a few comments.

I have seen moves like what you are trying to do in several different styles. The hand trapping moves are typical of Wing Chun gung fu. That style is a cousin to our Uechi ryu. While your applications may be a bit stiff, I believe you could work the kinks out by adjusting the foot movement and making it a light-and-fast exchange. Again, you'll need to spend time on the dojo floor with quality opponents to do that. See if you can get a hold of any tapes of Wing Chun people doing hand-trapping sequences. You'll see exactly what I mean.

As for the blocks and thrusts or pushes, this is very typical of what I have seen in Tomiki method of aikido. They use inside and outside circle blocks to redirect attacks and then toss the partner away. Skilled practioners actually try to take advantage of the natural reflexes and/or momentum of the opponent. In other words, for your number 1 sequence one might try to pull the opponent just enough to make him/her reflexively pull back. Once you sense the pullback, then you slide in with your thrust and "help" them with what they are trying to do. If there is furniture or uneven terrain behind the attacker, then you can toss the person in that direction. The difference between these aikido moves and Uechi ryu is that our palm-heel pushes or thrusts can instead use the features of the boshiken - the thumb and the tips of the finger. In an exchange where a partner may want to resist your push to the face, fingers in the eye or thumb in the throat area are great for an attitude adjustment.

IF I WERE TO BE CRITICAL.... I do find your choice of stances to be a bit unusual (often starting in right stance). But there are similar attacks in kyu kumite. Also your yakusoku kumite attacks show an annoying tendancy to be stiff and unrealistic like all the other Uechi Okinawan kumite of EVERY school. NOBODY attacks you with stepping lunge punches. It's so artificial! But....I guess one needs to start with something simple before transitioning to what one would do in a more realistic exchange. So....maybe it's fine after all.

Great work!! Keep it up and let us know how it goes.

- Bill


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 1:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 4
Location: Shubenacadie,Nova Scotia
Thanks Bill, for your critique mostly.
I too 'see' the stiffness you are talking about, and the unnatural oi-zuki attacks. The reason we used them (we spent a few hours yesterday in the dojo working on them, Daniel...yesterdays uke was a bit sore today! hehe) was to have a basis to start. Do you think this is a good basis for beginners to work with?
I am against stiff unnatural movement myself, we work a lot on fluid defences to grabs, pushes, etc. However I thought maybe a slow, somewhat stiff sequence was a good place to start...Then I ask around on how to improve!
As for foot work, The right/ left/ right foot pattern was for ease of learning. As with our kata and kumites at the dojo we do everything from both sides. The foot work probably isn't important; just as long as it works!...comments?
(not trying to justify my thoughts, just want to know if I am on the right track Image)
Thanks again,
Scott Taylor


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 3:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 181
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Mr. Taylor:

Thanks for sharing your applications with us. Though you have asked for comments, I have a question...why do all your defenses start with moving back? I know most of our kumite defenses begin with movements back, but where in the kata do we move back to apply a wa uke. (Yes, Bill, I know we do move back with the block as we turn 180 degrees, but this movement is best apprectiated by watching low post play in the NBA as opposed to prearranged kumite.) OK, OK, OK, I know every movement forward is a movement back, every block is an attack, every attack is a defense, etc. But, we do move forward in the kata into the wa uke.

WHEW, thanks for letting me vent!!!

While I try and incorporate use of the wa uke into several self defense applications, my favorite de jour is to apply the wa uke to a slashing knife attack.

As the attacker slashes in with his or her right hand, I have the defender step into the attack with a wa uke. The movement can be done with an intent to damage the attacker, with one of those applications of the block that the Kadena folks are so fond of using,(that punch me and I will break you like a baseball bat attitude) or one can be less physical and more circular and trap the attacker's wrist in the bend of the circle blocking arm while trapping with the other hand (you know, posting the opposite hand at the elbow, like the kata).

This application allows for one to practice moving into an attack...not a particularly natural thing for most of us to do...and apply the wa uke almost directly out of the kata. I caution, however, that when done correctly, there is pain involved for the attacker, and partners must exercise caution to avoid the attacking partner being hurt. We rely on tapping out.

Again, thanks for sharing. Peace. Robb in Sacramento


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 4:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 19, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 4
Location: Shubenacadie,Nova Scotia
Hi Robb,
I step back in the defence, mainly because this is an easy way to avoid an attack, I see your point about Katas moving forwards, most of them do, you however answered your question in your post to me about that, you step in to your knife defence with the wa-uke, kata movements can negotiate against weapons; and to deal with weapons you move in (especially edged ones).
The only time I move back against weapons (I have had to) is to run.
It would be easier to me to learn how to move in towards an attack (weapon) because the timing has to be better, and the 'safety' distance is different(Where is the knife harmless? Where you are holding it) and then add a empty hand application (yield) after (Where is the punch harmless? 2 inches in front of it); rather then the other way around.
That is how I see it anyways.
We practice what we call PK or practical kata, where the kata is done the same way except you yield naturally and move to the rear/side when blocking instead of moving forwards.
I like to use the "...you are backed up into a parked car and can retreat no more.." to teach lateral movement.
What do you think about that explanation? Do you move in to any weapon attacks?
Scott.


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 4:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 181
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Mr. Taylor:

I believe karate, when applied in a practical sense, is much like landing a plane, if you walk away, the landing went well. But, I am not sure that backing up in the kata adds an element of "practical." Either the folks who passed this on to us were playing an incredible game of hide the ball (We'll have these people continually practice moving forward when we really mean for them to be moving back) or they didn't know what they were doing, which should cause us to ask why the heck we do it then.

If we look at our grappling martial arts brothers and sisters, they seem to spend considerable time learning to move into their opponents, to blend their ki with the offensive energy of the opponent, and to use this force against the attack. My Shotokan instructor would ask people during sparring who moved back to show him which kata they were using for the moving back technique.

If the kata moves forward, generally, where should our focus be in application (not an answer, just a question)?


As to moving to the side or lateral movement, it is one of the reasons I enjoy practicing the Naihanchi kata of Shorin Ryu or the Tekki kata of Shotokan. But our kata in Uechi Ryu is rich in lateral movement, from the closing movements of San Chin, to the subtle shifts in San Sei Ryu, we move to the side in Uechi as well as any other style.

I suspect the reason we move back in our prearrange kumite is to avoid killing each other. It is often difficult enough to avoid hurting a training partner during a spirited session of prearranged kumite. If we were moving forward, it's likely the injury rate would increase. BUT, I meant no criticism by my observation of your defensive movement. Lets face it, for most of us, the natural reaction to an attack is to get out of the way, which for most of us means moving back.

Peace. Robb in Sacramento


[This message has been edited by Robb in Sacramento (edited 11-11-99).]

[This message has been edited by Robb in Sacramento (edited 11-11-99).]


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 5:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 106
Location: Andover,MA
Wa-Uke is a circular block ment to cover your face and upper torso.

Theory goes that since the same block is used to cover the face and upper torso, there is no real need for several different types of blocks depending on the strike given. Face punch use the wa-uke, chest punch, use the wa-uke, hook punch, Wa-uke. So on and so on.


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 5:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 671
Ted, what Scott is working on is a Bunkai(choreographed drill) (although perhaps should be called a kumite as bunkais usually track the kata movements, someone more knowlegdeable can answer this one)using applications of the Wa-uke circular block from Sanchin and other kata's from the Uechi and other Okinawan styles. It is an application used in the kata but as yet not incorporated in its entirety into any bunkai or kumite.

This has two strike points, low to the body off the front Sanchin stance foot, high on the opposite side. Where the strike target is, is open to discussion and Scott addresses several areas along with some grabbing and striking going on.

Go to the FTP site and look at Mattson Sensei's folder or Scott Danzinger's folder for a quick look at the movement. I believe the Mpegs are still there, as I can't seem to get to the site at this time.

As far as critique Scott, I have to print it out and study it a bit. My feeble mind cannot turn the text into a visual image that easily. Nevertheless, nothing wrong with innovation.

Kevin


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
When you move back you give the opponent the opportunity for further action coming toward you. The more you do this the more momentum they gain.

The Wa-Uke has a host of Chin-na/Seizing and Locking inherent in it's motion as well as excellent closing and some grappling application. It is a very serious method of attack however, with several targets (including leg attacks mostly overlooked when applying this Kata move). Not getting into the plethera of Nerve targets, but rather anatomically weak areas...one set could be hitting with the Palm or Bushiken to the first floating rib (possibility to pierce the Kidney (lower hand) and the Carotid (upper hand) with one shot. This keeps your momentum, gets you past most peoples comfortable strike range and it really, really hurts. (Done right it can break the foot, knee and offer a takedown al in one striking thrust, short sweet and to the point.

Robb San,

If you consider all moves out of Nai Han Chi as forward motion you can increase pain to the opponent. The side motion telling you to move in and twist or stretch or push them to make them conform to the move.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho




[This message has been edited by Evan Pantazi (edited 11-11-99).]


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 1999 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 396
Location: Victoria BC
Got it.

Our sister style is Gju Ryu and they call this block 'mawashi uke' - and translate it as roundhouse block, like the mawashi geri - roundhouse kick.
thanks,

------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 1999 12:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
I know this isn't the same topic, but as we are talking about the wa-uke and subsequent strike, does anyone else have reservations about the strike as it is found in Dan Kumite? Personally, I do not teach the kumite in that fashion as I do not see the effectiveness in the strike as demonstrated. I don't see how anyone can do much damage with the bushikens to a person who's momentum is carrying them away from the strike.

Any comments?

Yours in budo,

Mike


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 Post subject: wa-uke bunkai
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 1999 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Mike

I can't figure out which Dan kumite strike you speak of.

However as a grappling martial artist (jiujitsu I presume), I would think that maybe you answered your own question. I know my aikido was filled with tosses and pushes. This doesn't seem like much until you consider that:

1) you can toss opponent A into opponent B so that you can crush opponent C one-on-one, or

2) many fights occur indoors or even outdoors under less-than-ideal floor circumstances. One of my favorite "for real" self defense situations involves one where three people were messing with me. As I was walking down the sidewalk, one guy was walking backwards in front of me, mouthing off at me and baiting me to fight. The other two were following closely behind me. Let's see now, what's going to happen when I pop this guy in front of me right in the mouth? Duhhhh... Basically I walked the mouthy person right into the path of a speeding car - without even touching him. Only luck and the reaction of the driver kept him alive.

So...a little "help" can take controlled momentum and turn it into a crash course with - at the very least - the good earth. You know, high speed dirt. On many of these "shoves", I find the thumb and/or the fingers to be very effective at helping you break someone's center or even grabbing them to manipulate their orientation.

Just some possibilities...

Let me know which Dan kumite sequence you are referring to.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-15-99).]


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