We hear how Kanbun vowed never to teach karate after one of his students in China killed someone. Also we hear how karate was altered and taught differently in Japan by Funakoshi (who obviously knew things like kyusho-there's at least one photo of him at an advanced age doing exactly what Pantazi Sensei does) Does anyone have the sneaking suspicion that the "official" uechi bunkai were purposefully made up to take the place of more deadly or debilitating applications? This way the art could be preserved and spread without creating a bunch of unsupervised amoral killers. I just wonder if Kanei and Kanmei were shown something entirely different from what we practice in kumite and bunkai. Maybe even they weren't taught the kyusho. In my post "pot of gold", there is an example of someone who has knowledge that he considers to be like having a loaded gun always in his hands. I quote "There's no way in hell I would teach this to my kids. No f'n way!"
What do you think?
------------------
sean
watered down?
Moderator: Available
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
watered down?
I've seen this very topic debated on the kyusho forum. I don't think there's a simple answer. To a large part, it depends on what style you are talking about.
To start with, nobody has really substantiated that kyusho and/or tuite are the holy grail in martial arts. Yes, there's a lot of important information here. Yes, everyone learns to target with time. Yes, there are martial artists that devote their career to it. But no, kyusho isn't a tight body of proven information that can be used in all cases. As it is taught by "the old way" - complete with 5 element theory, yin yang, chi, etc, it is way to complex for the average practitioner. The larger body of knowledge is the "academic" playground of the masters, with specific applications being taught to students who want a handful of sure techniques. Furthermore, some (like Van) believe few martial artists ever get good enough to be that precise in their motions when facing deadly force. One may instead elect to rely on overwhelming power and training in lieu of the more precise striking route.
I don't believe our prearranged kumite and bunkai were really ever meant to be that specific or that "deadly". To a large part, one needs to make the attacks and defenses fairly simple and safe to make it easy to teach to a broader audience. This doesn't necessarily mean individuals intentionally held information back. It just means you start simple and practice in a safe manner. On many occasions I need to demostrate to students the REAL application, and then show them why we need to break it up into a generic and safe routine.
There are some who believe many Okinawan stylists have lost the art of kyusho, or do not believe it to be relevant. Certainly there has been a change in attitude about the art that has matched the environment in which it has been practiced. Karate jutsu was all about protecting oneself and one's family. Karate do is industry and lifestyle as part of a civilized culture. Certainly when you consider the changes needed to bring it out of secrecy and into public school cirricula, then one needs to teach a different way and with a different emphasis. What was once considered an underground activity now vies for respectability in society.
- Bill
To start with, nobody has really substantiated that kyusho and/or tuite are the holy grail in martial arts. Yes, there's a lot of important information here. Yes, everyone learns to target with time. Yes, there are martial artists that devote their career to it. But no, kyusho isn't a tight body of proven information that can be used in all cases. As it is taught by "the old way" - complete with 5 element theory, yin yang, chi, etc, it is way to complex for the average practitioner. The larger body of knowledge is the "academic" playground of the masters, with specific applications being taught to students who want a handful of sure techniques. Furthermore, some (like Van) believe few martial artists ever get good enough to be that precise in their motions when facing deadly force. One may instead elect to rely on overwhelming power and training in lieu of the more precise striking route.
I don't believe our prearranged kumite and bunkai were really ever meant to be that specific or that "deadly". To a large part, one needs to make the attacks and defenses fairly simple and safe to make it easy to teach to a broader audience. This doesn't necessarily mean individuals intentionally held information back. It just means you start simple and practice in a safe manner. On many occasions I need to demostrate to students the REAL application, and then show them why we need to break it up into a generic and safe routine.
There are some who believe many Okinawan stylists have lost the art of kyusho, or do not believe it to be relevant. Certainly there has been a change in attitude about the art that has matched the environment in which it has been practiced. Karate jutsu was all about protecting oneself and one's family. Karate do is industry and lifestyle as part of a civilized culture. Certainly when you consider the changes needed to bring it out of secrecy and into public school cirricula, then one needs to teach a different way and with a different emphasis. What was once considered an underground activity now vies for respectability in society.
- Bill
-
J. Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 6:01 am
watered down?
The Great Mystery. It helps sell martial arts.
Psychologically, it's easier for people to believe that the old masters were much better, they knew the secrets. It's a comforting thought to a lot of folks. "All I have to do is these 'special movements' that were passed down through the passages of time (after all they have special meaning because they are Taoist or Buddhist or something) and I'll be invicibile, just like Master (fill in the blank)." Isn't it funny how many martial artists will claim that they 'discovered' the lost secret. Look at any issue of Black Belt the last 30 years. Or better yet, they were a student, the only real true student of so and so who passed down the real information. "Only I know the true secrets and will only pass them on to my inner students." Doesn't everyone want to be an inner student?
(Please no disrespect Sean) When someone states that they have such deadly techniques that they wouldn't dream about teaching them to their kids, I have to question it. Either, the gentleman is trying to quietly toot his own horn (again the quiet Kwai Chang Caine approach. Hey, don't we all want to believe that there are people out there like that), or he did a pretty bad job bringing up his kids because he can't trust them.
What I'm trying to say is, it's okay to question. In fact, it's what we should be doing. It's even okay to romance the history, we just have to keep it in perspective.
just some thoughts,
Joe
Psychologically, it's easier for people to believe that the old masters were much better, they knew the secrets. It's a comforting thought to a lot of folks. "All I have to do is these 'special movements' that were passed down through the passages of time (after all they have special meaning because they are Taoist or Buddhist or something) and I'll be invicibile, just like Master (fill in the blank)." Isn't it funny how many martial artists will claim that they 'discovered' the lost secret. Look at any issue of Black Belt the last 30 years. Or better yet, they were a student, the only real true student of so and so who passed down the real information. "Only I know the true secrets and will only pass them on to my inner students." Doesn't everyone want to be an inner student?
(Please no disrespect Sean) When someone states that they have such deadly techniques that they wouldn't dream about teaching them to their kids, I have to question it. Either, the gentleman is trying to quietly toot his own horn (again the quiet Kwai Chang Caine approach. Hey, don't we all want to believe that there are people out there like that), or he did a pretty bad job bringing up his kids because he can't trust them.
What I'm trying to say is, it's okay to question. In fact, it's what we should be doing. It's even okay to romance the history, we just have to keep it in perspective.
just some thoughts,
Joe
watered down?
Joe,
You bring up a recurring theme. I wish I had a buck for each “Oriental trained”, pompous ass know it all , fresh from overseas I have met over the long years, who would bend my ear about the secrets he had learned, but when asked to show them to me, they would invariably respond with “ You wouldn’t understand”! That kind of arrogance was, in my opinion, a slap in the face of their esteemed Oriental teachers!
Then these “enfants terribles” would end up shining the floor of Mattson-sensei’s legendary Cambridge street Shubukan at the end of spinning back kicks launched by the students from my diverse sparring class made up of practitioners from a number of styles! Many a time I witnessed some of these “supermen” getting their heads kicked in by a skilled Tae Kwon Do visitor to my class!
And the deception continues today! But when it counts, Joe, these people remain very conspicuous by their absence, i.e., where will they be Saturday night during the Vale Tudo competition?
------------------
Van Canna
You bring up a recurring theme. I wish I had a buck for each “Oriental trained”, pompous ass know it all , fresh from overseas I have met over the long years, who would bend my ear about the secrets he had learned, but when asked to show them to me, they would invariably respond with “ You wouldn’t understand”! That kind of arrogance was, in my opinion, a slap in the face of their esteemed Oriental teachers!
Then these “enfants terribles” would end up shining the floor of Mattson-sensei’s legendary Cambridge street Shubukan at the end of spinning back kicks launched by the students from my diverse sparring class made up of practitioners from a number of styles! Many a time I witnessed some of these “supermen” getting their heads kicked in by a skilled Tae Kwon Do visitor to my class!
And the deception continues today! But when it counts, Joe, these people remain very conspicuous by their absence, i.e., where will they be Saturday night during the Vale Tudo competition?
------------------
Van Canna
watered down?
Okay senseis!(especially Canna!) 
I can relate to everything that's been said so far. It's scary to think of the combined experience and expertise behind those 3 posts. What about the question of whether Uechi ryu might not be exactly what Kanbun learned in China? Not whether it's any good or not! I personally think it's an amazing art! Maybe no one knows. I certainly don't, but then again, I don't know s--t. Just wondering what people might think.
------------------
sean
I can relate to everything that's been said so far. It's scary to think of the combined experience and expertise behind those 3 posts. What about the question of whether Uechi ryu might not be exactly what Kanbun learned in China? Not whether it's any good or not! I personally think it's an amazing art! Maybe no one knows. I certainly don't, but then again, I don't know s--t. Just wondering what people might think.
------------------
sean
watered down?
Was karate, Uechi ryu included, watered down by Kanbun or someone after him, were secrets taken out, are kyusho and tuite the Holy Grail or is power trainig the answer?
Good questions, I don't have all the answers but I have a couple thoughts.
1. Training is not done the way it used to be done in the U.S., even in the early to mid seventies dojos had longer and harder workous than people seem to have time for now.
Plus candy dancers, lotus eaters and dojo deadlies abound, who move with elegant glissades through their kata and kicks of whatever style.
We used to run into many of them even as late as the early seventies, used to like to invite 'em to our dojo and spar 'em.Heh, heh.:-)
Just hitting the air is not enough, though if you hit the air it is good to move with tremendous power 'cause most people do not.
Makiwara and bag work, these will separate the men from the boys quick enough, to use a non pc expression, and the women from the girls, as well.
People do not train in many cases as they used to, the intention is just not there, and fantasy sets in.
You hit a heavy bag and hear a 'smack' sound, bag barely moves, and this was your best technique, guess which category you are in.
Why do you think you can drop a real attacker?
Kyusho are in fact hard to hit in a real fight, but there are vulnerable joints and zones that are much easier and 'shotgun' techniques, as it were, can be used to hit them.Pantazzi Sensei uses a number of these, as well, and has so stated on one of these forums.
Power works.But if you don't train for it, you won't have it when ou need it.This is one area where, TC training for instance, is real stuff and not watered down at all.How do I know this? Because I have a slightly similar practice in my own related style.
Do it right, you gonna be sore afterwards, but good.
Secrets?I think kata have many applications but the one you will use in a fight for your life may not be one taught, at all.
Like as not it will be a quite simple body mechanics application.
Might not even be a technique at all, per se.Just a move, or part of a move.
Secrets.What are the real secrets of the martial art? Moves so deadly they can kill, that you may well forget when you freeze up?Or is it a spirit, an attitude and a way of training for life that changes the way you fundamentally react in a crisis, no matter what you physically do about it?
What are the secrets of the martial arts?Aren't they those things we are all taught as white belts but tend to forget in the onrush of information that follows?
'Glare in the eyes with fast hands.'
'Every time you move, you hit 'em. Every time you hit 'em, you hurt 'em.'
Never retreat straight back.
Block to unbalance or block to hurt.
Step to the side.
Get your hands up.
step in a crescent.Go right around a linear attack,straight into a circling one.
Stuff like this. It hasn't been forgotten.
Karate hasn't gotten watered down, training has.
Genjumin
Good questions, I don't have all the answers but I have a couple thoughts.
1. Training is not done the way it used to be done in the U.S., even in the early to mid seventies dojos had longer and harder workous than people seem to have time for now.
Plus candy dancers, lotus eaters and dojo deadlies abound, who move with elegant glissades through their kata and kicks of whatever style.
We used to run into many of them even as late as the early seventies, used to like to invite 'em to our dojo and spar 'em.Heh, heh.:-)
Just hitting the air is not enough, though if you hit the air it is good to move with tremendous power 'cause most people do not.
Makiwara and bag work, these will separate the men from the boys quick enough, to use a non pc expression, and the women from the girls, as well.
People do not train in many cases as they used to, the intention is just not there, and fantasy sets in.
You hit a heavy bag and hear a 'smack' sound, bag barely moves, and this was your best technique, guess which category you are in.
Why do you think you can drop a real attacker?
Kyusho are in fact hard to hit in a real fight, but there are vulnerable joints and zones that are much easier and 'shotgun' techniques, as it were, can be used to hit them.Pantazzi Sensei uses a number of these, as well, and has so stated on one of these forums.
Power works.But if you don't train for it, you won't have it when ou need it.This is one area where, TC training for instance, is real stuff and not watered down at all.How do I know this? Because I have a slightly similar practice in my own related style.
Do it right, you gonna be sore afterwards, but good.
Secrets?I think kata have many applications but the one you will use in a fight for your life may not be one taught, at all.
Like as not it will be a quite simple body mechanics application.
Might not even be a technique at all, per se.Just a move, or part of a move.
Secrets.What are the real secrets of the martial art? Moves so deadly they can kill, that you may well forget when you freeze up?Or is it a spirit, an attitude and a way of training for life that changes the way you fundamentally react in a crisis, no matter what you physically do about it?
What are the secrets of the martial arts?Aren't they those things we are all taught as white belts but tend to forget in the onrush of information that follows?
'Glare in the eyes with fast hands.'
'Every time you move, you hit 'em. Every time you hit 'em, you hurt 'em.'
Never retreat straight back.
Block to unbalance or block to hurt.
Step to the side.
Get your hands up.
step in a crescent.Go right around a linear attack,straight into a circling one.
Stuff like this. It hasn't been forgotten.
Karate hasn't gotten watered down, training has.
Genjumin
watered down?
A Nother thought, kata is a vehicle fortraining, not an end in itself.
In older times, one kata used to be taught and practiced from three to ten years as a vehicle for training.
The techniques and parts of techniques were honed and perfected to razor sharpness and extreme power and speed of execution with terrific precision, and targeted on the vulnerable areas of anatomy, with conditioned anatomicl weapons.
People in Okinawa who didn't even know karate used to have makiwara in there backyards to punch daily at, couple hundred times a day on left fist, hundred or so on right fist, just in case.
Lots practitioners today don't ever hit a solid object in training even in advanced levels.
Kata as a vehicle for training implied forging the body into a weapon using the kata as the reservoir of movement and technique, but taking it apart into ts smallest portions, perfecting, oing and conditioning each part, and then reassemling the whole kata, maybe at the three year point, to practice as a whole excercise from then on.
Who does this today?Yes, he does:-),and so should anyone who wonders if karate is watered down.
Praticing the opening of sanchin against a willow tree branch ever day for a year is a concept forewign totoday's practitioners for the most part, but one known in older times in the mystic but somehow very practical Orient.
It is the concept of kung fu, skill developed over time through special training, that has been largely lost in modern martial artists orientation.
I remember the Indonesian Kuontao teacher who taught us, not techniques, but ways to perfect them.
Steparound front side kicks were trained on a rickety sawhorse(don't try this one, you can get hurt, believe me).
Front kicks were trained to be non telegraphic by holding a staff in front of the centerline in front of a mirror and kicking high, trying to stop the body and head from swaying from side to side.
Side kick was trained lying on the floor on your side kicking straight up from the floor at a ninety degree angle.Really works the hips.
Wa uke was trained softly but swiftly with a parter punching at you from a stance six inches in front of you, bot of you blindfolded,practice and power gradually were stepped up, you learned to block, period.Kuontao was Southern Shaolin Tiger style.
Never even ;learned the first form, but they sure had some trining methods. Other circular blocks, strikes and punches were rained byholdig a staff while doing them, forcing you to do all techniques in perfect arcs and semicircles and circles.
Old kung fu methods force the student into doing things right, every time, or paying an instant price of pain.
Secrets of karate? You bet.Do it right or we're gonna do it all night!:-)
Who anymore perfects individual movements and makes them strong, fast and right?Who anymore cares?
Secrets of karate.Black belts will be putty in your hands.Fear no man.
Genjumin
In older times, one kata used to be taught and practiced from three to ten years as a vehicle for training.
The techniques and parts of techniques were honed and perfected to razor sharpness and extreme power and speed of execution with terrific precision, and targeted on the vulnerable areas of anatomy, with conditioned anatomicl weapons.
People in Okinawa who didn't even know karate used to have makiwara in there backyards to punch daily at, couple hundred times a day on left fist, hundred or so on right fist, just in case.
Lots practitioners today don't ever hit a solid object in training even in advanced levels.
Kata as a vehicle for training implied forging the body into a weapon using the kata as the reservoir of movement and technique, but taking it apart into ts smallest portions, perfecting, oing and conditioning each part, and then reassemling the whole kata, maybe at the three year point, to practice as a whole excercise from then on.
Who does this today?Yes, he does:-),and so should anyone who wonders if karate is watered down.
Praticing the opening of sanchin against a willow tree branch ever day for a year is a concept forewign totoday's practitioners for the most part, but one known in older times in the mystic but somehow very practical Orient.
It is the concept of kung fu, skill developed over time through special training, that has been largely lost in modern martial artists orientation.
I remember the Indonesian Kuontao teacher who taught us, not techniques, but ways to perfect them.
Steparound front side kicks were trained on a rickety sawhorse(don't try this one, you can get hurt, believe me).
Front kicks were trained to be non telegraphic by holding a staff in front of the centerline in front of a mirror and kicking high, trying to stop the body and head from swaying from side to side.
Side kick was trained lying on the floor on your side kicking straight up from the floor at a ninety degree angle.Really works the hips.
Wa uke was trained softly but swiftly with a parter punching at you from a stance six inches in front of you, bot of you blindfolded,practice and power gradually were stepped up, you learned to block, period.Kuontao was Southern Shaolin Tiger style.
Never even ;learned the first form, but they sure had some trining methods. Other circular blocks, strikes and punches were rained byholdig a staff while doing them, forcing you to do all techniques in perfect arcs and semicircles and circles.
Old kung fu methods force the student into doing things right, every time, or paying an instant price of pain.
Secrets of karate? You bet.Do it right or we're gonna do it all night!:-)
Who anymore perfects individual movements and makes them strong, fast and right?Who anymore cares?
Secrets of karate.Black belts will be putty in your hands.Fear no man.
Genjumin
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
watered down?
Some great comments are listed in these posts. Genjumin San nailed it the best by stating "Karate hasn't gotten watered down, training has".
The so called watering down continues into this new century via Mr. Blanks. Now I find nothing wrong with what he is doing except the perception that it is Martial Arts (I know he hasn't claimed it was but the marketing, look at the marketing). You need to hit things and get used to it, training devices for power and confidence, people to get past that syndrome of not wanting contact (giving or taking). I find most of the new people to the Arts come in squemish about hitting (or even touching another) or being hit.
Also the attention span and focus of more and more people each day is severly deminished....a 2 hour class...no way. I can get away with 45 minute classes (even with adults but I refuse to), yeah it's not even the same from 10 years ago. However there are still the schools around teaching good solid Arts and that is the way it probably will be always, little pockets of truth scattered along the countryside.
Joe San made a great point in that the Masters of Old were victims (some willing) of propaganda...there just humans, with incredible experiences, tenacity and that certain something that made them strong, but still human.
Kyoshi Canna also points to the professors of secret technique being wiped up off the matt from a "basics boy"...gotta be able to take it as much as dish it out. Something else I've seen is some Older Sensei's trying to do things the way they always did...(high kicks, spinning moves, technically difficult moves)...and can't anymore (of course not in their minds eye), making a really emabarrasing showing.
Now for some backup on Kyusho (it's not just a job, it's an adventure):
Glasheen Sensei is abosolutely correct (and I am Not on JD's payroll either), about Kyusho not being the Holy Grail of the Arts. If you can't get to the point then it won't be worth it, however targeting weaker areas is still a must, you can't just tell someone to hit to the head without refinement in technique, targeting and or weaponry (look what happened to Tyson's hands after training that way, only to taste the reality). The Art itself points to it's use...just look at all those small surface areas in Kata (knuckles and shokens and bushikens, Oh My), it's not just to look pretty.
Genjumin San was right these points can be hard to hit in a real life threatening situation...but only as hard as hitting an eye (same size), it's all in how you train. This is demanding of harder work in the accuracy department, but people isn't this what the higher ranks are supposed to be taught, able to do...work with finer and more devastaing precision.
Sean C San, it's in there, but the training is hard, does not yield quick result's, and that's the beauty as only those who commit to the Arts for their life will see (especially as time drains the speed, power and endurance) it's necessary.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
The so called watering down continues into this new century via Mr. Blanks. Now I find nothing wrong with what he is doing except the perception that it is Martial Arts (I know he hasn't claimed it was but the marketing, look at the marketing). You need to hit things and get used to it, training devices for power and confidence, people to get past that syndrome of not wanting contact (giving or taking). I find most of the new people to the Arts come in squemish about hitting (or even touching another) or being hit.
Also the attention span and focus of more and more people each day is severly deminished....a 2 hour class...no way. I can get away with 45 minute classes (even with adults but I refuse to), yeah it's not even the same from 10 years ago. However there are still the schools around teaching good solid Arts and that is the way it probably will be always, little pockets of truth scattered along the countryside.
Joe San made a great point in that the Masters of Old were victims (some willing) of propaganda...there just humans, with incredible experiences, tenacity and that certain something that made them strong, but still human.
Kyoshi Canna also points to the professors of secret technique being wiped up off the matt from a "basics boy"...gotta be able to take it as much as dish it out. Something else I've seen is some Older Sensei's trying to do things the way they always did...(high kicks, spinning moves, technically difficult moves)...and can't anymore (of course not in their minds eye), making a really emabarrasing showing.
Now for some backup on Kyusho (it's not just a job, it's an adventure):
Glasheen Sensei is abosolutely correct (and I am Not on JD's payroll either), about Kyusho not being the Holy Grail of the Arts. If you can't get to the point then it won't be worth it, however targeting weaker areas is still a must, you can't just tell someone to hit to the head without refinement in technique, targeting and or weaponry (look what happened to Tyson's hands after training that way, only to taste the reality). The Art itself points to it's use...just look at all those small surface areas in Kata (knuckles and shokens and bushikens, Oh My), it's not just to look pretty.
Genjumin San was right these points can be hard to hit in a real life threatening situation...but only as hard as hitting an eye (same size), it's all in how you train. This is demanding of harder work in the accuracy department, but people isn't this what the higher ranks are supposed to be taught, able to do...work with finer and more devastaing precision.
Sean C San, it's in there, but the training is hard, does not yield quick result's, and that's the beauty as only those who commit to the Arts for their life will see (especially as time drains the speed, power and endurance) it's necessary.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
watered down?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Evan Pantazi:
.
Now for some backup on Kyusho (it's not just a job, it's an adventure):
Glasheen Sensei is abosolutely correct (and I am Not on JD's payroll either), about Kyusho not being the Holy Grail of the Arts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dear Pantazi-Sensei:
This is to bring to your attention (see quotation above) that someone has gotten hold of your identification and is posting in your name!
You may want to take steps.
(Crescent steps, half-moon steps, whatever....)
Respectfully,
student
.
Now for some backup on Kyusho (it's not just a job, it's an adventure):
Glasheen Sensei is abosolutely correct (and I am Not on JD's payroll either), about Kyusho not being the Holy Grail of the Arts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dear Pantazi-Sensei:
This is to bring to your attention (see quotation above) that someone has gotten hold of your identification and is posting in your name!
You may want to take steps.
(Crescent steps, half-moon steps, whatever....)
Respectfully,
student
-
Raffi Derderian
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Johnston, RI
- Contact:
watered down?
"karate hasn't been watered down, only the training has"....I may start putting that in my advertising. Well, maybe not, but I may put it up on the bulliten board of my dojo. It is the best line I have read in a long time. I also believe it does NOT apply to the majority of people on these forums.
Hey, where is the Vale Tudo tournament in RI tomorrow night??? I'd like to see it.
Raf
Hey, where is the Vale Tudo tournament in RI tomorrow night??? I'd like to see it.
Raf
watered down?
All,
Not only passionate, but very informative replys. Good reading! I wish I could spend all of every day learning and practicing. Guess I'll have to become a teacher some day.
------------------
sean
Not only passionate, but very informative replys. Good reading! I wish I could spend all of every day learning and practicing. Guess I'll have to become a teacher some day.
------------------
sean
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
watered down?
Is this why I have so few people show up for my 2 hour advanced workouts?
-
maurice richard libby
watered down?
Sean et alia ,
It might be well to remember that:
a) karate is an Art, and as such, is always a process of striving for perfection; and
b)any Art that has been perfected is a dead Art; and
c)innovation within a tradition is the most powerful expression of respect.
just a thought (or two),
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
It might be well to remember that:
a) karate is an Art, and as such, is always a process of striving for perfection; and
b)any Art that has been perfected is a dead Art; and
c)innovation within a tradition is the most powerful expression of respect.
just a thought (or two),
maurice
------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large
-
Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
watered down?
Student San,
There are so many different ways to defeat an opponent (there are no perfect Arts)....but if you don't want to leave evidence!!!
------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
There are so many different ways to defeat an opponent (there are no perfect Arts)....but if you don't want to leave evidence!!!
------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
-
paul giella
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
watered down?
Is it conceivable that Uechi-ryu, or martial arts in general, are even better now than they were in the "ancient" days? The ancients did not have the longevity, the exposure to the larger world, the knowledge of anatomy and physiology, the scientific principles of research and development that we have available to us. And they didn't have Mattson, Canna, Cambell, Rabesa et al either!
