Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
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Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Truth hurts doesn't it Fellas!
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
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Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Lone Wolf,
A question, and this is an honest one.
Is the purpose behind your post(s) to engender a discussion on the value of groundfighting, or is it to say that karate in any form is useless and we should all take up grappling (or whatever art you practice)?
If it's the former, than I would suggest that you might reword your language. Many of your posts are quite antagonistic, and are driving people away from your point.
If it's the latter, I suggest you take the arguement and go somewhere else. For better or worse, I doubt that the people on these forums are likely to abandon their years of training on your say-so.
Food for thought.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
A question, and this is an honest one.
Is the purpose behind your post(s) to engender a discussion on the value of groundfighting, or is it to say that karate in any form is useless and we should all take up grappling (or whatever art you practice)?
If it's the former, than I would suggest that you might reword your language. Many of your posts are quite antagonistic, and are driving people away from your point.
If it's the latter, I suggest you take the arguement and go somewhere else. For better or worse, I doubt that the people on these forums are likely to abandon their years of training on your say-so.
Food for thought.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Great to see some Uechi Grapplers in on this conversation!
Mike and Joe Sensei's,
Where do you see throwing and grappling in the Uechi forms? Can you train this by doing kata (a one man form.) I notice Judo calls some of thier exercises "kata" but they are two-person sets, like our bunkai or kumite. I need to get some sparring experience with some judoka or jujitsuka(?) obviously, but I was wondering if "visualizing" these techniques in my kata would help? When you guys spar with a Judo or Jujitsu guy are you at an advantage for knowing both disciplines? When you spar with Uechi-ryu trained guys who are deficient in the Jujitsu skills, do you notice you have a huge advantage?
Lone wolf,
The context of your questions is fine. They are good things to be discussed. However, you seem to be purposfully throwing insults around. Thats not an effective way to get legitimate responses to your questions. People just get pissed, and some will choose to not respond to you even though they have lots to share. Keep in mind, even if you go by a "handle" - you have a "cyber personality". Your cyber personality is what you make of it, just like your real one. If you make comments like you have above in real life, you would make many enemies. If thats what you want, then so be it. This is honest advice to you sir, take it or leave it. I hope you come around! You sound like you could have something to teach us.
Mike and Joe Sensei's,
Where do you see throwing and grappling in the Uechi forms? Can you train this by doing kata (a one man form.) I notice Judo calls some of thier exercises "kata" but they are two-person sets, like our bunkai or kumite. I need to get some sparring experience with some judoka or jujitsuka(?) obviously, but I was wondering if "visualizing" these techniques in my kata would help? When you guys spar with a Judo or Jujitsu guy are you at an advantage for knowing both disciplines? When you spar with Uechi-ryu trained guys who are deficient in the Jujitsu skills, do you notice you have a huge advantage?
Lone wolf,
The context of your questions is fine. They are good things to be discussed. However, you seem to be purposfully throwing insults around. Thats not an effective way to get legitimate responses to your questions. People just get pissed, and some will choose to not respond to you even though they have lots to share. Keep in mind, even if you go by a "handle" - you have a "cyber personality". Your cyber personality is what you make of it, just like your real one. If you make comments like you have above in real life, you would make many enemies. If thats what you want, then so be it. This is honest advice to you sir, take it or leave it. I hope you come around! You sound like you could have something to teach us.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
To All
I took the liberty of editing out some colorful language and gratuitous insults above. While I find it amusing, it serves no purpose.
At this point I am not convinced that I will learn much useful from our "Lone" stranger when:
1) He chooses to insult others from behind a curtain of anonymity (so-to-write). That speaks volumes.
2) He assumes way too much. But then...such dialogue does indeed tell me a lot, even if not in the manner intended.
As you will see when you inspect the posts above, I will try to be fair in my editing. I encourage the discussion of controversial subjects. Others and I enjoy being challenged by new ways of thinking (even though I haven't seen anything new yet). Just stick to the topic and let’s leave the personal side out of it, no matter how amusing. Otherwise, I'll gladly flush the offending party(s) down the cyber toilet in a few simple keystrokes.
Participation and speech on this forum is a privilege, not a right. All are guests, and I expect proper decorum.
Thank you for your time. Let the discussion continue.
- Bill
I took the liberty of editing out some colorful language and gratuitous insults above. While I find it amusing, it serves no purpose.
At this point I am not convinced that I will learn much useful from our "Lone" stranger when:
1) He chooses to insult others from behind a curtain of anonymity (so-to-write). That speaks volumes.
2) He assumes way too much. But then...such dialogue does indeed tell me a lot, even if not in the manner intended.
As you will see when you inspect the posts above, I will try to be fair in my editing. I encourage the discussion of controversial subjects. Others and I enjoy being challenged by new ways of thinking (even though I haven't seen anything new yet). Just stick to the topic and let’s leave the personal side out of it, no matter how amusing. Otherwise, I'll gladly flush the offending party(s) down the cyber toilet in a few simple keystrokes.
Participation and speech on this forum is a privilege, not a right. All are guests, and I expect proper decorum.
Thank you for your time. Let the discussion continue.
- Bill
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
It's amazing Lone Wolf how you can easily laugh off getting your ear ripped off. You must have a very high thresh hold for pain. Maybe you should change your handle to Superman.
I don't think I've brought this story up before but it seems like an appropriate time. I have never been in many fights in fact I can count them on one hand. But the one I remember most is a time in high school when I had words with a fellow student as stupid teenagers do. This particular student was on the wrestling team I don't know how good he was, all I know is that he was a jack ass. Any way we are having words and the next thing I know I'm on the ground being wrap up like a pretzel. At the time I wasn't studying Karate or any other Martial art so I resorted to the only thing I could do. I bit him. Hard, in the leg through the jeans, he let go. He pushed me away and we both got up and I will never forget the look on this kids face. He was in shock, he couldn't believe that I actually bit him. The teachers jumped in before it went any further, but from that day on that kid never bothered me again.
So don't sit there and tell me that just because a Karateka doesn't understand groundwork like Judo or Jujitsu he or she is helpless. What makes a fighter so formidable is not the art but the mind set. To be able to see the attack the split second it happens and to counter it. To exploit the holes that appear when an attack occurs. And when it really comes down to it, to do whatever it takes to win.
I don't think I've brought this story up before but it seems like an appropriate time. I have never been in many fights in fact I can count them on one hand. But the one I remember most is a time in high school when I had words with a fellow student as stupid teenagers do. This particular student was on the wrestling team I don't know how good he was, all I know is that he was a jack ass. Any way we are having words and the next thing I know I'm on the ground being wrap up like a pretzel. At the time I wasn't studying Karate or any other Martial art so I resorted to the only thing I could do. I bit him. Hard, in the leg through the jeans, he let go. He pushed me away and we both got up and I will never forget the look on this kids face. He was in shock, he couldn't believe that I actually bit him. The teachers jumped in before it went any further, but from that day on that kid never bothered me again.
So don't sit there and tell me that just because a Karateka doesn't understand groundwork like Judo or Jujitsu he or she is helpless. What makes a fighter so formidable is not the art but the mind set. To be able to see the attack the split second it happens and to counter it. To exploit the holes that appear when an attack occurs. And when it really comes down to it, to do whatever it takes to win.
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Friends,
What the Doc said!
<Boy he sure does speak pretty.>
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Victor Smith
What the Doc said!
<Boy he sure does speak pretty.>
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Victor Smith
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mikemurphy
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
- Contact:
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Lone Wolf,
It's a shame that you can't bring a sense of budo into your discussion. It seems like you have much to say that would benefit all, but unfortunately, how you choose to say it is garbage.
But to answer a question that you pose about karate. Again, you never mention what art (if any) you study, but you tend to use the term karate in a most general sense. You ask why there are so many hidden moves in karate. Well, I would answer (and many would argue this with me) that not all karate styles have hidden movements in them. I'm a firm believer that sometimes an apple is just an apple. If people want to find hidden movements then they will no matter if they are there or not. Just like you can in any traditional kobudo or jujitsu art. I can't say the same thing for the non-traditional arts like Brazilian grappling or anything like that because I don't know that much about them.
On the other hand, you mention why would people train from someone who was hiding movements. I don't pretend to be an expert on Oriental society, but they are a different culture with different ways of doing things. Patience is a true virtue among them (something we could learn much from). Hiding the technique is simply a way of waiting until the student is ready to handle it...my best guess anyway!
yours in budo,
mike
It's a shame that you can't bring a sense of budo into your discussion. It seems like you have much to say that would benefit all, but unfortunately, how you choose to say it is garbage.
But to answer a question that you pose about karate. Again, you never mention what art (if any) you study, but you tend to use the term karate in a most general sense. You ask why there are so many hidden moves in karate. Well, I would answer (and many would argue this with me) that not all karate styles have hidden movements in them. I'm a firm believer that sometimes an apple is just an apple. If people want to find hidden movements then they will no matter if they are there or not. Just like you can in any traditional kobudo or jujitsu art. I can't say the same thing for the non-traditional arts like Brazilian grappling or anything like that because I don't know that much about them.
On the other hand, you mention why would people train from someone who was hiding movements. I don't pretend to be an expert on Oriental society, but they are a different culture with different ways of doing things. Patience is a true virtue among them (something we could learn much from). Hiding the technique is simply a way of waiting until the student is ready to handle it...my best guess anyway!
yours in budo,
mike
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Ok Lone Wolf, back to the question at hand:
"Why is it that Traditional Karate doesn't even address ground fighting? Do you believe that you are SO good that you will never end up on the ground?" -Lone Wolf
I will agree that most "Traditional" Karate in general focuses on strikes and not on joint manipulation and groundwork. Again, in general. So what? Dose that mean traditional arts should be abandoned? Lets look at other arts like boxing. A very Traditional Martial art in it's own way. No groundwork, throws, or joint manipulation what so ever. But yet people flock to it. How about Muy Thai? Another very popular Martial art but has very little focus on any ground applications. Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, I could go on listing other striking styles that have very little focus on ground work but yet are still very popular. Why is that? Does everybody in the Striking Martial art world feel they are so superb at fighting that groundwork is of no use to them? Or is it something else that drives them? Perhaps, just perhaps that one of the reasons people study a particular art and not another is that they enjoy it? Could it be that people study a traditional Martial art or any martial art for that matter because they find an incredible amount of joy doing it and not so much trying to become GI Super Soldier? Lone Wolf, nobody is arguing that ground techniques are not effective or important in a no holds bar fight. But how many average Martial artist are ever going to find them selves in that scenario? Maybe 10%, if that. Now I can only speak for myself when discussing Uechi-ryu. And all I can say is that I love studying this art. I can honestly say I will be studying Uechi until I am dead and buried. Can you say the same about whatever art you may study? If so great, keep it up! If not, maybe it would be time better spent re-evaluating why you study, and not criticizing Traditional Martial Artists.
"Why is it that Traditional Karate doesn't even address ground fighting? Do you believe that you are SO good that you will never end up on the ground?" -Lone Wolf
I will agree that most "Traditional" Karate in general focuses on strikes and not on joint manipulation and groundwork. Again, in general. So what? Dose that mean traditional arts should be abandoned? Lets look at other arts like boxing. A very Traditional Martial art in it's own way. No groundwork, throws, or joint manipulation what so ever. But yet people flock to it. How about Muy Thai? Another very popular Martial art but has very little focus on any ground applications. Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, I could go on listing other striking styles that have very little focus on ground work but yet are still very popular. Why is that? Does everybody in the Striking Martial art world feel they are so superb at fighting that groundwork is of no use to them? Or is it something else that drives them? Perhaps, just perhaps that one of the reasons people study a particular art and not another is that they enjoy it? Could it be that people study a traditional Martial art or any martial art for that matter because they find an incredible amount of joy doing it and not so much trying to become GI Super Soldier? Lone Wolf, nobody is arguing that ground techniques are not effective or important in a no holds bar fight. But how many average Martial artist are ever going to find them selves in that scenario? Maybe 10%, if that. Now I can only speak for myself when discussing Uechi-ryu. And all I can say is that I love studying this art. I can honestly say I will be studying Uechi until I am dead and buried. Can you say the same about whatever art you may study? If so great, keep it up! If not, maybe it would be time better spent re-evaluating why you study, and not criticizing Traditional Martial Artists.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Mr. Lone Wolf
While my post appears to offend you, I have noted a change in decorum and appreciate it. Others have expressed their opinions. As a moderator, I will communicate what is relevant to your concerns.
You stated <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unbelieveable,
Mr. Glasheen, I can't believe what you posted.
1. This is a public access forum. Just because I have a different opinion and a unique way of expressing it then you are going to censore me? This is NOT Fuedal Japan. This is AMERICA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My residence status has not escaped me. However let me address what you implied. You have implied that because you can sign up and start typing, that you may say what you wish and we must listen.
I will remind you, sir, of the protocol used by the Letters to the Editor section of any major newspaper. Letters are not accepted unless the author signs his/her work, and leaves an address and telephone number. The editor is free to edit the content of the letters for brevity, clarity, and offensive content. The editor can choose which letters to publish, and wish not to publish. Most such forums state up front that they will not print letters that are patently offensive. In your case, sir, you insulted on more than one occasion in a manner that had nothing to do with the subject matter that you find so important. Rather than add to your point, it detracted. Indeed my editing of your posts aided you in focusing on the subject and presenting your argument.
Also, every such forum with public access (note I didn't say public forum) has a style and a focus. In the WWF, the trash talk is entertainment, and entertainment is the raison d’être of that medium. Here gratuitous insults are anathema to our intent - seeking the truth.
"America" does not entitle you to go where you wish and say whatever you want. It entitles you to express most (not all) ideas in some forum. If this forum cramps your style, you are indeed free to start your own web page.
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And from what I have seen of the progression of UFC contests, it appears that the winners today are those that know a little something about many skills (striking, grappling, kicking, throwing). Yes, they may specialize in one, but it is important not to have one's head in the sand. And indeed this is why I have not yet applied the grand delete to your posts. Amid the inappropriate delivery are morsels of truth. If you read the thread, you will see that you have generated interest.
Others have expressed opinions that I have on the issue of one style of fighting vs. another (given a specific situation), so I will not go farther than this right now. This post was mainly meant to inform you of the policies of the forum and the reasons for my actions.
- Bill
While my post appears to offend you, I have noted a change in decorum and appreciate it. Others have expressed their opinions. As a moderator, I will communicate what is relevant to your concerns.
You stated <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unbelieveable,
Mr. Glasheen, I can't believe what you posted.
1. This is a public access forum. Just because I have a different opinion and a unique way of expressing it then you are going to censore me? This is NOT Fuedal Japan. This is AMERICA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My residence status has not escaped me. However let me address what you implied. You have implied that because you can sign up and start typing, that you may say what you wish and we must listen.
I will remind you, sir, of the protocol used by the Letters to the Editor section of any major newspaper. Letters are not accepted unless the author signs his/her work, and leaves an address and telephone number. The editor is free to edit the content of the letters for brevity, clarity, and offensive content. The editor can choose which letters to publish, and wish not to publish. Most such forums state up front that they will not print letters that are patently offensive. In your case, sir, you insulted on more than one occasion in a manner that had nothing to do with the subject matter that you find so important. Rather than add to your point, it detracted. Indeed my editing of your posts aided you in focusing on the subject and presenting your argument.
Also, every such forum with public access (note I didn't say public forum) has a style and a focus. In the WWF, the trash talk is entertainment, and entertainment is the raison d’être of that medium. Here gratuitous insults are anathema to our intent - seeking the truth.
"America" does not entitle you to go where you wish and say whatever you want. It entitles you to express most (not all) ideas in some forum. If this forum cramps your style, you are indeed free to start your own web page.
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I agree. But I might offer a piece of advice from Mr. Covey: seek first to understand, then to be understood. If you ask, you will find many in this very discussion who have instructor status in judo, jiu-jitsu, and aikido. You will also find many former competitive wrestlers and boxers. You will find participants who have 300+ pound judoka as students. Indeed the very strength of the system we work with is that it is so general. It makes it easy to study other arts and weave the pieces together so one has a seamless set of fighting skills.My post is the hottest topic right now. Why do you suppose that is?
And from what I have seen of the progression of UFC contests, it appears that the winners today are those that know a little something about many skills (striking, grappling, kicking, throwing). Yes, they may specialize in one, but it is important not to have one's head in the sand. And indeed this is why I have not yet applied the grand delete to your posts. Amid the inappropriate delivery are morsels of truth. If you read the thread, you will see that you have generated interest.
Others have expressed opinions that I have on the issue of one style of fighting vs. another (given a specific situation), so I will not go farther than this right now. This post was mainly meant to inform you of the policies of the forum and the reasons for my actions.
- Bill
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
What is really frustrating to me is some of the more knowledgable people above have been distracted by the B/S, and have ignored the issue. Too bad, I was hoping to learn something from Mike Murphy, Bill Glasheen and others. ( Even J.D. claims to know a few Uechi-compatible wrasslin moves, but has yet to SHARE! Only alude that he has been shown them by his seniors.)
I must admit, I contributed to this sidetrack and should not have "descended to insult". C'mon guys, lets get back on the subject so I can learn something, please?!!
I must admit, I contributed to this sidetrack and should not have "descended to insult". C'mon guys, lets get back on the subject so I can learn something, please?!!
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Interesting discussion. Especially looking at it from a "Verbal Self Defense" perspective (another thread).
One thing that comes to my mind as a karateka, however, is the emphasis it places on self-defense. In most self-defense situations you will most likely come up against an attacker who is armed or multiple attackers. In either case, grappling is not something that would most likely ensue. If you are able to disarm an individual with a gun or knife, he will probably not want to grapple you to the ground, he was probably out for money and if he can't get it easily, will probably split. In the case of multiple opponents, grappling would be a bad thing for obvious reasons. I've seen the UFC a couple times, but also don't equate that to self-defense tactics, per se. My personal reason for training is not to be able to beat someone else up, but to defend myself in the most efficient and quickest way possible. Just some food for thought.
One thing that comes to my mind as a karateka, however, is the emphasis it places on self-defense. In most self-defense situations you will most likely come up against an attacker who is armed or multiple attackers. In either case, grappling is not something that would most likely ensue. If you are able to disarm an individual with a gun or knife, he will probably not want to grapple you to the ground, he was probably out for money and if he can't get it easily, will probably split. In the case of multiple opponents, grappling would be a bad thing for obvious reasons. I've seen the UFC a couple times, but also don't equate that to self-defense tactics, per se. My personal reason for training is not to be able to beat someone else up, but to defend myself in the most efficient and quickest way possible. Just some food for thought.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Wu Wei
Excellent points. The medium and the opponent(s) dictate which methods work the best. In a strictly one-on-one caged environment with no props and no time limits, grappling and groundwork work really well. However when I did 3-on-one randori in my aikido classes, going to the ground resulted in instant disadvantage. Groundwork takes time and can only be managed one partner at a time - for an extended period of time. This gives an opportunity for the others to wreak havoc on the solo defender. It is in the attacker's interest to bring this solo defender to the ground, and absolute death for the defender. In this multiple opponent environment, mobility is an absolute necessity. Thus knowledge of what the grappler does is important for this format only in that one wants to know how to avoid the clutches of the grappler.
I have another format I occasionally use in my sparring session. I call it the barroom brawl. Basically it's every person for him/herself, and I encourage people to NOT fight fair. As soon as one person goes to the ground, the others pounce like a pack of wolves - as they should.
Of course throwing is another story altogether. In a 3-on-1 encounter, throwing your opponent onto hard surfaces and into others works quite well. Striking and throwing in combination works best. You just want to make sure you're the tori and not the uke. You also want to make sure you execute the throw immediately after the clinch – or break it off. As soon as that second person gets his/her hand on you, you’ve got trouble. Along the same lines, good ukemi teaches you that there is life after being thrown. One just needs to understand how to fall and how to quickly transition back to a mobile status. A respectable Uechika knows how to take a hit. A respectable judoka or aikidoka knows how to take a fall and move on.
So in the end, it depends.
- Bill
Excellent points. The medium and the opponent(s) dictate which methods work the best. In a strictly one-on-one caged environment with no props and no time limits, grappling and groundwork work really well. However when I did 3-on-one randori in my aikido classes, going to the ground resulted in instant disadvantage. Groundwork takes time and can only be managed one partner at a time - for an extended period of time. This gives an opportunity for the others to wreak havoc on the solo defender. It is in the attacker's interest to bring this solo defender to the ground, and absolute death for the defender. In this multiple opponent environment, mobility is an absolute necessity. Thus knowledge of what the grappler does is important for this format only in that one wants to know how to avoid the clutches of the grappler.
I have another format I occasionally use in my sparring session. I call it the barroom brawl. Basically it's every person for him/herself, and I encourage people to NOT fight fair. As soon as one person goes to the ground, the others pounce like a pack of wolves - as they should.
Of course throwing is another story altogether. In a 3-on-1 encounter, throwing your opponent onto hard surfaces and into others works quite well. Striking and throwing in combination works best. You just want to make sure you're the tori and not the uke. You also want to make sure you execute the throw immediately after the clinch – or break it off. As soon as that second person gets his/her hand on you, you’ve got trouble. Along the same lines, good ukemi teaches you that there is life after being thrown. One just needs to understand how to fall and how to quickly transition back to a mobile status. A respectable Uechika knows how to take a hit. A respectable judoka or aikidoka knows how to take a fall and move on.
So in the end, it depends.
- Bill
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
Heheheh.
My point is that almost ALL striking Arts or Karate systems totally ignore groundfighting. And I'm not talking stand up joint locks here. Even though standing submissions don't work. ( Ah, but that is another post).
Most of the Karate systems that I have been exposed to ( Isshin ryu, Shuri ryu, Shotokan, Goju ryu ) all believe that they have such a " strong Stance " that they could NEVER be taken down. They say that they have such KIME that they can time the punch or knee to stop a " Shooter". They don't take into consideration forward momentum.
Why do you not see deep sprawling or retracting movements in Kata? Did the ancients never have to deal with someone diving at their legs?
I can accept that Kata is exercise that teaches someone how to move and concentrate. But if I ever hear that Kata teaches you how to fight, then I have to call Bull****!
My point is that almost ALL striking Arts or Karate systems totally ignore groundfighting. And I'm not talking stand up joint locks here. Even though standing submissions don't work. ( Ah, but that is another post).
Most of the Karate systems that I have been exposed to ( Isshin ryu, Shuri ryu, Shotokan, Goju ryu ) all believe that they have such a " strong Stance " that they could NEVER be taken down. They say that they have such KIME that they can time the punch or knee to stop a " Shooter". They don't take into consideration forward momentum.
Why do you not see deep sprawling or retracting movements in Kata? Did the ancients never have to deal with someone diving at their legs?
I can accept that Kata is exercise that teaches someone how to move and concentrate. But if I ever hear that Kata teaches you how to fight, then I have to call Bull****!
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
our Lone Wolf writes:
Most of the Karate systems that I have been exposed to ( Isshin ryu, Shuri ryu, Shotokan, Goju ryu ) all believe that they have such a " strong Stance " that they could NEVER be taken down. They say that they have such KIME that they can time the punch or knee to stop a " Shooter". They don't take into consideration forward momentum."
Having some experience in those systems, I've never known my seniors to make such claims. Whether Isshin, Goju or Shotokan they all have taught mobility against attackers.
Where I can state who they are and what they've taught, your Pseudonym makes it difficult to understand where your knowledge originates nor the context in which it may have been given.
Simply making statements and chortling with glee do not make for discussion.
I can think of any number of traditional training techniques which are appropriate for your shoot attack. Will they succeed or not? Of course the answer depends on training, will and intent as always.
As I mentioned earlier, the context in which Okinawan karate developed, there was also a strong Okinawan grappling tradition. I believe it is quite reasonable to assume if they were concerned about dealing with those attacks, they would have worked in those traditions.
While under some artificial circumstances the attacker may attempt the 'shoot' how realistic is that an 'attack' in the wider world?
Say I leave the Bank and turn down the alley, is the attack I'm most certain to face a 'shoot' to my legs?
Of course that is a reasonable and vast topic for discussion, for reasonable and vast martial artists.
I suggest whenever you decide to share your name and your actual training, there might be a case for continuing discussion.
But as things stand, is all we have left for rational discourse to discuss the merits of Bruce Lee's assertions?
As I personally am of weak mind and body, I would chose to step aside your shoot at this time and let you continue to deal with the sprawling in the dust as I stride away.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Most of the Karate systems that I have been exposed to ( Isshin ryu, Shuri ryu, Shotokan, Goju ryu ) all believe that they have such a " strong Stance " that they could NEVER be taken down. They say that they have such KIME that they can time the punch or knee to stop a " Shooter". They don't take into consideration forward momentum."
Having some experience in those systems, I've never known my seniors to make such claims. Whether Isshin, Goju or Shotokan they all have taught mobility against attackers.
Where I can state who they are and what they've taught, your Pseudonym makes it difficult to understand where your knowledge originates nor the context in which it may have been given.
Simply making statements and chortling with glee do not make for discussion.
I can think of any number of traditional training techniques which are appropriate for your shoot attack. Will they succeed or not? Of course the answer depends on training, will and intent as always.
As I mentioned earlier, the context in which Okinawan karate developed, there was also a strong Okinawan grappling tradition. I believe it is quite reasonable to assume if they were concerned about dealing with those attacks, they would have worked in those traditions.
While under some artificial circumstances the attacker may attempt the 'shoot' how realistic is that an 'attack' in the wider world?
Say I leave the Bank and turn down the alley, is the attack I'm most certain to face a 'shoot' to my legs?
Of course that is a reasonable and vast topic for discussion, for reasonable and vast martial artists.
I suggest whenever you decide to share your name and your actual training, there might be a case for continuing discussion.
But as things stand, is all we have left for rational discourse to discuss the merits of Bruce Lee's assertions?
As I personally am of weak mind and body, I would chose to step aside your shoot at this time and let you continue to deal with the sprawling in the dust as I stride away.
Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Don't want to get your Gi dirty?
J.D.
I have to admit that I like having this guy around. It's like me working with Tony R. He helps make points I've been trying to make for a long time - particularly those that think in the immobile mindset. Is anybody listening out there?
Indeed, the very threats that Lone Wolf poses shows the merits of:
* the tenshin movements,
* the eight-direction movement exercises,
* the seisan jump,
* the gap-closing movements that jam an opponent's intent,
* the merit of redirecting an attack (or repositioning oneself) for the knee thrust bunkai in seisan (bull and the toreador),
* NOT attacking with a weight shift towards that front leg like most people do (unless you are transitioning to another stance).
* the jiu-jitsu joint lock and ground-fighting applications of sanseiryu (come to camp, folks).
Lone Wolf
I agree with you about the standing locks. They appear to have merit only when litigation-fearing police want to restrain unskilled belligerents, or when setting up Hollywood flying attacks off the ropes in the WWF. But as you said, that's a whole other discussion.
- Bill
I have to admit that I like having this guy around. It's like me working with Tony R. He helps make points I've been trying to make for a long time - particularly those that think in the immobile mindset. Is anybody listening out there?
Indeed, the very threats that Lone Wolf poses shows the merits of:
* the tenshin movements,
* the eight-direction movement exercises,
* the seisan jump,
* the gap-closing movements that jam an opponent's intent,
* the merit of redirecting an attack (or repositioning oneself) for the knee thrust bunkai in seisan (bull and the toreador),
* NOT attacking with a weight shift towards that front leg like most people do (unless you are transitioning to another stance).
* the jiu-jitsu joint lock and ground-fighting applications of sanseiryu (come to camp, folks).
Lone Wolf
I agree with you about the standing locks. They appear to have merit only when litigation-fearing police want to restrain unskilled belligerents, or when setting up Hollywood flying attacks off the ropes in the WWF. But as you said, that's a whole other discussion.
- Bill
