Billy,
Another thought on the movement of the arms during the Sesian jump.
Many southern kung fu styles teach a type of kicking called a "shadowless kick". This is a method wherein the kick is combined with a punch, to distract the defender and make it harder for him to stop the incoming attack.
Perhaps the hand movments in the jump were an emergency counter to this sort of attack?
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Moderator: Available
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Sensei-Bill,
Are you going to teach some "green gi" techniques from Sanseirui Kata at the summer camp?
I have seen some truly outstanding posts on this thread. (not wishing to swell anybody's head I will leave names out) Thanks Lone Wolf! Your obnoxious attitude seems to have somehow brought out the best in us inferiors!
Are you going to teach some "green gi" techniques from Sanseirui Kata at the summer camp?
I have seen some truly outstanding posts on this thread. (not wishing to swell anybody's head I will leave names out) Thanks Lone Wolf! Your obnoxious attitude seems to have somehow brought out the best in us inferiors!
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Paul C,
Great idea! I'm coming to camp.
Great idea! I'm coming to camp.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Hehehe,
You smart guys are killin' me.
yup us dumbasses in south Carolina sure R dumn, uh i mean dum, or is it dumb?
Now I attended a symposium on Shuri Ryu once and a very famous Karate "master" stood up and as he demonstrated the correct way to punch, began naming all muscles that contracted while throwing a correct punch. I believe it was 26 muscles.
Anyway, my Danzan ryu Jujitsu Shihan was extremely impressed by this. He noted that anyone who took the time to research a subject so thoroughly must be a very serious student and quite knowledgeble.
I saw things differently. I saw it as an example of a smart person making a simple thing complicated.
Now I have always heard that you should "keep it simple stupid".
I have always remarked that,Yes, stupid people should try to keep it simple.
However, fighting is primordial, savage and extremely violent. To sit around and intellectually analyze and philosophize about it does it an injustice.
As well educated or wise, enlightened, or knowledgable as you are, you can't predice the way that you will react in a life or death situation. You may think that you are powerful physically because you are powerful mentally. However many a smart persons have lost their lives to the "ignorant" street thug.
My only point is that just because you are dangerous with words, do not be fooled into believing that you are dangerous when the time for talk is done, my good Doctor.
Mr. Glasheen,
Thank you for still allowing me to post here. I expected that I would have been banned by now. I was censored and edited at the other Forums. You have continued to allow me to speak my mind even though I have been " showing my ass". You have my respect, for what it's worth to you. It does not take a great intellectual to bear the fool. It takes a Humble Man. Thank you Mr. Glasheen.
You smart guys are killin' me.
yup us dumbasses in south Carolina sure R dumn, uh i mean dum, or is it dumb?
Now I attended a symposium on Shuri Ryu once and a very famous Karate "master" stood up and as he demonstrated the correct way to punch, began naming all muscles that contracted while throwing a correct punch. I believe it was 26 muscles.
Anyway, my Danzan ryu Jujitsu Shihan was extremely impressed by this. He noted that anyone who took the time to research a subject so thoroughly must be a very serious student and quite knowledgeble.
I saw things differently. I saw it as an example of a smart person making a simple thing complicated.
Now I have always heard that you should "keep it simple stupid".
I have always remarked that,Yes, stupid people should try to keep it simple.
However, fighting is primordial, savage and extremely violent. To sit around and intellectually analyze and philosophize about it does it an injustice.
As well educated or wise, enlightened, or knowledgable as you are, you can't predice the way that you will react in a life or death situation. You may think that you are powerful physically because you are powerful mentally. However many a smart persons have lost their lives to the "ignorant" street thug.
My only point is that just because you are dangerous with words, do not be fooled into believing that you are dangerous when the time for talk is done, my good Doctor.
Mr. Glasheen,
Thank you for still allowing me to post here. I expected that I would have been banned by now. I was censored and edited at the other Forums. You have continued to allow me to speak my mind even though I have been " showing my ass". You have my respect, for what it's worth to you. It does not take a great intellectual to bear the fool. It takes a Humble Man. Thank you Mr. Glasheen.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lone Wolf:
Hehehe,
You smart guys are killin' me.
-Alas, no such luck.
yup us dumbasses in south Carolina sure R dumn, uh i mean dum, or is it dumb?
-Ipse dixit.
SNIP
Now I have always heard that you should "keep it simple stupid".
I have always remarked that,Yes, stupid people should try to keep it simple.
-Nah; too easy....
However, fighting is primordial, savage and extremely violent. To sit around and intellectually analyze and philosophize about it does it an injustice.
-Anybody care to point out to me where anyone has suggested this course of action at all, let alone this course of action without any physical practice?
-Yeah, that's what I thought: StrawMan-Jutsu.
As well educated or wise, enlightened, or knowledgable as you are, you can't predice the way that you will react in a life or death situation. You may think that you are powerful physically because you are powerful mentally.
-Has this suggestion been made by any other than Rex The Wonder Puppy?
Thought not.
However many a smart persons have lost their lives to the "ignorant" street thug.
My only point is that just because you are dangerous with words, do not be fooled into believing that you are dangerous when the time for talk is done, my good Doctor.
-Anybody besides Rin Tin Tin equating verbal skllls with physical ones?
Thought not.
Mr. Glasheen,
Thank you for still allowing me to post here. I expected that I would have been banned by now. I was censored and edited at the other Forums. You have continued to allow me to speak my mind even though I have been " showing my ass". You have my respect, for what it's worth to you. It does not take a great intellectual to bear the fool. It takes a Humble Man. Thank you Mr. Glasheen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-Glasheen-Sensei is to be commended for his patience. Bravo. Osu!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited April 14, 2000).]
Hehehe,
You smart guys are killin' me.
-Alas, no such luck.
yup us dumbasses in south Carolina sure R dumn, uh i mean dum, or is it dumb?
-Ipse dixit.
SNIP
Now I have always heard that you should "keep it simple stupid".
I have always remarked that,Yes, stupid people should try to keep it simple.
-Nah; too easy....
However, fighting is primordial, savage and extremely violent. To sit around and intellectually analyze and philosophize about it does it an injustice.
-Anybody care to point out to me where anyone has suggested this course of action at all, let alone this course of action without any physical practice?
-Yeah, that's what I thought: StrawMan-Jutsu.
As well educated or wise, enlightened, or knowledgable as you are, you can't predice the way that you will react in a life or death situation. You may think that you are powerful physically because you are powerful mentally.
-Has this suggestion been made by any other than Rex The Wonder Puppy?
Thought not.
However many a smart persons have lost their lives to the "ignorant" street thug.
My only point is that just because you are dangerous with words, do not be fooled into believing that you are dangerous when the time for talk is done, my good Doctor.
-Anybody besides Rin Tin Tin equating verbal skllls with physical ones?
Thought not.
Mr. Glasheen,
Thank you for still allowing me to post here. I expected that I would have been banned by now. I was censored and edited at the other Forums. You have continued to allow me to speak my mind even though I have been " showing my ass". You have my respect, for what it's worth to you. It does not take a great intellectual to bear the fool. It takes a Humble Man. Thank you Mr. Glasheen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-Glasheen-Sensei is to be commended for his patience. Bravo. Osu!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited April 14, 2000).]
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
I was under the impression that kata was the only way that a karateka could perform these movements at "full contact" speed. To do these movements in bunkai at that level would be dangerous. Why would it be dangerous? Control of the techniques comes to mind. We have to "pull" our punches and kicks because of the areas of the body that we are attacking. Kata performed at full contact speed is still just striking into the air. This said, when we perform the movements of the kata in a REAL FIGHT, it is the KATA training that will kick in and take over the control of the movements. Bunkai is very important in that it shows how vulnerable you are when the movements are NOT used as intended (read FULL CONTACT).
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Billy B
In reference to the Uechi seisan jump, you asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The movement in seisan has many variants and many applications. You will see this movement in Uechi seisan, in Fuzhou crane, in tonfa forms, and in sai forms. It takes on slightly different variations depending upon the array of likely applications. A smart fighter learns these repeating patterns and soon discovers that a little practice can go a long way. For instance, the similar posture in Tsukenshi-tahaku no sai has one in nearly identical upper body posture, but instead has the raised leg tucked behind the standing leg. Why? Because the sai was designed to fight against the sword, and the defender is trying to keep the leg from being cut off. This particular Okinawan application is probably why the Okinawans came up with the application they did for this originally Fuzhou form. But in boxer-rebellion-era Fuzhou, the likely leg application was against an unarmed assailant trying to take out the legs of his opponent. The fact that leg attacks were so common in the Fuzhou area is the reason why we don't have all the characteristics in our karate (deep stances, fixed positioning, etc.) that our visitor repeatedly suggests.
As for what the upper body is doing, well...one is again guided to the various forms that do various versions of this move. In the weapon forms, the weapons guard the forearms and they are pointed out. In the Fuzhou crane form, one instead ducks down - as if dropping under a high kick and having the hands there just in case. The point is that practice of the general movement ingrains a number of good habits that can be applied for a number of different attacks - both low and high. Sometimes you don't know exactly what the person is doing until it is done, and there are fakes. So...one has one's bases covered just in case. The beauty of kata is that the experienced floor/mat practitioner can take the patterns of movement learned against real opponents and practice/perfect them in generalized moves. This enables the practitioner to execute them more efficiently and effectively - and without thinking - at a future confrontation. And if you can have one general movement connect to many applications... You get the point. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure if this applies or not, but I believe there are a couple of tales of Kanbun Uechi leaping onto an attacker's back to subdue him(in Uechi-ryu karatedo by GEM).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If the oral history is true - and it fits given the Boxer Rebellion fighting context - then Kanbun was "sprawling" when the rest of us were a twinkle in our great granddaddy’s eyes. There's very little new in fighting - only new people/styles/organizations claiming ownership of old techniques. Any survivor quickly learns what works. The rest of us just need to figure out what has been passed down to us.
Lone Wolf wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
In reference to the Uechi seisan jump, you asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Good kata train the body to internalize efficient movement. Time on the floor/mat teach us how to apply that movement. Whether it is fighting or football, the very best spend time drilling the basics, training the body, and applying the knowledge. One cannot rise to maximum potential without the whole package.So why are we moving our hands/arms like that? If its a defense against an iron broom or a shoot, there would be no need.
The movement in seisan has many variants and many applications. You will see this movement in Uechi seisan, in Fuzhou crane, in tonfa forms, and in sai forms. It takes on slightly different variations depending upon the array of likely applications. A smart fighter learns these repeating patterns and soon discovers that a little practice can go a long way. For instance, the similar posture in Tsukenshi-tahaku no sai has one in nearly identical upper body posture, but instead has the raised leg tucked behind the standing leg. Why? Because the sai was designed to fight against the sword, and the defender is trying to keep the leg from being cut off. This particular Okinawan application is probably why the Okinawans came up with the application they did for this originally Fuzhou form. But in boxer-rebellion-era Fuzhou, the likely leg application was against an unarmed assailant trying to take out the legs of his opponent. The fact that leg attacks were so common in the Fuzhou area is the reason why we don't have all the characteristics in our karate (deep stances, fixed positioning, etc.) that our visitor repeatedly suggests.
As for what the upper body is doing, well...one is again guided to the various forms that do various versions of this move. In the weapon forms, the weapons guard the forearms and they are pointed out. In the Fuzhou crane form, one instead ducks down - as if dropping under a high kick and having the hands there just in case. The point is that practice of the general movement ingrains a number of good habits that can be applied for a number of different attacks - both low and high. Sometimes you don't know exactly what the person is doing until it is done, and there are fakes. So...one has one's bases covered just in case. The beauty of kata is that the experienced floor/mat practitioner can take the patterns of movement learned against real opponents and practice/perfect them in generalized moves. This enables the practitioner to execute them more efficiently and effectively - and without thinking - at a future confrontation. And if you can have one general movement connect to many applications... You get the point. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm not sure if this applies or not, but I believe there are a couple of tales of Kanbun Uechi leaping onto an attacker's back to subdue him(in Uechi-ryu karatedo by GEM).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If the oral history is true - and it fits given the Boxer Rebellion fighting context - then Kanbun was "sprawling" when the rest of us were a twinkle in our great granddaddy’s eyes. There's very little new in fighting - only new people/styles/organizations claiming ownership of old techniques. Any survivor quickly learns what works. The rest of us just need to figure out what has been passed down to us.
Lone Wolf wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As a matter of information, our style and stylists rarely move back. Even in the technique I discussed above, the goal is to move the legs and not to move the center. That, sir, is even faster than the movement of an opponent forward. Any center movement of practitioners in this style are generally forward or to the side (straight or angled). Often you argue our very point of view.Can you move backward faster than you can move forward?
- Bill
-
Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Sensei Glasheen,
You have GOT to teach your bunkai at camp this year!!
Gene
You have GOT to teach your bunkai at camp this year!!
Gene
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
As long as I can annoy you my good Doctor I'll stay. You can cut and paste my posts, critique them to pieces if you like.
You are so knowledgable and your "cup" is so full that I'm afraid that there is nothing that you can learn from me.
So perhaps my posts can help the other, less enlightened people on this Forum.
I find it interesting that the only person who can understand my " approach " is the Moderator.
This is not a perfect world and I am suprised at the way that you Ethical and morally upright people treat me.
If I am abrasive then it's fine. I am the village idiot. But You are all suppose to be on the "Path" and you sink to the same level as me. I believe that's called being a Hypocrite. I have to say that I am suprised at the self-rightous retorts of all of you upright highly educated practitioners of the Fighting Arts.
None the less I will continue to post here. I am reluctant to post my rank and experience here since it was one of the first things that I was asked about upon arriving here. If I do post that info, you would judge me on it instead of my words.
Would you rather have a " Yes " man here instead of someone who expresses what they really think?
My language may not be to your liking but you can't always have it your way.
It is conforting to see how popular I've become in such short time.
You are so knowledgable and your "cup" is so full that I'm afraid that there is nothing that you can learn from me.
So perhaps my posts can help the other, less enlightened people on this Forum.
I find it interesting that the only person who can understand my " approach " is the Moderator.
This is not a perfect world and I am suprised at the way that you Ethical and morally upright people treat me.
If I am abrasive then it's fine. I am the village idiot. But You are all suppose to be on the "Path" and you sink to the same level as me. I believe that's called being a Hypocrite. I have to say that I am suprised at the self-rightous retorts of all of you upright highly educated practitioners of the Fighting Arts.
None the less I will continue to post here. I am reluctant to post my rank and experience here since it was one of the first things that I was asked about upon arriving here. If I do post that info, you would judge me on it instead of my words.
Would you rather have a " Yes " man here instead of someone who expresses what they really think?
My language may not be to your liking but you can't always have it your way.
It is conforting to see how popular I've become in such short time.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
This thread has been an interesting read...and I'm sure there is a martial arts theme in here somewhere... LenTesta your point about kata demonstrating the full-out velocity of techniques which would otherwise be devastating to an opponent is something I agree with totally. I firmly believe kata to be a study in muscle memory. When the movement becomes second nature and hopefully, when called upon in a "situation", instinctive. Lone Wolf, one does not have to be abusive to impart knowledge.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You really are being childish.
You are so knowledgable and your "cup" is so full that I'm afraid that there is nothing that you can learn from me.
Actually, there is nothing that anyone WANTS to learn from someone with your attitude. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have anything substantial to offer, your attitude is one that stimulates the gag reflex. I do not speak for the good doctor, or anyone else. However, I also bet that I'm not that far off the mark.
So perhaps my posts can help the other, less enlightened people on this Forum.
Get a clue. YOU have not shown anything of value, other than maybe showing your arrogance and self-importance.
I find it interesting that the only person who can understand my " approach " is the Moderator.
I cannot speak for the Moderator. And neither can you.
This is not a perfect world and I am suprised at the way that you Ethical and morally upright people treat me.
(more whining and crying???)
If I am abrasive then it's fine. I am the village idiot. Agreed. But You are all suppose to be on the "Path" and you sink to the same level as me. I believe that's called being a Hypocrite. I have to say that I am suprised at the self-rightous retorts of all of you upright highly educated practitioners of the Fighting Arts.
No we do not sink to your level. You are the only one demonstrating bottom feeding behavior here.
None the less I will continue to post here. I thought you had threatened to leave this forum. I am disappointed. You obviously are not a man of your words. I am reluctant to post my rank and experience here since it was one of the first things that I was asked about upon arriving here. If I do post that info, you would judge me on it instead of my words.
What are you afraid of? Like I thought, you talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk. Put up or shut up!
Would you rather have a " Yes " man here instead of someone who expresses what they really think?
There are many here that express differences of opinions without being arrogant, obnoxious, and conceited.
My language may not be to your liking but you can't always have it your way.
It has nothing to do with your language. It has EVERYTHING to do with your attitude.
It is conforting to see how popular I've become in such short time.
The village idiot, as YOU describe yourself, is always popular. However, most people strive not to be one.
Show us you have something to offer. Stop being arrogant. Stop the personal insults. Stop the whining. I dare you to be civilized (or is that beyond you).
------------------
Duane
As long as I can annoy you my good Doctor I'll stay. You can cut and paste my posts, critique them to pieces if you like.Originally posted by Lone Wolf:
You really are being childish.
You are so knowledgable and your "cup" is so full that I'm afraid that there is nothing that you can learn from me.
Actually, there is nothing that anyone WANTS to learn from someone with your attitude. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have anything substantial to offer, your attitude is one that stimulates the gag reflex. I do not speak for the good doctor, or anyone else. However, I also bet that I'm not that far off the mark.
So perhaps my posts can help the other, less enlightened people on this Forum.
Get a clue. YOU have not shown anything of value, other than maybe showing your arrogance and self-importance.
I find it interesting that the only person who can understand my " approach " is the Moderator.
I cannot speak for the Moderator. And neither can you.
This is not a perfect world and I am suprised at the way that you Ethical and morally upright people treat me.
(more whining and crying???)
If I am abrasive then it's fine. I am the village idiot. Agreed. But You are all suppose to be on the "Path" and you sink to the same level as me. I believe that's called being a Hypocrite. I have to say that I am suprised at the self-rightous retorts of all of you upright highly educated practitioners of the Fighting Arts.
No we do not sink to your level. You are the only one demonstrating bottom feeding behavior here.
None the less I will continue to post here. I thought you had threatened to leave this forum. I am disappointed. You obviously are not a man of your words. I am reluctant to post my rank and experience here since it was one of the first things that I was asked about upon arriving here. If I do post that info, you would judge me on it instead of my words.
What are you afraid of? Like I thought, you talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk. Put up or shut up!
Would you rather have a " Yes " man here instead of someone who expresses what they really think?
There are many here that express differences of opinions without being arrogant, obnoxious, and conceited.
My language may not be to your liking but you can't always have it your way.
It has nothing to do with your language. It has EVERYTHING to do with your attitude.
It is conforting to see how popular I've become in such short time.
The village idiot, as YOU describe yourself, is always popular. However, most people strive not to be one.
Show us you have something to offer. Stop being arrogant. Stop the personal insults. Stop the whining. I dare you to be civilized (or is that beyond you).
------------------
Duane
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
"Are you for surreal, man?"
Wow, what a weird process. Howling at the moon...
Wow, what a weird process. Howling at the moon...
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
More insults. You are beginning to Bore me.
Duane C,
Interesting how you post on a Topic that has degraded to mere name calling and mud slinging.
How odd that you do not post on the two other "serious" topics that I started.
Could it be that everyone LIKES the mud slinging. And that I am providing everyone with an opportunity that they have not had before on this " Civilized " Forum? The oppurtunity to throw stones and Stir the Pot. Feels good to let the hair down sometimes and let it fly doesn't it.
I will say this.
If ten people post saying that they would like for me to leave, then I will.
But before all of you start to banish me forever, stop and think of the fun and laughs that you have had at my expense.
If you REALLY want me to leave, then I will do so.
Duane C,
Interesting how you post on a Topic that has degraded to mere name calling and mud slinging.
How odd that you do not post on the two other "serious" topics that I started.
Could it be that everyone LIKES the mud slinging. And that I am providing everyone with an opportunity that they have not had before on this " Civilized " Forum? The oppurtunity to throw stones and Stir the Pot. Feels good to let the hair down sometimes and let it fly doesn't it.
I will say this.
If ten people post saying that they would like for me to leave, then I will.
But before all of you start to banish me forever, stop and think of the fun and laughs that you have had at my expense.
If you REALLY want me to leave, then I will do so.
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Is that a yes, Good doctor?
Would you like for me to leave?
Would you like for me to leave?
Dirty gis and Canis Lupus - II
Dr. X-
It is purely a pleasure to read your rhetoric. Skillfully parsed phrases and proper latin too.
Not too sure about the cognac, though. Scotch, on the other hand...
Rory
It is purely a pleasure to read your rhetoric. Skillfully parsed phrases and proper latin too.
Not too sure about the cognac, though. Scotch, on the other hand...
Rory
