Ok,
we have heard, read and seen all about generating power with your body. Hips, large muscle groups, good stance and all that. Now the question is:
How does one generate maximum power on double thrustung motions, such as:
Double strikes in Sanchin
Double Jodan in Kanchu, Seichin, Seiryu etc.
Eye sweeps in Seichin
etc.
Any ideas?
Gene
Double Power
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Gene DeMambro
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Kevin Mackie
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Double Power
The principle is basically the same as for a single thrust, acceleration of the strike with a strong focus and grounding of the feet at the point of impact. Watch someone perform these strikes and you should notice a compression of the body between the hips and shoulders.
Like single thrusts, these strikes also start with the hips and flow up the back,into the shoulders, arms, and finally into the target. It's not unlike the action of a wave moving along a whip or rope.
Putting recoil into the arms after the strike seems to produce more power for me.
Kevin
Like single thrusts, these strikes also start with the hips and flow up the back,into the shoulders, arms, and finally into the target. It's not unlike the action of a wave moving along a whip or rope.
Putting recoil into the arms after the strike seems to produce more power for me.
Kevin
Double Power
Kevin
You have said it all. When we practice our moves this way, I am not only adding power to the movements...I am adding to my mindset.
You have said it all. When we practice our moves this way, I am not only adding power to the movements...I am adding to my mindset.
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Bill Glasheen
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Actually, Gene, I think this is a good question, and I have thought of this very thing.
Your point, if I may further articulate, is that there is a degree of rotational energy used in single strikes or thrusts that cannot be used in double. This is true.
However you still have the ability to compress/expand, and to move your center with or into the thrust.
Double thrusts in sanchin
People do not understand that there can be vertical movement and slight center rocking in our system. When I am doing the double sanchin thrusts or the double boshiken thrusts, I compress just a bit on my rear leg and rock back an infinitesimal amount. I then release that upon thrusting. You really don't see much when observing someone shatter air molecules. But you can feel it when you do double palm thrust on a heavy bag.
Double jodan hirakens
Actually there are two different kinds. In Kanshu, you can picture yourself going around someone's arms grabbing your collar (to use a reference point). In seichin and seiryu, the arms would instead be going inside the fictional grabber's arms. But in any case, the forward movement of the body is all you really need. Once you get the center going, it's like the jouster on the horse; the arms deliver the energy of the translational movement of the total mass.
Eye sweeps in Seichin
To me this is a speed technique. Yes one takes advantage of the forward movement, but it's a bit different. Instead of moving with the power of the center, I think instead that the initial forward movement overcomes the coefficient of static friction (so-to-write). Once moving with the leg, I like to think of the body just expanding out with increasing speed as it gets near the target.
- Bill
Your point, if I may further articulate, is that there is a degree of rotational energy used in single strikes or thrusts that cannot be used in double. This is true.
However you still have the ability to compress/expand, and to move your center with or into the thrust.
Double thrusts in sanchin
People do not understand that there can be vertical movement and slight center rocking in our system. When I am doing the double sanchin thrusts or the double boshiken thrusts, I compress just a bit on my rear leg and rock back an infinitesimal amount. I then release that upon thrusting. You really don't see much when observing someone shatter air molecules. But you can feel it when you do double palm thrust on a heavy bag.
Double jodan hirakens
Actually there are two different kinds. In Kanshu, you can picture yourself going around someone's arms grabbing your collar (to use a reference point). In seichin and seiryu, the arms would instead be going inside the fictional grabber's arms. But in any case, the forward movement of the body is all you really need. Once you get the center going, it's like the jouster on the horse; the arms deliver the energy of the translational movement of the total mass.
Eye sweeps in Seichin
To me this is a speed technique. Yes one takes advantage of the forward movement, but it's a bit different. Instead of moving with the power of the center, I think instead that the initial forward movement overcomes the coefficient of static friction (so-to-write). Once moving with the leg, I like to think of the body just expanding out with increasing speed as it gets near the target.
- Bill
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Allen M.
Double Power
Gene,
Van teaches these things in nothing less than the ultimate.
One of the "secrets" to generate maximum power is to reflect the power that you are sending down onto the floor back up thru your body and out your arms accompanied by both rotational torque and snap, as well as by a vertical compression/expansion element.
Lately, I have been experiencing pretty cool vibrations in my hands and along my forearms when I strike [I'll write about this one in the TC columns for sure as I learn more about it], probably due to this surge of reflected power following the main power by a hundred milliseconds or so.
Sample one of Van Canna Sensei's TC classes, if you can, to find out just how to do it
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Van teaches these things in nothing less than the ultimate.
One of the "secrets" to generate maximum power is to reflect the power that you are sending down onto the floor back up thru your body and out your arms accompanied by both rotational torque and snap, as well as by a vertical compression/expansion element.
Lately, I have been experiencing pretty cool vibrations in my hands and along my forearms when I strike [I'll write about this one in the TC columns for sure as I learn more about it], probably due to this surge of reflected power following the main power by a hundred milliseconds or so.
Sample one of Van Canna Sensei's TC classes, if you can, to find out just how to do it
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
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Bill Glasheen
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Double Power
Allen
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Many of these concepts come under the general category of kinesiology. I’m always running on over to various university bookstores just before classes start and buying up books from various subjects of interest to me. These concepts are usually discussed and taught where folks are getting various Physical Education and Sports Medicine degrees. It's always a plus to have at least one of these graduates in a dojo (and a doctor, and a nurse, and a lawyer, and an E.M.T., and an engineer, and a psychologist, and an educator, and...).
- Bill
You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Gene's point is that what you wrote above (that I put in bold) is not possible in a double thrust. I agree with him 100%. That then only leaves the second element you wrote above (vertical compression/expansion), as well as a third element (translational movement/momentum).One of the "secrets" to generate maximum power is to reflect the power that you are sending down onto the floor back up thru your body and out your arms accompanied by both rotational torque and snap, as well as by a vertical compression/expansion element.
Many of these concepts come under the general category of kinesiology. I’m always running on over to various university bookstores just before classes start and buying up books from various subjects of interest to me. These concepts are usually discussed and taught where folks are getting various Physical Education and Sports Medicine degrees. It's always a plus to have at least one of these graduates in a dojo (and a doctor, and a nurse, and a lawyer, and an E.M.T., and an engineer, and a psychologist, and an educator, and...).
- Bill
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Allen M.
Double Power
Thanks Bill Glasheen-Sensei.
I write from the prospective of having learned how to fight from doing it a lot when I was a kid, and put my thoughts on the forums in a non abrasive manner.
Sometimes I start to feel envious about those who are on campus and can get this wealth of intellectual knowledge from others because it is scholarly, no?
But then I don't, because I just don't have time to read anything but books of my trade , and instead, gravitate in the direction of those who also teach from their personal fighting experience, such as Van, one of the world's foremost Uechi-ryu student and teacher. One class from him can fill many chapters.
And then I think, Bill, with what he has to offer, he should be surrounded by the multitudes and yet he wants only a handful to learn from him. I'll take the empirical stuff over books any day.
No disrespect to you, sensei, because I think you have a terrific forum and I have learned a lot from reading what you and others in it present.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
I write from the prospective of having learned how to fight from doing it a lot when I was a kid, and put my thoughts on the forums in a non abrasive manner.
Sometimes I start to feel envious about those who are on campus and can get this wealth of intellectual knowledge from others because it is scholarly, no?
But then I don't, because I just don't have time to read anything but books of my trade , and instead, gravitate in the direction of those who also teach from their personal fighting experience, such as Van, one of the world's foremost Uechi-ryu student and teacher. One class from him can fill many chapters.
And then I think, Bill, with what he has to offer, he should be surrounded by the multitudes and yet he wants only a handful to learn from him. I'll take the empirical stuff over books any day.
No disrespect to you, sensei, because I think you have a terrific forum and I have learned a lot from reading what you and others in it present.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
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Bill Glasheen
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Allen
No disrepect taken.
Actually it's great to see several paths yield roughly the same information. By adding what you did, you can then look at my thinking from a different source and see we are pretty much in synch. That's a darned good method of validation.
- Bill
No disrepect taken.
Actually it's great to see several paths yield roughly the same information. By adding what you did, you can then look at my thinking from a different source and see we are pretty much in synch. That's a darned good method of validation.
- Bill
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Gary Santaniello
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Gene,
Possibly you may go to Lenny's dojo in Brockton on a Monday night with other Dan Ranks to partake in Van's teaching ?
As Allen suggest, being in Van's class certainly will answer your question (or questions) in a mannor much superior to verbal internet explanation.
I have been to several of his classes and i assure you, doing his class for 2 to 3 hours will help one to understand it much better. Although only one class may not make a large difference in ones performance, it will at least give a good view of the concept.
Double arm thrusting, pulling, ect. can generate much power through the body mechanics and use of lower torso and hips.
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Gary S.
Possibly you may go to Lenny's dojo in Brockton on a Monday night with other Dan Ranks to partake in Van's teaching ?
As Allen suggest, being in Van's class certainly will answer your question (or questions) in a mannor much superior to verbal internet explanation.
I have been to several of his classes and i assure you, doing his class for 2 to 3 hours will help one to understand it much better. Although only one class may not make a large difference in ones performance, it will at least give a good view of the concept.
Double arm thrusting, pulling, ect. can generate much power through the body mechanics and use of lower torso and hips.
------------------
Gary S.
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Joseph Bellone
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- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: MA, USA
Double Power
This is a good thread. Some Chinese systems like Xing Yi really emphasis the vertical expansion/contraction. The Tiger form specifically uses this vertical expansion/contraction in a double thrust movement much like the double thrusts at the end of Sanchin Kata. Another good example is Pi Chuan (splitting fist). It's a very basic downward movement. It's quite natural, watch any toddler hit something.
Bill brings up a good point when describing the physical planes the body can be segmented into and specifically, how effectively energy can be produced by understanding the appropriate rotations or compressions/expansions in order to issue efficient power. A Chinese martial artist once told me that this was really the 'secret' of the Dan Tien. This is the reason why it was the seat of power. Previously, I always thought that the Dan Tien was just the center point of the body and that's why it was the seat of power. But, this really didn't satisy me rationally. What was explained to me was that the Dan Tien was the center point or 'crossroads' of the rotational and expansion/contraction points of the body. The only way to get 'whole body power' was to use and understand these rotational and expansion/contraction principles. It was an interesting way to look at things.
Just my two cents.
Good training,
Joe
Bill brings up a good point when describing the physical planes the body can be segmented into and specifically, how effectively energy can be produced by understanding the appropriate rotations or compressions/expansions in order to issue efficient power. A Chinese martial artist once told me that this was really the 'secret' of the Dan Tien. This is the reason why it was the seat of power. Previously, I always thought that the Dan Tien was just the center point of the body and that's why it was the seat of power. But, this really didn't satisy me rationally. What was explained to me was that the Dan Tien was the center point or 'crossroads' of the rotational and expansion/contraction points of the body. The only way to get 'whole body power' was to use and understand these rotational and expansion/contraction principles. It was an interesting way to look at things.
Just my two cents.
Good training,
Joe
