Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

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LenTesta
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by LenTesta »

Duane, Nice Website is this the new site you were refering to a few months ago?

I agree with your philosophy of teaching/correcting one or two at most movements at a time. Most students who have too many "mistakes" pointed out to them, often feel as though they were not doing any of them right! They will not remember more than two corrections anyway. I have seen students perform a kata immediately after I had given them a correction, and not make any attempt to "fix" it. Image

Now what I do not agree with is: Why do you need more than the original three? What usefulness could the five bridging kata have to you?

Then you answer: I believe that the answer lies in teaching them to others. Because you are only teaching a few new movements at a time, it allows both the teacher and student to explore these techniques in greater detail, focusing on all aspects of the movement (i.e., stance, balance, control, power, etc.). Yes, you could teach just the three kata and still learn the movements. But would you really spend as much time on each individual movement? (For some, maybe so, for others, maybe not)

I believe that the katas are a way to learn different sequences of the same movements. Have you ever performed the katas in reverse (from the last movement to the first) or use the opposing limbs? This will add to your versatility in defending. What do you do if a person attacks you with a stick in the left hand (kanshiwa bunkai)instead of the right. Will you perform the same counterattack or will you do the horse stance and block with the other limbs?

I like the "bridge katas" for this reason. they show the same moves as the original three in different sequences.

I am in the process of making up my own kata. Because I am such a perfectionist (and this is not always best) I have only the first 2 sets of movements completed after 10 years of on and off again construction of it. I am always looking deeper into the kata movements to see what attacks I can defend against more efficiently.

And once again I agree with you when you state that Americans need to "slow down and smell the coffee". Another reason that we need the bridge katas is that Americans by nature need to see improvement at various stages of their learning. That is mostly why the ranking system is what is here in the "states". Also look at our school system, would you attain the same knowledge in a school sysytem where you were not "promoted" to a higher grade every year? Of course the curriculum would change, the teachers would change, the only thing not changing is your "grade" until you graduate. I think we need to feel that we accomplished something up to a point and when promoted you continue on to another point. The different katas appear to do the same for me.

Maurice-san
That makes a lot of sense and I know you are right. I have heard of the "L" and "R" misprounced by Japanese actors in Hollywood Movies. Image
Maybe I can post one of these someday witout editing my mistakes.



[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Maurice

Yes, there are both long and silent vowels that add more complexity to the pronunciation, as well as a unique sound to the "r". As an example of what Maurice is saying... Sokuto geri (soku-to geri) translates literally as "foot-sword kick." But one does not say sew-COO-toe GARE-ree. Taking into account the silent "u" (very common with "u"), the Japanese "r", and the staccato-like pronunciation of the language, it is a lot more like SOKto (long "O" and "o") GHEtti (as in spaghetti).

And then there are the regional pronunciations and the Okinawan dialects... Y'all get tha picture? It doesn't take a Hahvahd explanation to give youse guys a headache.

Stay tuned...Gary and his Okinawan wife are making a Uechi pronunciation tape, to be sold at a store near you.

LenTesta

You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
“hawk chasing the sparrow block” (forgive me, I do not know the correct name) from Seichin
Please give the context of this technique with such a colorful description. I'll pass on the name.

You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Where can I find the calligraphy of the kata's? I wish to display them on a wall in my dojo, with the English translation.
Ideally you want the kanji (the characters), the romanji (the Arabic alphabet phonetics as opposed to the hiragana phonetic symbols) and the English meanings. I have supplied you with the correct romanji and the translations (or contextual origins), syllable by syllable. You just need the characters.

I looked around a bit. The quickest way for you to go from zero to finished is to buy (or borrow) Alan Dollar's book Secrets of Uechi Ryu Karate See the following pages:

383: sanchin
398: seisan
414: sanseiryu
432: suparempe (sic*) and kanshiwa
433: kanshu, seichin, seirui (sic**), and kanchin


* It’s either suparinpe or suparinpei, depending on what source you look at. Alan gets it right on another page (37) of his book.

** The correct romanji for this kata is seiryu. He gets the "ryu" syllable right on page 414. Note the same last character for seiryu and sanseiryu.

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I have had to erase, re-edit, and re-post the last message about a half dozen times. It's amazing how even the best authors (and Alan's book is a great piece of work) have spelling anomalies in them. Some of this may have to do with the way things are pronounced. Actually if you ask Gary, he will say that you pronouce the 6th kata as "seiroo" and the eighth kata as "sanseiroo" (with a Japanese "r"). So it's easy to understand where spelling errors creep in, even for those with great diction. It took several times of looking at this last post and Alan's book to get it right.
Duane C
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Duane C »

Len,

Thanks for the compliment on my website.

Regarding whether I favor 3 or 8 kata, I might not have been very clear in my first post. Personally, I like to focus the majority of my own training on the three main kata. However, I prefer to teach all eight because I am continually revisiting all of the moves, often in painstaking detail. Also, I like your idea about doing them with opposing limbs. I often demonstrate the kata movements while facing the class, and I do them mirror imaged. It's hard at first, but gets easy after a while.


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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by BILLY B »

Van-Sensei,

Why, are you suggesting we should "look deep"? Image

Do you think if Kanbun had been trained in the modern kata/system(puting in the same amount of hours as he did long ago, of course) that he would have been any less of a fighter? Other factors such as the time and place he existed in seem to be just as important.

Times have changed. Folks in the U.S. are running around like chickens with thier heads cut off. "multi-tasker", I believe Bill-Sensei calls himself. We could all certainly benefit from concentrating more on fewer things, a simpler life style, etc. I think the new kata do a good job of fooling the newer student, thats all. Advanced practicioners will eventually reach the same conclusion you have, I think. Some newer students, like Jake will "get it" right off the bat. Others won't feel challenged, because they have not embraced the "look deep" mindset.

You are an elite guy who teaches an advanced curriculum to other elite minded folks. Thats cool, and I would love to work out under your guidance sometime!

Do you think we can retain the majority of "headless chickens" through the kyu ranks and into the lower dan ranks without a little disguise of repetition? There may be "better" ways to do this, I don't know. All I can say is I enjoy the other kata, and I did learn things from them over the years.

How would you retain student interest, and still stick with the more concentrated method? (I understand this may not apply to you personaly as you do not depend on your teaching for your main source of income.) Have you ever considered this? Or is the better approach to just "do it right" and have a small dojo? I'm not just asking for me, or for you, but for the whole Uechi community here in the Distracted States of America.

ps, I hope this was not too much of a rant. Its a good topic, and I guess I have some passion about it. Thanks Jake!
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Jake Steinmann
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Jake Steinmann »

Huh. Some interesting responses. Very cool, actually. I know of some systems where I would have simply been attacked as a lowly underank who doesn't "understand" the system yet, and should simply shut up and follow party line. It's a credit to this forum and the people who frequent it that we can have these kinds of discussions.

Now that I've buttered you all up with compliments...

"Yes, you could teach just the three kata and still learn the movements. But would you really spend as much time on each individual movement? (For some, maybe so, for others, maybe not)"

Honestly, I believe you'd spend more time focusing with three kata rather than eight.

Let's consider...you're going to practice what you know, right? If you have only three kata to work with, you will be forced to explore those kata to their fullest extent and beyond. You will practice them backwords, forwards, both sides, upside-down, and with your gi inside out! Why? Beacause you have only a small set of techniques to master.

In my experience, having more kata simply causes students to want to get to those kata faster. In the kung fu system I study, our current cirriculum contains 12 kata. I know about 20, and my sifu knows even more. That's not bragging..it's actually irritating to me. Many students simply want to rush, rush, rush to the next form. I'd rather stop, and work with just a few. Heck, I think I could work with just one for a long time.

If you give your students more to chase, they'll chase it. But if you take that away...they're left with just what you gave them.

Coming up with different sequences for movements? Can't we do that on our own? Do we really need some extra kata just to switch our feet around?

Van sensei makes a very good point: Many people only have a couple of hours a week to train: Why not get the most out of that time?

I believe (could be wrong) that if you tell a new student that everything s/he needs in contained in three kata, they will spend their time desperately trying to figure out every little nuance of it.

Jake


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paul giella
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by paul giella »

J.D.,
Consider that lotus, skillfully prepared by a talented chef, can be quite a delicacy if served at the right time! And does not keep one from eating all the raw steak he wants at other meals.
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Van Canna
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Van Canna »

Tomoyose –sensei, while at the Rengokay seminar in Florida, said that the “bridge katas” were developed for demonstration purposes and, yes, to hold more of an interest in the style.
He also said that he was instrumental in developing some of those kata, but that as far as he was concerned, Uechi-Ryu was made up of three katas, and that is all he ever practiced.

Kind of reminds me of this:

<blockquote> Timeo hominem unius libri</blockquote>

Which means, “ I fear the man of one book”!

An observation attributed to Aquinas that a person steeped in a single source is a formidable opponent in debate.

Now think of the modern day dojo “classes”__ One hour, maybe 90 minutes if you are lucky,
Twice a week if you are lucky. Think of how much time you spend on learning many new Kata movements as opposed to the depth of performance of the “big Three”, think how much more conditioned you would be if you spent more of that “bridge kata” time to condition yourself better, work bunkai understanding better, and free style more, hit the bag more.

Yeah I know, Kanbun and his “Ilk” must have been a bunch of “weaklings” because they only practiced three kata! Image

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited April 19, 2000).]
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LenTesta
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by LenTesta »

Sensei Glasheen
Thank You for the Japanese Language lesson.

So many times I have heard instructors say "LOCK" meaning number six, instead of Roku. I often wondered why the rank Rokyu(spelling?)was not called Lockyu. Maybe this is why some have refered to the Kata Seiryu as "Seilooi". Further I also thought that the number 4 was "chi" which was how most of the instructors I have had in the past pronounced it.

The names of the katas and their meanings were always described to me in the past by Sensei Bethoney, and I knew what they meant although I did not know the literal translation. This information will help me in my teaching.

I wish to point out that in my previous post, I spelled the kata name of Konshu wrong. I knew the spelling was Kanshu. Sometimes my thoughts are quicker than my fingers. OK, ALL the time!

Question for you to answer please, Mr Glasheen! Where can I find the caligraphy of the kata's? I wish to display them on a wall in my dojo, with the English translation.

[This message has been edited by LenTesta (edited April 19, 2000).]
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Duane C »

Great topic, and lots of good responses. Others have posted most of what I would have contributed, so I'll keep it brief. Here's my $0.02

I like the bridging kata. I believe they have tremendous value to those who wish to look deep into the katas. I really started to appreciate them when I started teaching.

My philosophy in teaching is to never teach/correct more than a couple of things at a time. I find this method very effective. It is hard enough to learn one or two things, let alone an entire complex sequence. The bridging kata appear to do just that. It gives the students a few new movements at a time to learn, explore, and become proficient with.

Now let's suppose you know all eight kata. Why do you need more than the original three? What usefulness could the five bridging kata have to you? I believe that the answer lies in teaching them to others. Because you are only teaching a few new movements at a time, it allows both the teacher and student to explore these techniques in greater detail, focusing on all aspects of the movement (i.e., stance, balance, control, power, etc.). Yes, you could teach just the three kata and still learn the movements. But would you really spend as much time on each individual movement? (For some, maybe so, for others, maybe not)

I believe that it forces one to "slow down and smell the coffee", and for most of us impatient Americans, that's not a bad thing.

MHO,

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LenTesta
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by LenTesta »

Jake-
Again good points.

All of the moves in the bridge katas are from the original three. Yes you only NEED to study the main katas to learn the moves.

I believe most students would rather have someone else do the extensive work of creating katas in different sequences for them, and then practice them until they know them inside and out. I still think that Kanei and the Seniors were geniuses when they invented the other 5 katas. They gradually introduce some new movements, and these are at a level the student will be able to comprehend, in different sequences. Again genius at work! I bow to them! I will forever be in awe!

Try to make up a decent kata sometime. You will forever analyze each movement and sequence (I am), throwing out and adding in move after move until you feel it is right (IF).

Glasheen-Sensei
I cannot take credit for the description of the block I was refering to in Seichin. Bethoney Sensei has always used the "hawk chasing the sparrow" analogy to refer to the block.

I am refering to the block that is performed in the cat stance. I like to teach students (of driving age or older) to practice this block using a car steering wheel. I show them to place their hands at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock on the wheel and as they "make a right turn", keeping both hands on the wheel, when the hands get to 12 and 6, take the bottom hand off the wheel and bring it up to the windshield going over the wheel at 12 o'clock, while continuing to "steer" with the top hand until it gets to 7 o'clock timing both together. Of course do not practice this while actually driving the car. Image

I think that Allan Moulton has the correct name of this block in his book, but I do not have it remembered verbotum yet.

Yes, it is the kanji of the katas that I want. Thank you for refering me to Alan Dollars book. I will attain a copy.

Len Testa
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by paul giella »

Jake,
Since the idea for this thread came to you in the shower you may be interested to know that Musashi himself never showered! Well, he 'showered' only in the deep woods during the rain. Why? Because he refused to observe the civilized Japanese custom of putting his swords aside ( leaving them in the locker room, as it were) in order to enter the bath houses. So...already you are ahead of him.
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Len

Actually the technique doesn't really have a single Japanese name (that I know of); each of the individual components has a name.

* The outside scooping block is harai sukui uke

* The inside scooping block is hirate sukui uke

* The leg lift is often called hiza uke (knee block)

But frankly these names don't do it justice. I know more applications to this one move than to any other move in the system past sanchin kata. There are blocks, strikes, thrusts, foot attacks, throws (many), weapon movements (bo), etc.

Perhaps "hawk chasing sparrow" is as good as it gets.

- Bill
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Jake Steinmann »

Giella Sensei,
I dunno...once I start carrying around that pair of Daisho, I might have to give up showering.
On the other hand, that might rid me of the training partners I have left...

Mr. Testa
First of all, yes I have tried to create a kata at one point, and I do agree...it's damn difficult. The old masters are to be commended for their efforts.
Notice how my rants always start with a compliment?
The problem with that rationale I have is this. In a combat situation, you will rarely, if ever, perform the movements of a kata in the exact order that they occur in the kata. In order to be able to apply those tools and tactics, you must be able to create combinations based on the movements of the kata spontaneously...as the situation dictates. If you have to spend five to ten years in contemplation to come up with a new combination, you're going to have some serious problems in sparring, to say nothing of a real confrontation.
I'm not knocking the process of creating a kata...it is a long a difficult process, which I have not even come close to completing.
The purpose of this thread was never to encourage the creation or addition of new kata to anyones practice. On the contrary. It was to suggest that if "all is in the three", then we might want to devote ourselves to exploring those three as much as possible.
You want variation? Try this: Do your three kata. Then, do it on the opposite side. Then, do it with the movements out of order...say, in reverse. Then, do it like that, on the opposite side. The possibilities are limited only by your imagination.
Bruce Lee writes "accumulation of forms, just one more modification of conditioning, becomes an anchor that holds and ties down; it leads only one way - down"
More food for thought...or the shower, if you're partial to that sort of thing.

Jake

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Seth Rosenblatt
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Musashi and kata (It's not what you think)

Post by Seth Rosenblatt »

What I find most interesting is that by the time I get around to reading an entire thread, not only have most of my opinions been expressed with more elan and clarity than I am graced with, but Jake tends to get the last word in edgewise!

Anyway, my feeling on the "other five" is that they are improved by working on Sanchin (a sentiment previously expressed here). Personally, I practice all of my kata on the opposite side. (I'm waiting for the magnetic ceiling to arrive so I can train upside-down, backwards, on the opposite side with my gi inside-out.)

However, even if they were created to keep the interest of young students, this does not denigrate their importance. For one thing, I place much more pressure on myself when I practice Sanchin or Seisan. I can't vouch for anyone else, but given the intensity of spirit that many of us train with, I wouldn't be surprised if I was the only one who did this. Performing other kata allows me to "mess around subconsciously" with the kata in a way that I am reluctant to with my Sanchin or Seisan. Does that mean that I am opposed to exploring new aspects of the kata? No. What I'm trying to say is that there is a certain freedom in practicing forms that do not carry the emotional/historical weight of the Big Three.

Having just reread this, a lot of it sounds like bs, but I still feel there is some truth to it - maybe to be explored later...
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