The following is from the March/April 1999 issue of The Karate Voice, a south Florida MA newspaper. If anybody wants to see the entire original article, please let me know and I will fax a copy to you.
"Earlier this year, ten year old "SG" became one of the youngest certified third degree belts in the world. "S" is a two time Tae Kwon Do national champion and a ten time Florida martial arts state champion. (The state championships are usually held once a year!?) He has won a gold medal in the 1996 and 1998 Tae Kwon Do Junior Olympics. He is arguably the best young martial artist in Florida."
Just about this time last year, GEM conducted a monthly survey on "Junior Black Belts". Opinions ran the full spectrum. The young man in the above article apparently is a regular, not junior, black belt. Now I am not familiar with TKD and don't know if they use the JBB title or not, so please correct me if I am wrong.
If this kid started training at 4 years of age and keeps up the good work, and maintains his current achievement of rank, he could attain Judan before the ripe old age of 25!!
Not to take away from the young man's apparent physical talents, but where does long years of training, responsibility, and maturity fit into the overall assessment of what rank is appropriate for young martial arts students?
Is the Junior Black Belt the appropriate vehicle for students under 16? And how many grades of JBB are needed?
Are instructors just fooling themselves and their students (and their parents) by issuing black belts (junior or otherwise) to their young charges? Oh, I know we have to maintain the reward system and give the kids something to aim for but are we doing the right thing?
I have been to many open tournys and watched smiling parents dragging their little 6 year old black belt around from ring to ring with the kid being either smug of attitude or not caring in the least bit.
After all, it's only a piece of cloth, right?
Yeah.
Moe Mensale
mjmensale@aol.com
Kids and Black Belts
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Moe Mensale
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Allen M.
Kids and Black Belts
Hello Moe.
Kiddie black belts are popular in TKD, and they are called black-belts, not juniors, except unofficially by seniors. And there are some excellent performers, see it at any major tournament, often far outshining adults in kata, weapons, etc., although they lack the strength.
Personally, I am not in favor of anyone under 18 wearing a black belt, and am witholding even considering submitting either of my two sons for a bb promotional for until they are at least 18.
I have taught black belt kids in TKD and am of the strong opinion that it is too much of a head trip for a youngster.
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
Kiddie black belts are popular in TKD, and they are called black-belts, not juniors, except unofficially by seniors. And there are some excellent performers, see it at any major tournament, often far outshining adults in kata, weapons, etc., although they lack the strength.
Personally, I am not in favor of anyone under 18 wearing a black belt, and am witholding even considering submitting either of my two sons for a bb promotional for until they are at least 18.
I have taught black belt kids in TKD and am of the strong opinion that it is too much of a head trip for a youngster.
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
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JOHN THURSTON
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Kids and Black Belts
Although these kids have excellent talents and great potential, I am with Allen on this.
JOHN T
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JOHN T
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Kids and Black Belts
J.D.
I think we need to keep separate the issue of issuing ADULT black belts to kids and JUNIOR black belts to kids. One can justifiably criticize anyone for awarding an adult rank to a child.
But....This past fall I awarded my first JUNIOR black belt. The young man was 15 years old, capable of doing the material better than 50% of existing adult shodans, gets straight A's in school, is a decent kid, also plays soccer and is in the school band, etc, etc. The only thing lacking is life's vicissitudes and the full brunt of puberty. Why shouldn't I find a way of recognizing that he can face any adult in dan kumite - at any level of their adult power - and function quite gracefully? Why shouldn't I recongnize the fact that he can do a better seisan jump than 98% of adults can ever HOPE to do? (he and his brothers are virtual grasshoppers). Why shouldn't I recongnize the fact that he can walk on the tips of his sokusens and put a permanent dent in your ribs with the technique if he wants to?
When he becomes an adult, then I will be ready to award an adult rank to him.
Bill
I think we need to keep separate the issue of issuing ADULT black belts to kids and JUNIOR black belts to kids. One can justifiably criticize anyone for awarding an adult rank to a child.
But....This past fall I awarded my first JUNIOR black belt. The young man was 15 years old, capable of doing the material better than 50% of existing adult shodans, gets straight A's in school, is a decent kid, also plays soccer and is in the school band, etc, etc. The only thing lacking is life's vicissitudes and the full brunt of puberty. Why shouldn't I find a way of recognizing that he can face any adult in dan kumite - at any level of their adult power - and function quite gracefully? Why shouldn't I recongnize the fact that he can do a better seisan jump than 98% of adults can ever HOPE to do? (he and his brothers are virtual grasshoppers). Why shouldn't I recongnize the fact that he can walk on the tips of his sokusens and put a permanent dent in your ribs with the technique if he wants to?
When he becomes an adult, then I will be ready to award an adult rank to him.
Bill
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Allen M.
Kids and Black Belts
Hello Bill,
I say, if a 15-year-old is better than 50% of the adult shodans, forgo the junior part of the name of the rank and waive the age. Your boy is truly an exception and you should be bursting with pride to be the instructor of such a fine outstanding student.
The problem I know about the junior ratings, in what I have seen - and different than the above paragraph, is junior bb's are often handed out like candy. It doesn't take too many years for kids classes to become top-heavy (the weight of the swollen heads) with row after row of pre-adolescent and pre-teen what.
Only a few of these whats excel, but in the name of economy and paying for the mercedes and the swimming pool, these kids have to test every couple of months in order to pay their testing fees which increase as their rank number decreases. At $200 to $300 a pop and, even more, it is difficult to pass that avenue if revenue. Now since a kid is going to get to the top of his gup or kyu rating fast if he tests every 2 months, he is soon going to get bored with his brown or red belt. So to prevent him from being demoralized (forget the cash intake for the moment, that's not important), and to prevent him from wanting to quit (remembering the intake), the only obvious next thing to do is for him to test for an additional rag.
But there is a brighter side to all this.<font color=orange>
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
I say, if a 15-year-old is better than 50% of the adult shodans, forgo the junior part of the name of the rank and waive the age. Your boy is truly an exception and you should be bursting with pride to be the instructor of such a fine outstanding student.
The problem I know about the junior ratings, in what I have seen - and different than the above paragraph, is junior bb's are often handed out like candy. It doesn't take too many years for kids classes to become top-heavy (the weight of the swollen heads) with row after row of pre-adolescent and pre-teen what.
Only a few of these whats excel, but in the name of economy and paying for the mercedes and the swimming pool, these kids have to test every couple of months in order to pay their testing fees which increase as their rank number decreases. At $200 to $300 a pop and, even more, it is difficult to pass that avenue if revenue. Now since a kid is going to get to the top of his gup or kyu rating fast if he tests every 2 months, he is soon going to get bored with his brown or red belt. So to prevent him from being demoralized (forget the cash intake for the moment, that's not important), and to prevent him from wanting to quit (remembering the intake), the only obvious next thing to do is for him to test for an additional rag.
But there is a brighter side to all this.<font color=orange>
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
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Allen M.
Kids and Black Belts
P.S. The word 'gup' above has no relation to Dr. X's guppies, but instead is the kyu ranks of the Korean styles. <font color=blue>
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
Kids and Black Belts
Granted, I am not an instructor, I am still a student. Yet, I can understand why someone would not want to give a child a "full" black belt until the child is of age. The black belt is expected to be a leader, not merely a technician. As in other areas of human activity, I have noticed that children tend to be more adept at learning and imitating and regurgitating what they know, but rarely can create or improvise. A perfect analogy is music, where a young/child musician may be able to play faster or rattle off more scales, yet the expression that comes with time, the emotions, the ability to do more with less, is usually not present.
Be that as it may, I know if I were a child taking a martial art I would not care if I had gotten a junior black belt yet was not allowed to continue up the ranks as long as I was STILL LEARNING SOMETHING. That should be the issue; is the child still LEARNING SOMETHING?
Using myself as an example: Right now, I have learned all I need to know in terms of INFORMATION for my current rank. I still have areas I need to tune up, and other criteria my teacher wants me to meet (he wants me to do another tournament because he feels that it will help me since I've joined this organization from another one at a high gup rank already and he wants me to have the experience of competing at the brown belt level, but anyway) but I am respecting his wishes. Could I be a jerk, switch centers in the organization and get that desired rank? Of course. Will I? Of course not. Why? Because I respect my Sabunim and I am learning something and beefing up what I need to work on. I have also started learning how to apply the empty-hand forms to weapons; this is outside my requirements. Studying this stuff does take away from time I could spend on the material I know I will be GRADED on. I don't need it to advance, but I asked and my teachers felt that I was ready, so I am okay with it.
Having said all of this, I think that if the child has the junior ranking, but is still learning, then there shouldn't be a problem. If the kid just gets fed up and quits because he can't have that STATUS then it is not the instructor's problem; the child needs to fine tune their values. HOWEVER, if the child is merely stagnating at a point when s/he is clearly capable of learning more, than I for one would not blame him/her for quitting. As a parent, I will tell you that if my child is not learning anything at a particular activity, NOT because of his or her lack of motivation (which would be my first assumption--face it, kids can be lazy) but because they've exceeded the requirements of the program, than it IS time for them to move on. I'm not going to yank them out because of my ego or the child's ego, but if I know that my child is better off somewhere else, then I will yank him out of the program or let him quit.
I've seen kids (and have been myself when I was a kid) low-balled academically due to some quirky teacher. It is not very common, but it DOES happen. I would not be at all surprised (though I have yet to see it--what I do see is a bunch of non-fighting senior gups and 1st degree black belts out there) if this doesn't happen in the martial arts. Besides, if a kid has clearly gotten down one style (say a karate style) then the kid will only grow if s/he takes up another type of style (say going from karate to aikido or judo or jujitsu to kickboxing or taekwondo).
I think that the whole hype around young black belts is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. These instructors want the cash so the rank comes fast. A good student is a good student, doesn't care about what's around their waste, and will stay with a teacher for as long as is reasonable. The only thing that made ME stop training as a teenager was that my first instructor moved, then I had to go away to college.
Cecil
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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net
Be that as it may, I know if I were a child taking a martial art I would not care if I had gotten a junior black belt yet was not allowed to continue up the ranks as long as I was STILL LEARNING SOMETHING. That should be the issue; is the child still LEARNING SOMETHING?
Using myself as an example: Right now, I have learned all I need to know in terms of INFORMATION for my current rank. I still have areas I need to tune up, and other criteria my teacher wants me to meet (he wants me to do another tournament because he feels that it will help me since I've joined this organization from another one at a high gup rank already and he wants me to have the experience of competing at the brown belt level, but anyway) but I am respecting his wishes. Could I be a jerk, switch centers in the organization and get that desired rank? Of course. Will I? Of course not. Why? Because I respect my Sabunim and I am learning something and beefing up what I need to work on. I have also started learning how to apply the empty-hand forms to weapons; this is outside my requirements. Studying this stuff does take away from time I could spend on the material I know I will be GRADED on. I don't need it to advance, but I asked and my teachers felt that I was ready, so I am okay with it.
Having said all of this, I think that if the child has the junior ranking, but is still learning, then there shouldn't be a problem. If the kid just gets fed up and quits because he can't have that STATUS then it is not the instructor's problem; the child needs to fine tune their values. HOWEVER, if the child is merely stagnating at a point when s/he is clearly capable of learning more, than I for one would not blame him/her for quitting. As a parent, I will tell you that if my child is not learning anything at a particular activity, NOT because of his or her lack of motivation (which would be my first assumption--face it, kids can be lazy) but because they've exceeded the requirements of the program, than it IS time for them to move on. I'm not going to yank them out because of my ego or the child's ego, but if I know that my child is better off somewhere else, then I will yank him out of the program or let him quit.
I've seen kids (and have been myself when I was a kid) low-balled academically due to some quirky teacher. It is not very common, but it DOES happen. I would not be at all surprised (though I have yet to see it--what I do see is a bunch of non-fighting senior gups and 1st degree black belts out there) if this doesn't happen in the martial arts. Besides, if a kid has clearly gotten down one style (say a karate style) then the kid will only grow if s/he takes up another type of style (say going from karate to aikido or judo or jujitsu to kickboxing or taekwondo).
I think that the whole hype around young black belts is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. These instructors want the cash so the rank comes fast. A good student is a good student, doesn't care about what's around their waste, and will stay with a teacher for as long as is reasonable. The only thing that made ME stop training as a teenager was that my first instructor moved, then I had to go away to college.
Cecil
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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net
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Moe Mensale
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Boca Raton, FL
Kids and Black Belts
Hi Cecil,
One of the things a good instructor will endeavor to teach to their students is discipline. Just because the student has learned all the technical aspects of the art, does not necessarily mean that they are ready for shodan.
Remember those words such as character, humility, responsibility and maturity? That is not learned by gathering a "required" number of classes under your belt. It only comes through the perseverance of time.
As far as growing in an art is concerned, you don't do that by simply taking up a new art. All that happens is that you may become aware of some new techniques, and even that is a fallacy of sorts, after all, a front kick is a front kick is a front kick. If you want to really grow in an art, you begin to learn the intangible things such as mentioned above.
BTY, any good instructor will also be a good student!
All,
One of the points I made in my original post was the number of ranks for the JBB. Before I left my original instructor, he had just instituted the rank of 2nd degree JBB (black belt with a red horizontal stripe). Should there be JBB grades beyond 1st degree? How many? Where do we stop?
Moe Mensale
One of the things a good instructor will endeavor to teach to their students is discipline. Just because the student has learned all the technical aspects of the art, does not necessarily mean that they are ready for shodan.
Remember those words such as character, humility, responsibility and maturity? That is not learned by gathering a "required" number of classes under your belt. It only comes through the perseverance of time.
As far as growing in an art is concerned, you don't do that by simply taking up a new art. All that happens is that you may become aware of some new techniques, and even that is a fallacy of sorts, after all, a front kick is a front kick is a front kick. If you want to really grow in an art, you begin to learn the intangible things such as mentioned above.
BTY, any good instructor will also be a good student!
All,
One of the points I made in my original post was the number of ranks for the JBB. Before I left my original instructor, he had just instituted the rank of 2nd degree JBB (black belt with a red horizontal stripe). Should there be JBB grades beyond 1st degree? How many? Where do we stop?
Moe Mensale
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Moe Mensale
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Boca Raton, FL
Kids and Black Belts
JD,
Basically, yes. Whatever junior rank the student is when s/he turns 16, their next promotion would be at the adult level. If I am a junior nidan, my next test after 16 would be to adult sandan.
I don't really believe that we'll (Uechi) have the proliferation of junior dans that other systems have, but....
Which brings us to another point. Should we automatically assume that a junior whatever rank is qualified to test for an adult rank above shodan? Or should the JBB have to start over at the adult shodan level?
Earlier this week I found myself near a kenpo studio so I went in and took a seat. Would you believe that there were a couple of adult students wearing camoflage belts? What the hell rank is that? Is that any relation to the coveted Junior Rokudan belt?
Moe Mensale
Basically, yes. Whatever junior rank the student is when s/he turns 16, their next promotion would be at the adult level. If I am a junior nidan, my next test after 16 would be to adult sandan.
I don't really believe that we'll (Uechi) have the proliferation of junior dans that other systems have, but....
Which brings us to another point. Should we automatically assume that a junior whatever rank is qualified to test for an adult rank above shodan? Or should the JBB have to start over at the adult shodan level?
Earlier this week I found myself near a kenpo studio so I went in and took a seat. Would you believe that there were a couple of adult students wearing camoflage belts? What the hell rank is that? Is that any relation to the coveted Junior Rokudan belt?
Moe Mensale
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Kids and Black Belts
Re the camo belt: Two years ago, Mattson sensei sold a few camo gis for camp and one of our gang from VA ordered one. Sure enough, it came with a camo belt. What rank is that? Hmmm.....I'll check my NRA guidebook or one of my soldier of fortune mags.
JD -Maybe it is a 'salamander' or perhaps some reptile or amphibian rank. Does not compare to small fry though.
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Rich in Richmond on the James
JD -Maybe it is a 'salamander' or perhaps some reptile or amphibian rank. Does not compare to small fry though.
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Rich in Richmond on the James
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Steven Goss
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 1999 6:01 am
Kids and Black Belts
What is a junior blsck belt?
One of the things I have always liked about our system is that we all have (or should have) the weight of and organization behind us that is bigger than the individual. An award of a dan rank carries the sanction of the organization.
I understand the need to give recognition to a child for the time and effort he/she had put in, and the skill displayed, but a junior black belt can only be "provsional", couldn't it? Much better to find other ways of recognizing effort and talent. I do not agree with the idea that we pass an individual at minimum age to anything above shodan. What happens when the individual reaches the point when chronological age becomes part of the requirement for higher ranks? A person passing for sandan at 16, 18 or whenever would have a long, long time to wait for promotions to senior ranks. Will this person leave because of the wait? Better the impatience waould have encouraged them to leave sooner.
Bill--I agree with Allen; if you have a 15 year old who has the time in, and the skill and conditioning, test him for shodan proudly!
Cecil--I was with my sensei for a long time. I learned the technical material of our system long ago. But as time goes on, I know there is much I have to learn within the material. And if I still lived near enough to my sensei to remain a student at his dojo, I would still be there. I may know the technical material, but I will never get bored with it.
Have children wait until they are old enough for an unconditional shodan. Invent a million color shades for their brown belts. The ones that stay will be better for it and will have a greater sense of accomplishment for the achievement.
SG
One of the things I have always liked about our system is that we all have (or should have) the weight of and organization behind us that is bigger than the individual. An award of a dan rank carries the sanction of the organization.
I understand the need to give recognition to a child for the time and effort he/she had put in, and the skill displayed, but a junior black belt can only be "provsional", couldn't it? Much better to find other ways of recognizing effort and talent. I do not agree with the idea that we pass an individual at minimum age to anything above shodan. What happens when the individual reaches the point when chronological age becomes part of the requirement for higher ranks? A person passing for sandan at 16, 18 or whenever would have a long, long time to wait for promotions to senior ranks. Will this person leave because of the wait? Better the impatience waould have encouraged them to leave sooner.
Bill--I agree with Allen; if you have a 15 year old who has the time in, and the skill and conditioning, test him for shodan proudly!
Cecil--I was with my sensei for a long time. I learned the technical material of our system long ago. But as time goes on, I know there is much I have to learn within the material. And if I still lived near enough to my sensei to remain a student at his dojo, I would still be there. I may know the technical material, but I will never get bored with it.
Have children wait until they are old enough for an unconditional shodan. Invent a million color shades for their brown belts. The ones that stay will be better for it and will have a greater sense of accomplishment for the achievement.
SG
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Allen M.
Kids and Black Belts
Steven,
Kids can be doing karate for a long time, esp. if they started young and continue through adulthood. Rank levels with kids, because of this, seems to be quite problematic. They need to move up too else they get bored really fast.
I really like your idea of a "million colors" and why not 20 levels for them instead of just 10. Just a thought.<font color=orange>
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
Kids can be doing karate for a long time, esp. if they started young and continue through adulthood. Rank levels with kids, because of this, seems to be quite problematic. They need to move up too else they get bored really fast.
I really like your idea of a "million colors" and why not 20 levels for them instead of just 10. Just a thought.<font color=orange>
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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org
Kids and Black Belts
The child in the article that Moe-san quoted sounds like the pawn of his instructors and/or style trying to use a talented kid to further their own interests. Kind of like a music group custom-made for mass-market appeal - a la "Spice Girls" or some such thing. It's a perfect example of a martial arts style crossing over to the extreme edge for publicity.
My definition of "black belt" contains qualities that are impossible to attain at such a tender age. Sixteen is a bit young for many of those qualities as well - all though there are exceptions. I do however accept a "junior black belt" rank for those children who have spent many years of dedicated practice in the martial arts. It is discouraging for them to work out seriously for 8 years or so and see adults start brand-new off the street and make a shodan rank while the youngster is still a kyu.
As long as the student is learning something - the rank shouldn't matter right? What about the above example? I currently have a nine year old student who does such a sharp seisan he puts many adult brown belts to shame. (I believe that Mattson Sensei might agree with me - this child was in his seminar) This kid has been seriously working out for almost 5 years now, (3x/week +) and HAS seen adults start studying after he has already been there, and move through the ranks to shodan - yet he understands that age is a factor with more senior rank - and has never once complained about being a green belt for so long. After he reaches the age of 11 however, I will test him for a jr. shodan rank if he continues working out as hard and keeps progressing as well as he is currently.
Our dojo has only recently added the rank of "junior blackbelt" with the approval of our Sensei's sensei - a senior-senior who is very well respected within multiple "factions" of the uechi-ryu extended family. He has a very successful dojo, teaches outside of his dojo as well, and has run many successful children's programs. He is in constant demand to teach not only in the United States, but also overseas. I believe that his institution of the jr. dan ranks is more child-oriented than $$$ oriented. Certainly that abuse exists, but not in my dojo.
For clarification, here is how we work the children's ranks.
For children under age 9, we have instituted a 20 kyu system of ranks, involving various colors - with intermediary stripes in between belt changes. One belt color change is roughly equivalent to one kyu promotion - but the stripes in between are positive reinforcement and smaller goals to meet for smaller people. Incidentally - we do not test for ANY of these younger child (under 9) ranks - there is no fee - and when they are awarded a belt - the parents pay for the cost of the belt - that's it. No certificates, no tests, no fees. When they deserve the promotion, it is given at the end of the class. Sometimes we ask them to do one more individual kata before we bow out as a kind of final evaluation before we award the rank.
Once a child reaches age 9 (or sometimes earlier if they have been studying for some years and show enough focus to make it through an adult 2 hour class) they join the "adult" class - or the general workout. They keep whatever rank they have earned up to the time they are ready to test for green belt. They must demonstrate the same skills and focus as an adult green belt. Same for brown belt.
After age 11, a truly exceptional child can become eligible to test for junior blackbelt. After 2 years, with continued dedicated study and progress, they can test for junior nidan. BUT upon reaching the age of 16, they can shed the "junior" status ONLY by testing for an adult Shodan - they do NOT progress to the next "adult" rank. That is the reason for the "junior." Both jr. shodan and jr. nidan are a step above brown belt. It is NOT a full-fledged dan rank - only a way of recognizing the most dedicated and hardworking children who are truly working the "way" of karate. Understandably they are few and far between.
So far we have only had two such children test for and earn junior shodan. One moved away - and the other still studies.
I would be first in line to protest these kinds of ranks in my dojo if they were 1) fee based 2) treated like adult ranks once the child is old enough or 3) abused in other ways. I'm sure it happens in other dojo - or other styles - a lot depends upon who's in charge and what their goals are. We are struggling to stay as traditional as possible, yet have made some allowances for our western culture to provide goals that are more attainable for the younger members of our dojo family.
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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 04-01-99).]
My definition of "black belt" contains qualities that are impossible to attain at such a tender age. Sixteen is a bit young for many of those qualities as well - all though there are exceptions. I do however accept a "junior black belt" rank for those children who have spent many years of dedicated practice in the martial arts. It is discouraging for them to work out seriously for 8 years or so and see adults start brand-new off the street and make a shodan rank while the youngster is still a kyu.
As long as the student is learning something - the rank shouldn't matter right? What about the above example? I currently have a nine year old student who does such a sharp seisan he puts many adult brown belts to shame. (I believe that Mattson Sensei might agree with me - this child was in his seminar) This kid has been seriously working out for almost 5 years now, (3x/week +) and HAS seen adults start studying after he has already been there, and move through the ranks to shodan - yet he understands that age is a factor with more senior rank - and has never once complained about being a green belt for so long. After he reaches the age of 11 however, I will test him for a jr. shodan rank if he continues working out as hard and keeps progressing as well as he is currently.
Our dojo has only recently added the rank of "junior blackbelt" with the approval of our Sensei's sensei - a senior-senior who is very well respected within multiple "factions" of the uechi-ryu extended family. He has a very successful dojo, teaches outside of his dojo as well, and has run many successful children's programs. He is in constant demand to teach not only in the United States, but also overseas. I believe that his institution of the jr. dan ranks is more child-oriented than $$$ oriented. Certainly that abuse exists, but not in my dojo.
For clarification, here is how we work the children's ranks.
For children under age 9, we have instituted a 20 kyu system of ranks, involving various colors - with intermediary stripes in between belt changes. One belt color change is roughly equivalent to one kyu promotion - but the stripes in between are positive reinforcement and smaller goals to meet for smaller people. Incidentally - we do not test for ANY of these younger child (under 9) ranks - there is no fee - and when they are awarded a belt - the parents pay for the cost of the belt - that's it. No certificates, no tests, no fees. When they deserve the promotion, it is given at the end of the class. Sometimes we ask them to do one more individual kata before we bow out as a kind of final evaluation before we award the rank.
Once a child reaches age 9 (or sometimes earlier if they have been studying for some years and show enough focus to make it through an adult 2 hour class) they join the "adult" class - or the general workout. They keep whatever rank they have earned up to the time they are ready to test for green belt. They must demonstrate the same skills and focus as an adult green belt. Same for brown belt.
After age 11, a truly exceptional child can become eligible to test for junior blackbelt. After 2 years, with continued dedicated study and progress, they can test for junior nidan. BUT upon reaching the age of 16, they can shed the "junior" status ONLY by testing for an adult Shodan - they do NOT progress to the next "adult" rank. That is the reason for the "junior." Both jr. shodan and jr. nidan are a step above brown belt. It is NOT a full-fledged dan rank - only a way of recognizing the most dedicated and hardworking children who are truly working the "way" of karate. Understandably they are few and far between.
So far we have only had two such children test for and earn junior shodan. One moved away - and the other still studies.
I would be first in line to protest these kinds of ranks in my dojo if they were 1) fee based 2) treated like adult ranks once the child is old enough or 3) abused in other ways. I'm sure it happens in other dojo - or other styles - a lot depends upon who's in charge and what their goals are. We are struggling to stay as traditional as possible, yet have made some allowances for our western culture to provide goals that are more attainable for the younger members of our dojo family.
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Peace,
Lori
email: <A HREF="mailto:lori_san@hotmail.com">lori_san@hotmail.com</A>
website: www.mindspring.com/~uechi-ryu
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 04-01-99).]
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
Kids and Black Belts
I agree with Allen and Lori on this.
I suppose you could give junior ranks shodan thru whatever dan, then retest at Shodan, or even just award (shudder-I know this will upset some) a regular Shodan on his or her Birthday, and then take it from there?
However, if a school awards a Junior Shodan Rank, then the student by some michance fails his adult test---I imagine there would be some heated words exchanged.
As a matter of politics and personal experience, I don't like having people "retest" for rank unless actually coming in from "another" system.
I think it would be unwise in the long run to get much above Shodan on the Junior end.
We've got enough problems without inventing more.
JOHN T
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I suppose you could give junior ranks shodan thru whatever dan, then retest at Shodan, or even just award (shudder-I know this will upset some) a regular Shodan on his or her Birthday, and then take it from there?
However, if a school awards a Junior Shodan Rank, then the student by some michance fails his adult test---I imagine there would be some heated words exchanged.
As a matter of politics and personal experience, I don't like having people "retest" for rank unless actually coming in from "another" system.
I think it would be unwise in the long run to get much above Shodan on the Junior end.
We've got enough problems without inventing more.
JOHN T
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gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Kids and Black Belts
I received permission from Matt to reprint this post from the Cyber Dojo. I believe Matt presents another point of view on the subject of jr. black belts that is worthy of discussion. gem
From: "Matt Jaggars" <jaggars@bscn.com>
Subject: Re: Super Kid 2nd degree
I knew if I posted the post artical I'd get some results.
regarding two sad peices of information. The boy started when he was three (3) and achieved his first degree when he was 5 and second when he was 7.
Now with all that has been said, what will it take to give this kid a wake up call? Or does it matter?
I say it doesn't matter...different people train for different reasons...if the kids instructor had a system set up allowing a 3 yr old kid to make black belt by the time he was 5...then what the hells the problem?
Obviously it's not a traditional martial art emphasizing self defense and combat...I would say that it's probably set up as a series of goals for the young students to set and accomplish...I would agree that it's not the
"correct" or "ideal" way of doing things ...but then again, who am I to say?
It's not correct by my standards, or by a kazillion other traditional martial artists standards...but everyone has their own standards..and you know what???? It has absolutely nothing to do with me or my training....or anyone elses training except for that kid....He'll realize one day that what he has been taught isn't real...if he hasn't already...but watch this kid when he hits his teens...he'll probably be a killer sports competitor...might even make it in the movies......then we can all sit back in our blue collar lives and watch this kid in the movies makin' millions....and talk about how his martial arts training was no good....
My point being...as I stated in another post...we all have our own truths and our own paths....and it is no ones business to say that anyone is doing anything wrong ....different strokes for different folks ....we should just follow our own truth and our own path...and leave everyone else
alone...things would be so much simpler then wouldn't they? Seems to me that they would.
Just my thoughts...
MJ
From: "Matt Jaggars" <jaggars@bscn.com>
Subject: Re: Super Kid 2nd degree
I knew if I posted the post artical I'd get some results.
regarding two sad peices of information. The boy started when he was three (3) and achieved his first degree when he was 5 and second when he was 7.
Now with all that has been said, what will it take to give this kid a wake up call? Or does it matter?
I say it doesn't matter...different people train for different reasons...if the kids instructor had a system set up allowing a 3 yr old kid to make black belt by the time he was 5...then what the hells the problem?
Obviously it's not a traditional martial art emphasizing self defense and combat...I would say that it's probably set up as a series of goals for the young students to set and accomplish...I would agree that it's not the
"correct" or "ideal" way of doing things ...but then again, who am I to say?
It's not correct by my standards, or by a kazillion other traditional martial artists standards...but everyone has their own standards..and you know what???? It has absolutely nothing to do with me or my training....or anyone elses training except for that kid....He'll realize one day that what he has been taught isn't real...if he hasn't already...but watch this kid when he hits his teens...he'll probably be a killer sports competitor...might even make it in the movies......then we can all sit back in our blue collar lives and watch this kid in the movies makin' millions....and talk about how his martial arts training was no good....
My point being...as I stated in another post...we all have our own truths and our own paths....and it is no ones business to say that anyone is doing anything wrong ....different strokes for different folks ....we should just follow our own truth and our own path...and leave everyone else
alone...things would be so much simpler then wouldn't they? Seems to me that they would.
Just my thoughts...
MJ
