I really don't think the style is drifting, rather some in the style are. What is popular today will not be popular at some point in the future, and some of the things that have fallen into the forgetful void are becoming in vogue. One big circle with no escape. Just pick a point on it and spin yourself around.
From the older group, Van does his differently than George, they are different from Arthur R., and they are different from Bobby C., etc. From a newer group, T. Rose does his different from B. Bethoney, and different the Canadians whom, according to what I hear on the grapevine, demonstrate the toughness of of Kodiac bears in their kata.
Which one is tradition even they are all unique and have their own ideas about what's the ultimate Uechi? ALL OF THEM follow and teach tradition.
Honest to God, man, sometimes what I read makes me think Uechi is going in the direction of a chicken running around the barnyard with it's head chopped off.
Too many worry about, and quibble over, things which aren't important. Just pick one master to go with, practice to your heart's content, don't even worry about the shade of green of the other's lawn, and when all the groups get together for a regional, as we do in New England, have fun learning from each other without cutting-down what the other does and how he does it. THAT'S the kind of tradition model that would be good to establish and help Uechi flourish well into the 21st century, and yet is tough to to establish.
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Where do we go from here?
Moderator: Available
-
lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
Where do we go from here?
Sorry Tony,
but I think your problem may be severe caffene overload.
Lori M-D
but I think your problem may be severe caffene overload.
Lori M-D
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Where do we go from here?
Tony: I'm sure your last post was written with a smile, but you do make an interesting point.
If you perform your techniques as powerfully as Van teaches, you MUST NOT strain and hold your breath! You will hurt yourself.
There are different ways to perform Uechi-ryu. All tap power from the floor, legs, belly etc., ending with a strong focus. One way to test if your breathing is "soft", is to carry on a natural conversation while performing your kata, punchs, kicks.
Yonamine Sensei, at one of the early camps made this point during a demonstration of body conditioning. While taking and giving full contact blows to various parts of his and his student's body, he talked and laughed with the group in a natural tone, showing all what softness within hardness meant.
This point gets lost in the breathing discussion. Students believe that the only way they can maintain a strong outer shell and breath is to link the quiet 'kiai' with the technique.
I perform my Uechi in more flowing manner than some. Some moves are faster than others. Some are more powerful than others. I don't worry about how I breath at this point. Even when I work out with Van and put out 150% in every movement, I breath in the same manner. . . Softly! In Van's class, this takes the form of a strong exhalation during the technique. But at no time do I "lock" my breath. If I were carrying on a conversation during a kata in Van's class, the words would simply become VERY loud during the focus of the block, punch or kick. But at no time would I be 'holding' my breath.
In many styles, the kiai is their tool to get the student to breath during a strong movement. But this method does not address how the student breathes during transitional moves or during no action. Obviously at some point, the teacher must address breathing while maintaining a ready/aware posture and while waiting for the action to continue.
The regular, natural Sanchin breathing that I teach addresses total breathing. Once you enter your Sanchin fighting mode, your shoulders go down, your breathing begins in a regular, rythmatic manner. You don't think about breathing anymore than you think about pulling your shoulders down.
------------------
GEM
[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited July 02, 2000).]
If you perform your techniques as powerfully as Van teaches, you MUST NOT strain and hold your breath! You will hurt yourself.
There are different ways to perform Uechi-ryu. All tap power from the floor, legs, belly etc., ending with a strong focus. One way to test if your breathing is "soft", is to carry on a natural conversation while performing your kata, punchs, kicks.
Yonamine Sensei, at one of the early camps made this point during a demonstration of body conditioning. While taking and giving full contact blows to various parts of his and his student's body, he talked and laughed with the group in a natural tone, showing all what softness within hardness meant.
This point gets lost in the breathing discussion. Students believe that the only way they can maintain a strong outer shell and breath is to link the quiet 'kiai' with the technique.
I perform my Uechi in more flowing manner than some. Some moves are faster than others. Some are more powerful than others. I don't worry about how I breath at this point. Even when I work out with Van and put out 150% in every movement, I breath in the same manner. . . Softly! In Van's class, this takes the form of a strong exhalation during the technique. But at no time do I "lock" my breath. If I were carrying on a conversation during a kata in Van's class, the words would simply become VERY loud during the focus of the block, punch or kick. But at no time would I be 'holding' my breath.
In many styles, the kiai is their tool to get the student to breath during a strong movement. But this method does not address how the student breathes during transitional moves or during no action. Obviously at some point, the teacher must address breathing while maintaining a ready/aware posture and while waiting for the action to continue.
The regular, natural Sanchin breathing that I teach addresses total breathing. Once you enter your Sanchin fighting mode, your shoulders go down, your breathing begins in a regular, rythmatic manner. You don't think about breathing anymore than you think about pulling your shoulders down.
------------------
GEM
[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited July 02, 2000).]
Where do we go from here?
The “tsst” is an unnatural breathing pattern that for the most part impedes depth of breathing and wreaks havoc with the need of the blood to be totally oxygenated to fuel up those demanding muscles locked in survival mode.
Bill Glasheen is correct in saying that your breath should be held in quick combinations and that for the rest you should breathe normally and as needed by your own body makeup.
Look at what happens to candidates under stress in a Dan test. They seem to suffer from oxygen depletion that clouds their brains and performance. They look like upright cadavers!
It cannot be argued that for the most part the “tsst” method seems to encourage shallow rapid breaths, be honest with yourselves and have someone watch you while you do it.
The freer method of breathing without having to worry about “ increasing your power in the strike, making you stronger etc.” forces your lungs to expand to their full capacity, bringing more oxygen for the system, expanding the length of the inhale, as opposed to the short intake after the “tsst”, which, in turn slows down the respiration rate, which in turn will prevent the dreaded hyperventilation, a stress response which diminishes discriminative and perceptual abilities.
Don’t ever let anyone control the way you should breathe, I don’t care if they are tenth Dans.
Pick your teacher, and test boards carefully, make sure they are well educated in all aspects of motor skills and not just blind followers of dogma [An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true ]
------------------
Van Canna
Bill Glasheen is correct in saying that your breath should be held in quick combinations and that for the rest you should breathe normally and as needed by your own body makeup.
Look at what happens to candidates under stress in a Dan test. They seem to suffer from oxygen depletion that clouds their brains and performance. They look like upright cadavers!
It cannot be argued that for the most part the “tsst” method seems to encourage shallow rapid breaths, be honest with yourselves and have someone watch you while you do it.
The freer method of breathing without having to worry about “ increasing your power in the strike, making you stronger etc.” forces your lungs to expand to their full capacity, bringing more oxygen for the system, expanding the length of the inhale, as opposed to the short intake after the “tsst”, which, in turn slows down the respiration rate, which in turn will prevent the dreaded hyperventilation, a stress response which diminishes discriminative and perceptual abilities.
Don’t ever let anyone control the way you should breathe, I don’t care if they are tenth Dans.
Pick your teacher, and test boards carefully, make sure they are well educated in all aspects of motor skills and not just blind followers of dogma [An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true ]
------------------
Van Canna
-
Allen M.
Where do we go from here?
Chi Gland? That's a good one Tony.
Only when I did my kata as you did yours on my right side was I able to get a glimpse of your "150" and even though you were having a good time smiling and all that I knew you were putting out. You have a way of doing kata, George, that it looks like you are putting out only 20% even though I know you are working it. I've got to stand behind you in class sometime and learn how to do it (Wed. eve. Huts are coming as soon as I can reschedule My own for a later hour).
Not to get off the subject, George, but did they name "The Silky Way" in Chinatown after you?
Only when I did my kata as you did yours on my right side was I able to get a glimpse of your "150" and even though you were having a good time smiling and all that I knew you were putting out. You have a way of doing kata, George, that it looks like you are putting out only 20% even though I know you are working it. I've got to stand behind you in class sometime and learn how to do it (Wed. eve. Huts are coming as soon as I can reschedule My own for a later hour).
Not to get off the subject, George, but did they name "The Silky Way" in Chinatown after you?
-
Allen M.
Where do we go from here?
Van,
I also have a tough time with the "tsst" method! It seems to put an abnormally extra large amout of pressure in my ears and just below them. It's not the tsst part, but the stopping of the breathing at the end of the tsst. While the terminating end of the tsst causes pressure in the head, the "good effect" part of that moment in time is the abdominals do get tight.
Now, with your breathing, Van, I can feel my chest sink down into my abdominals as my chest tightens while my hips rise and abdominals rise also, trying to touch the floating ribs, not instantly, but I visualize your breathing cycle to pushing and pulling on an automotive shock absorber.
I also have a tough time with the "tsst" method! It seems to put an abnormally extra large amout of pressure in my ears and just below them. It's not the tsst part, but the stopping of the breathing at the end of the tsst. While the terminating end of the tsst causes pressure in the head, the "good effect" part of that moment in time is the abdominals do get tight.
Now, with your breathing, Van, I can feel my chest sink down into my abdominals as my chest tightens while my hips rise and abdominals rise also, trying to touch the floating ribs, not instantly, but I visualize your breathing cycle to pushing and pulling on an automotive shock absorber.
Where do we go from here?
<blockquote>Yonamine Sensei, at one of the early camps made this point during a demonstration of body conditioning. While taking and giving full contact blows to various parts of his and his student's body, he talked and laughed with the group in a natural tone, showing all what softness within hardness meant. </blockquote>
This is no disrespect to Yonamine sensei as I am sure he can do that even in the grip of the chemical cocktail, but for us lesser mortals, the question remains whether WE _ could hold together under the wired autonomic responses that does a job on our breathing when hit by the “dump”!
IMO, it is best to err on the side of freer, more natural breathing patterns, without having to even think of breathing mechanics [breathe as you thrust, breathe after, hold your breath, do it through your nose, mouth etc.]!
In other words, do not have concerns about separating movements from the breathing, just breathe naturally, sometimes with the movement, sometimes not, sometimes with the “Tsst” if you like, sometimes not, sometimes with the kiai, sometimes not. The moment you start to work on programming breathing you are confusing your reactions instinct.
If the “Uechi breathing” were so natural, then why is it that the majority of us have a problem with it under the mild stress of a Dan test, not to say anything of what we would be reduced to in a life threatening situation on the street if the Dan test response is any indication of what’s to come.
Again the problem is that most of us martial artists [including the masters] talk from practically no street experience but strictly from dojo experience. Contrast Peyton Quinn, a veteran of many real fights:
<blockquote>[/i] People do choke up, but until they physically experience that, until they feel their knees shake, until they realize they can’t talk or breathe, it’s not real to them and therefore it’s not a real problem, yet it is the problem in the real world of self defense.[/i]</blockquote>
Here are his instructions in one of his scenario drills:
<blockquote> Your only job is to remember to BREATHE, to keep an eye on the man’s hands, and see if they disappear behind his buttocks. </blockquote>
Wonder why he is saying those things!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 02, 2000).]
This is no disrespect to Yonamine sensei as I am sure he can do that even in the grip of the chemical cocktail, but for us lesser mortals, the question remains whether WE _ could hold together under the wired autonomic responses that does a job on our breathing when hit by the “dump”!
IMO, it is best to err on the side of freer, more natural breathing patterns, without having to even think of breathing mechanics [breathe as you thrust, breathe after, hold your breath, do it through your nose, mouth etc.]!
In other words, do not have concerns about separating movements from the breathing, just breathe naturally, sometimes with the movement, sometimes not, sometimes with the “Tsst” if you like, sometimes not, sometimes with the kiai, sometimes not. The moment you start to work on programming breathing you are confusing your reactions instinct.
If the “Uechi breathing” were so natural, then why is it that the majority of us have a problem with it under the mild stress of a Dan test, not to say anything of what we would be reduced to in a life threatening situation on the street if the Dan test response is any indication of what’s to come.
Again the problem is that most of us martial artists [including the masters] talk from practically no street experience but strictly from dojo experience. Contrast Peyton Quinn, a veteran of many real fights:
<blockquote>[/i] People do choke up, but until they physically experience that, until they feel their knees shake, until they realize they can’t talk or breathe, it’s not real to them and therefore it’s not a real problem, yet it is the problem in the real world of self defense.[/i]</blockquote>
Here are his instructions in one of his scenario drills:
<blockquote> Your only job is to remember to BREATHE, to keep an eye on the man’s hands, and see if they disappear behind his buttocks. </blockquote>
Wonder why he is saying those things!
------------------
Van Canna
[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 02, 2000).]
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Where do we go from here?
"What is the most natural thing to do? If you exhale during the entire triple punch...it doesn't make sense. If you exhale with each punch in the sequence...you'll be there all day. The easiest way to throw three techniques in a row with optimal power and speed is to throw them while waiting until you are done to take a breath. And if you do it fast enough, it's no big deal finding the time to breathe"
Open mouth, insert foot, swallow:
I've been working boxing techniques and combinations for the past eight years, and have worked with a couple of other styles and systems that teach some "flurry" type attacks/tools/techniques/whatever.
I still exhale with my shots. That's not to say that I completely empty my lungs with the first jab, but there is a brief exhalation. I learned a similar method went my Sifu started teaching me some of our more advanced forms. A short, violent exhalation that accompanied each strike.
Because the exhalations are short, not long, you can throw a very quick flurry without winding yourself (any more than you might normally punching).
For me, I find that trying to throw techniques while 'waiting to breathe' leaves me exhausted. It's much more natural for me to exhale as my strikes go out.
Maybe that's just me. I don't know.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Open mouth, insert foot, swallow:
I've been working boxing techniques and combinations for the past eight years, and have worked with a couple of other styles and systems that teach some "flurry" type attacks/tools/techniques/whatever.
I still exhale with my shots. That's not to say that I completely empty my lungs with the first jab, but there is a brief exhalation. I learned a similar method went my Sifu started teaching me some of our more advanced forms. A short, violent exhalation that accompanied each strike.
Because the exhalations are short, not long, you can throw a very quick flurry without winding yourself (any more than you might normally punching).
For me, I find that trying to throw techniques while 'waiting to breathe' leaves me exhausted. It's much more natural for me to exhale as my strikes go out.
Maybe that's just me. I don't know.
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
Where do we go from here?
Please, this is not meant to be an argument with anyone's methods. I'm certainly not an accomplished martial artist, nor an authority on any style. Just expression.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm totally off track in my perception of what I'm doing.
I spent long enough in a Uechi dojo to learn sanchin and kanshiwa. I found a teacher of other stuff who offered private lessons, so I've been doing that for a couple years. Many people have seen or done the pinans, bassai and naihanchi, thats some of what I've been learning. Along with doing these, I've done Uechi sanchin 3 times a day.
Sanchin is constantly informing and teaching me in how to get the most out of these other katas. It's kind of a daily baseline that keeps me grounded and mindful of the possibilies in different movements.
When I started doing sanchin, I used to get winded and lightheaded. I still do sometimes, to a lesser degree, but this wierd exercise seems to have it's own built in sensei, that tells me things from time to time.
When I look at why I'm running out of breath, sanchin tells me to find power and speed from something other than tenseness and unnecessary exertion. It's like it forces me to refine every aspect of mobility and power every day.
The day that I can move in sanchin like I'm dancing, and strike with the same power as with a lunge and kiai, I'll stop doing it. I don't think that day will ever come, because the better I get at sanchin, so will my natural instinctive movements and full commitment strikes become more so.
Anyway, when I do other katas that aren't even in the same style, my body keeps finding sanchin, and my breathing just seems to happen whenever it needs to. A strong kiai is just icing on the cake, if I want to indulge myself.
My practice of sanchin doesn't in any way limit my everyday use of my lungs, any more than any kata limits my options for movement.
In a situation of extreme terror and pure adrenaline, I can't imagine thinking of anything much, except maybe ending the threat, by whatever means is necessary, or possible.
------------------
sean
Sometimes I wonder if I'm totally off track in my perception of what I'm doing.
I spent long enough in a Uechi dojo to learn sanchin and kanshiwa. I found a teacher of other stuff who offered private lessons, so I've been doing that for a couple years. Many people have seen or done the pinans, bassai and naihanchi, thats some of what I've been learning. Along with doing these, I've done Uechi sanchin 3 times a day.
Sanchin is constantly informing and teaching me in how to get the most out of these other katas. It's kind of a daily baseline that keeps me grounded and mindful of the possibilies in different movements.
When I started doing sanchin, I used to get winded and lightheaded. I still do sometimes, to a lesser degree, but this wierd exercise seems to have it's own built in sensei, that tells me things from time to time.
When I look at why I'm running out of breath, sanchin tells me to find power and speed from something other than tenseness and unnecessary exertion. It's like it forces me to refine every aspect of mobility and power every day.
The day that I can move in sanchin like I'm dancing, and strike with the same power as with a lunge and kiai, I'll stop doing it. I don't think that day will ever come, because the better I get at sanchin, so will my natural instinctive movements and full commitment strikes become more so.
Anyway, when I do other katas that aren't even in the same style, my body keeps finding sanchin, and my breathing just seems to happen whenever it needs to. A strong kiai is just icing on the cake, if I want to indulge myself.
My practice of sanchin doesn't in any way limit my everyday use of my lungs, any more than any kata limits my options for movement.
In a situation of extreme terror and pure adrenaline, I can't imagine thinking of anything much, except maybe ending the threat, by whatever means is necessary, or possible.
------------------
sean
Where do we go from here?
Bill,the difference in Uechi sanchin and Goju breathing is so great,someone has to be right.
Where do we go from here?
T Moore,
I do Uechi and Goju style sanchin (without the dynamic tension). I feel that they both accomplish the same end, in different ways. Come to think of it, I wonder if all the exercises in "karate" aren't meant to teach the practitioner about bodily integrity combined with pure intent? A stripping away of "societal conditioning" and ego perhaps?
I do Uechi and Goju style sanchin (without the dynamic tension). I feel that they both accomplish the same end, in different ways. Come to think of it, I wonder if all the exercises in "karate" aren't meant to teach the practitioner about bodily integrity combined with pure intent? A stripping away of "societal conditioning" and ego perhaps?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
Jake
I boxed too. I never felt a need to put these multi-fired exhales together. I just threw the punches and took a breath when I needed one.
To All
I wonder if some who complain about the "traditional Uechi" way of breathing aren't doing it correctly. For the life of me, I can't see why folks are having such a hard time. Yes, I have seen those who have problems with this. But I have found it is more of a function of the practitioner than the practice.
First of all, the "hssst" is a pedagogical aid. You do it in class so the instructor can monitor your breathing. The real breath is no different than the same one you might make when breathing during the thrust! But you are supposed to get rid of the noise when doing kata on your own. Many people get tripped up on this breath monitor. But remember the noise is the pointing finger and not the moon.
Second, it is extremely important to remember how you are supposed to be breathing. What is Uechiryu? It is an infighting system. When you are toe-to-toe, you want to be prepared to take shots on almost any part of the body. Uechi sanchin teaches - yes - a shallow breathing method. You do not want to be taking deep breaths when you are in blasting range. In fact, you probably won't have time.
So...how do you breathe in a shallow fashion (limited tidal volume) and still remain oxygenated for the few seconds that you are toe-to-toe? Well first of all, you do not want to be breathing with your chest or shoulders. That's the whole reason for the altered breathing pattern. One is keeping the shoulders pulled down and the intercostal muscles (those between the ribs) firm during this type of breathing. One also wants to have a degree of firmness over the solar plexus so you won't get the wind knocked out of you with a body shot.
So what does that leave you for body movement? One needs to expand the trunk to take in air. Well you still have your lower abdomen. If you learn the selective muscular contractions necessary to expand only in the lower half of the abdomen, you are drawing air down into the lowest parts of the lungs. And guess what? Gravity pools the most blood down at the bottom of the lungs (West). This means that the air you bring in is going to have the highest O2 and CO2 exchange at the alveoli (the place where air meets blood) situated in the lowest lobes of the lung. It just so happens that this combat chest and upper abdomen only allows us to expand the trunk in a manner that stretches these lowest lobes the most. Pretty good engineering when you think about it.
Frankly I believe you should be breathing no differently in any other type of combat breathing. Even when you do the deep inhales in a hatha yoga routine, you are supposed to expand first at the lower abdomen, and then at the upper abdomen, and then in the chest, and then up at the shoulders. Ever watch people do the deep breathing (shinko kyu) at the end of the hojoundo in class? It's obvious most people don't know what they are doing. They just take in a breath and wave their arms.
I have a rule of thumb about martial arts techniques. I learned this while practicing aikido. If a technique is too difficult to do, 99/100 of the time you are not doing it correctly. I believe Sean expressed that sentiment above. So if I see someone turning blue while doing the "traditional" Uechi breathing at a dan test, I am not thinking 'This breathing method *****!' Rather, I'm thinking 'This person obviously never practices this except at tests,' or 'This person doesn't know how to breathe properly while maintaining the hard sanchin exterior.'
Let's think about the whole "natural" concept a bit. Do you think Uechi Kanbun walked to the local 7-ll in Fuzhou for a cup of coffee while doing sanchin circle step and making funny breath noises? Of course we think this is ridiculous. But it is no more ridiculous to think that a fighting situation is all about one way of doing things. There is the pre-amble, where one often has time to contemplate impending doom. This is a good time to "remember to breathe." Then there is the confrontation. And confrontation involves periods of time where you are far from the opponent, and times when you may end up in bad-breath range. It is only at that latter point where 75% of what the Uechi kata teach comes into practice. That's when you do not want to be taking deep breaths. That's when you want to hurt and not be hurt. That's when you should be concerned about what happens if you take a knee to the chest or stomach. And then there is the "after period." Yes...my somewhat limited but very real experience has taught me that this is when I fall apart. My knees have never shaken until things were over. I believe it is because I have taken my body out of gear (so to write) but my engine is still roaring. And it is even worse if I haven't done something during the confrontation. All those catecholamines, and nothing to hit; it'll ruin your day.
So what am I saying?
1) All methods of breathing have their use.
2) Most people need to learn how to breathe properly - no matter what method you are talking about.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 03, 2000).]
I boxed too. I never felt a need to put these multi-fired exhales together. I just threw the punches and took a breath when I needed one.
To All
I wonder if some who complain about the "traditional Uechi" way of breathing aren't doing it correctly. For the life of me, I can't see why folks are having such a hard time. Yes, I have seen those who have problems with this. But I have found it is more of a function of the practitioner than the practice.
First of all, the "hssst" is a pedagogical aid. You do it in class so the instructor can monitor your breathing. The real breath is no different than the same one you might make when breathing during the thrust! But you are supposed to get rid of the noise when doing kata on your own. Many people get tripped up on this breath monitor. But remember the noise is the pointing finger and not the moon.
Second, it is extremely important to remember how you are supposed to be breathing. What is Uechiryu? It is an infighting system. When you are toe-to-toe, you want to be prepared to take shots on almost any part of the body. Uechi sanchin teaches - yes - a shallow breathing method. You do not want to be taking deep breaths when you are in blasting range. In fact, you probably won't have time.
So...how do you breathe in a shallow fashion (limited tidal volume) and still remain oxygenated for the few seconds that you are toe-to-toe? Well first of all, you do not want to be breathing with your chest or shoulders. That's the whole reason for the altered breathing pattern. One is keeping the shoulders pulled down and the intercostal muscles (those between the ribs) firm during this type of breathing. One also wants to have a degree of firmness over the solar plexus so you won't get the wind knocked out of you with a body shot.
So what does that leave you for body movement? One needs to expand the trunk to take in air. Well you still have your lower abdomen. If you learn the selective muscular contractions necessary to expand only in the lower half of the abdomen, you are drawing air down into the lowest parts of the lungs. And guess what? Gravity pools the most blood down at the bottom of the lungs (West). This means that the air you bring in is going to have the highest O2 and CO2 exchange at the alveoli (the place where air meets blood) situated in the lowest lobes of the lung. It just so happens that this combat chest and upper abdomen only allows us to expand the trunk in a manner that stretches these lowest lobes the most. Pretty good engineering when you think about it.
Frankly I believe you should be breathing no differently in any other type of combat breathing. Even when you do the deep inhales in a hatha yoga routine, you are supposed to expand first at the lower abdomen, and then at the upper abdomen, and then in the chest, and then up at the shoulders. Ever watch people do the deep breathing (shinko kyu) at the end of the hojoundo in class? It's obvious most people don't know what they are doing. They just take in a breath and wave their arms.
I have a rule of thumb about martial arts techniques. I learned this while practicing aikido. If a technique is too difficult to do, 99/100 of the time you are not doing it correctly. I believe Sean expressed that sentiment above. So if I see someone turning blue while doing the "traditional" Uechi breathing at a dan test, I am not thinking 'This breathing method *****!' Rather, I'm thinking 'This person obviously never practices this except at tests,' or 'This person doesn't know how to breathe properly while maintaining the hard sanchin exterior.'
Let's think about the whole "natural" concept a bit. Do you think Uechi Kanbun walked to the local 7-ll in Fuzhou for a cup of coffee while doing sanchin circle step and making funny breath noises? Of course we think this is ridiculous. But it is no more ridiculous to think that a fighting situation is all about one way of doing things. There is the pre-amble, where one often has time to contemplate impending doom. This is a good time to "remember to breathe." Then there is the confrontation. And confrontation involves periods of time where you are far from the opponent, and times when you may end up in bad-breath range. It is only at that latter point where 75% of what the Uechi kata teach comes into practice. That's when you do not want to be taking deep breaths. That's when you want to hurt and not be hurt. That's when you should be concerned about what happens if you take a knee to the chest or stomach. And then there is the "after period." Yes...my somewhat limited but very real experience has taught me that this is when I fall apart. My knees have never shaken until things were over. I believe it is because I have taken my body out of gear (so to write) but my engine is still roaring. And it is even worse if I haven't done something during the confrontation. All those catecholamines, and nothing to hit; it'll ruin your day.
So what am I saying?
1) All methods of breathing have their use.
2) Most people need to learn how to breathe properly - no matter what method you are talking about.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 03, 2000).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
TMoore wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
Think about it this way... Which is the better tool, the hammer or the saw?Bill,the difference in Uechi sanchin and Goju breathing is so great,someone has to be right.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
TMoore
I'm not trying to be flip. I actually steal elements of the Goju sanchin for my own class warmups. I don't actually teach or do the Goju sanchin as there are a few minor differences (mostly in the circle block and thrust) that'll screw up most beginners.
As part of a regular warmup for my class, I have them do "karate punches" with dynamic tension and ibuki (dragon) breathing while in a deep, anatomically correct horse stance (kiba dachi). The restricted inhale is done between the slow punches, and the restricted exhale is done during the punches. I then have them get into a heiko dachi (stance just before sanchin dachi in sanchin kata) and have them do dynamic tension waukes and double boshiken thrusts while doing the same dragon breathing. This time I have them do the restricted inhale with the block, and the restricted exhale with the thrusts.
THEN the students are ready to do a Uechi sanchin.
Doing exercises like these to warm a class up will make you appreciate what Miyagi Chojun was trying to accomplish with his Goju version of sanchin.
- Bill
I'm not trying to be flip. I actually steal elements of the Goju sanchin for my own class warmups. I don't actually teach or do the Goju sanchin as there are a few minor differences (mostly in the circle block and thrust) that'll screw up most beginners.
As part of a regular warmup for my class, I have them do "karate punches" with dynamic tension and ibuki (dragon) breathing while in a deep, anatomically correct horse stance (kiba dachi). The restricted inhale is done between the slow punches, and the restricted exhale is done during the punches. I then have them get into a heiko dachi (stance just before sanchin dachi in sanchin kata) and have them do dynamic tension waukes and double boshiken thrusts while doing the same dragon breathing. This time I have them do the restricted inhale with the block, and the restricted exhale with the thrusts.
THEN the students are ready to do a Uechi sanchin.
Doing exercises like these to warm a class up will make you appreciate what Miyagi Chojun was trying to accomplish with his Goju version of sanchin.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Where do we go from here?
Mary S. is home today. It seems that up in Nova Scotia, there are limited places where they have proper network facilities. You know how those N.S. people are - they're too busy knocking off Grizzly Bears with their Uechi to worry about indoor plumbing and electricity, much less high-speed internet connections. So, I'll post some of what she was writing on this subject. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The problem I was having was with the "TTT" on the
"hssssttt"....I tend not to close it off...and refer to it as a "rolling"
breath....one that never stops. It's a throw back from singing lessons
when I was younger...using the diaphram to breathe and control the
breath...being able to sustain a note for an incredibly long time not from
the breath but from controlling the muscle...and still be relaxed...never
being full never being empty....not making the breath "airy" but not
forced either...
<snip>
I don't know if it's "right" but it seems to work for me....rarely do I
get winded, I maintain my "hard" exterior, and I am not straining against
myself to get oxygen. I can remember one night long ago at the dojo when
I was sankyu and showed up for a white belt class where the sempai (Debb)
and I sparred with everyone in the class .... I think I ended up sparring
with at least 12 people in two minute rounds (some with experience some
without)....it was a blast and I could have gone on a lot longer that
night, even as a smoker back then... :-)
It's funny how we are "taught" how to kick properly and punch properly and
find our stance but the breathing aspect seems to end up as a "you'll
figure it out". Even GEM doesn't cover it well in his red book....
Conservation of breath without "holding" it in...complicated!!! :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> While reading these e-mails, it occured to me why I had so little difficulty learning to breathe properly in sanchin. Way back in the dark ages when I was in parochial school, I was a star member of the boys choir (believe it or not). Actually, we adults with the low voices often sang like canaries as kids. Anyhow...I had a singing coach named Mrs. Breeze. She was a retired professional opera singer, and had that classic Norwegian build. She spent many classes with us boys working on breathing and singing from the lower abdomen.
I have often taught in classes that there's a lot of similarity between the way you are taught to sing and breathe in opera and the way you should breathe in sanchin. Those opera singers don't belt those notes out without a microphone with any "dead fish" abdominal movements.
- Bill
"hssssttt"....I tend not to close it off...and refer to it as a "rolling"
breath....one that never stops. It's a throw back from singing lessons
when I was younger...using the diaphram to breathe and control the
breath...being able to sustain a note for an incredibly long time not from
the breath but from controlling the muscle...and still be relaxed...never
being full never being empty....not making the breath "airy" but not
forced either...
<snip>
I don't know if it's "right" but it seems to work for me....rarely do I
get winded, I maintain my "hard" exterior, and I am not straining against
myself to get oxygen. I can remember one night long ago at the dojo when
I was sankyu and showed up for a white belt class where the sempai (Debb)
and I sparred with everyone in the class .... I think I ended up sparring
with at least 12 people in two minute rounds (some with experience some
without)....it was a blast and I could have gone on a lot longer that
night, even as a smoker back then... :-)
It's funny how we are "taught" how to kick properly and punch properly and
find our stance but the breathing aspect seems to end up as a "you'll
figure it out". Even GEM doesn't cover it well in his red book....
Conservation of breath without "holding" it in...complicated!!! :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> While reading these e-mails, it occured to me why I had so little difficulty learning to breathe properly in sanchin. Way back in the dark ages when I was in parochial school, I was a star member of the boys choir (believe it or not). Actually, we adults with the low voices often sang like canaries as kids. Anyhow...I had a singing coach named Mrs. Breeze. She was a retired professional opera singer, and had that classic Norwegian build. She spent many classes with us boys working on breathing and singing from the lower abdomen.
I have often taught in classes that there's a lot of similarity between the way you are taught to sing and breathe in opera and the way you should breathe in sanchin. Those opera singers don't belt those notes out without a microphone with any "dead fish" abdominal movements.
- Bill
