Len
Ahhh...now we are truly getting into mushin. I see this developing a dimension of the sanchin stance that we have not really fully explored, but that we both touched on briefly above. It sounds extremely useful.
For the most part we have indeed talked about testing for "perturbations" to our sanchin system that are known. After the first hit on the stomach, you know to tense the stomach. You even see the person winding up on the first one. And often with the finger flick (assuming we are dealing with someone like you who knows what he is doing and why he is doing it), one sees the hand poised for snap before it happens. This causes a brief focusing of activity on that one area. But what of the rest of the body? And what of the development of sensitivity to everything? That's where it gets very interesting.
This touches on what you were talking about in reference to combinations that start with attacks to the face. I also touched on this briefly when I talked about the soft tests that involved changing the direction that you are nudging the body. What we want to develop is the ability to be sensitive to whatever may come, and to react as efficiently as possible.
The kyusho folks are all about targeted sequential striking. The chi-sters will explain how things work based on 5-element theory, yin vs. yang, cycle of destruction, etc, etc. Unfortunately the complexity of the underlying theory is - in my opinion - far from a parsimonious view of how things work. There is also a debate about whether or not such "things" like chi exist as the TCM folks view it. On the other extreme you have the hard western scientists who are looking for a similar underlying theory as to why things work. For the most part, I believe there is no single collective theory. Different sequences work by unique mechanisms.
To be honest, some of the demos are pure show. Only a fraction of what is going on out there is real. But there is something to the practice, if not the theory of kyusho.
But the issue of sequential striking is the real fun stuff. Why is it that striking here and then there works? Jim Thompson does some pretty neat demos that show this on a very fundamental level. It goes over the head of most people; if you empty your mind and just look, it makes a lot of sense.
What Jim does is have a student stick his arm out and try to hold it there. Jim will pull down with a fixed amount of pressure (difficult to do, but we humor him...) and show how difficult it is to get the arm to go down. Then he will do various "things". He always tells people that he is doing "tricks" or "magic", and then gives a kind of leprechaun grin. In one case he'll punch on another area of the body. He pulls down on the arm, and it comes down easily. He'll step on the foot. He pulls down on the arm, and it comes down easily. The real clincher is when he waves his hand (full of chi of course) across the person's belly. He pulls down on the arm, and it comes down easily.
What the heck is Jim doing??
I know Len knows right away. Jim explains that a person has his mind focused on the arm when first pulling down. When he does something to another area of the body, the mental focus goes there. Without the concentration on that one point, the arm goes down more easily. Even the process of waving the hand over the belly distracts the person's mind just enough to change the ability of the person to hold the arm up.
Jim is showing one reason why sequential strikes work. There are other reasons, but this one is important. Most people do not have perfect mushin. In mushin we focus on nothing and are aware of everything. Practically speaking, most folks are distracted by various things going on around them, and they lose the general mental awareness. Most of us are never in perfect mushin. Jim shows how to take advantage of these human qualities or limitations.
Now what Len does in his exercise by blindfolding the individual is that he takes away the ability to focus on a spot where you know the attack is coming. Everyone can tense the stomach to take a hit, but can you be generally prepared to handle an unknown perturbation instantaneously? You won't be able to do so anywhere near as well. But your best bet would be to get as close to mushin as you can so you are able to respond the best way you can to whatever may come.
I like it, Len!
I think the test I talked about where you grab onto the person's waist and keep changing the direction of the tug is one way to get at this. One is still focused on the general stomach area, but one cannot know exactly which direction the force will go. The best bet is to not presume and increase the sensitivity. It's another way.
I have a little exercise I do that the kids like that is similar to yours. You didn't mention whether or not the kids were moving in your exercise. Ideally they will be. Another separate issue is whether or not they can maintain control of center and balance while stepping rather than strictly in a stationary position. While the test I mentioned above doesn't do that, yours might if the students move. One I'm going to mention is another way to get at it.
I have the students do something that is a cross between two activities we do - blind man sparring and the barroom brawl. I get a half dozen to a dozen folks loose in the room with their eyes closed. They are to search and destroy. Destroying means doing a palm strike to the body area. I make sure I get folks who have the same relative height so that Mongo doesn’t hit Junior in the face (or Mongo isn't flattened by a groin shot). Students then listen and move. Sound helps in finding a victim, but you never really know where the next attack is coming from. The typical exchange happens when two people inadvertently touch each other in some way. There is a quick exchange, and usually one gets the palm shot on the body. The nice thing about it all is that the multi-partner nature of the exercise makes them all choose shallow stances (sanchin) and move extremely cat-like.
Your exercise doesn't bring in the element of attack. But what I like about your exercise, Len, is that it focuses on balance too.
Good stuff!
- Bill
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
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Bill Glasheen
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Bill Glasheen
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Ian
I think you have most of the relevant thoughts articulated.
The vision thing is something that Van and I have discussed before. Actually there is a very natural (autonomic nervous system) physiologic phenomenon that happens anyway when we get the &%$@ scared out of us:
1) Eyelids open very wide
2) Pupils dilate
Try to remember a snapshot taken of someone at a birthday party the moment everyone says "SURPRISE!!!". That's the look.
The wide opening of the eyelids helps more than you realize. When we are in normal eyelid mode, most of us have enough eyelash to partially filter out some light. You really don't think about it much, but if you experiment with looking at a light source (like your computer monitor) and go from wide-eyed to squinting, you'll see it. The lashes serve as a filter for both dust and light - particularly light from above. Even when they are in front of our lens, we can see right through them. We just see less light.
The opening of the pupil is the item Van and I discussed at large. Van quotes from his lethal defense literature, and I from physiology and photography. A shutterbug (photographer) will tell you it isn't just light. In fact that's probably the minor effect. Opening the pupil (aperature) wide also narrows the depth of field. So wherever your eye is focused, you have reduced the range (from front to back) around that focal point that is in focus. Your brain primarily processes only what is in focus. That's a pattern recognition thing...something I won't go into here. The NET effect is to react primarily to the business at hand.
I agree with you on all your other points. You brought up all the complexities involved with opening the eyes wide vs. blinking. I think you have been thoughtful about the way to approach this "test" if one were to do it. I think both you and Len understand what the end result should be, and what we want to avoid.
So...flick or no flick? And if we flick, have we discovered the best way to do it? Short of a randomized trial of training and then going up against Mongo....I think we are all guessing at this point.
- Bill
I think you have most of the relevant thoughts articulated.
The vision thing is something that Van and I have discussed before. Actually there is a very natural (autonomic nervous system) physiologic phenomenon that happens anyway when we get the &%$@ scared out of us:
1) Eyelids open very wide
2) Pupils dilate
Try to remember a snapshot taken of someone at a birthday party the moment everyone says "SURPRISE!!!". That's the look.
The wide opening of the eyelids helps more than you realize. When we are in normal eyelid mode, most of us have enough eyelash to partially filter out some light. You really don't think about it much, but if you experiment with looking at a light source (like your computer monitor) and go from wide-eyed to squinting, you'll see it. The lashes serve as a filter for both dust and light - particularly light from above. Even when they are in front of our lens, we can see right through them. We just see less light.
The opening of the pupil is the item Van and I discussed at large. Van quotes from his lethal defense literature, and I from physiology and photography. A shutterbug (photographer) will tell you it isn't just light. In fact that's probably the minor effect. Opening the pupil (aperature) wide also narrows the depth of field. So wherever your eye is focused, you have reduced the range (from front to back) around that focal point that is in focus. Your brain primarily processes only what is in focus. That's a pattern recognition thing...something I won't go into here. The NET effect is to react primarily to the business at hand.
I agree with you on all your other points. You brought up all the complexities involved with opening the eyes wide vs. blinking. I think you have been thoughtful about the way to approach this "test" if one were to do it. I think both you and Len understand what the end result should be, and what we want to avoid.
So...flick or no flick? And if we flick, have we discovered the best way to do it? Short of a randomized trial of training and then going up against Mongo....I think we are all guessing at this point.
- Bill
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
I used the blindfolded Sanchin test with my Adult students (2 stripe and above class)last night. I made them place their belts over their eyes and tested certain areas of their body while they performed the kata. They were mostly aware that the body should be focused everywhere, and they passed the "hard test" for the most part. They failed the balance test during the turns and steps where I alternately tugged and pushed them from behind. Also they were a little off balance when turning into my fixed arm punch (mainly due to the fact that they were not using their hips effectively and not keeping the knees slightly bent). The exercise was appreciated by the students and the second time we did it they were more aware of balance.
When I used the poker exercise on the blindfolded adults and kids, they were not allowed to move until they were poked, then they were to move and attack the poker until I said stop. They then stood still until they were attacked again. Only one student was moving at a time. The reason I stated that stealth was needed by me while attacking is exactly as Bill G stated in his post, they were listening for me when I was getting close to try to pick up which side the attack was comming from.
I have a thought on Ian's post:
If one is attacked from the side, the first instinct or move to the side should be from the neck as the head turns to pick up the attack. Similar to the first move in Kanshiwa Bunkai. By closing the eyes and not turning the head you may be inviting a sweep by not turning into the attack.
Have you ever been startled by a person hiding in a doorway and they jump out at you? What is your first reaction? IS IT TO BLINK AND PULL AWAY? Or will you turn in their direction and execute a wauke block?
If one is walking in the woods (and there are no attackers around) and you know a branch of a tree might snap back at you, then yes I would close my eyes.
I would not however condition my eyes to do this when there were no trees around.
When I used the poker exercise on the blindfolded adults and kids, they were not allowed to move until they were poked, then they were to move and attack the poker until I said stop. They then stood still until they were attacked again. Only one student was moving at a time. The reason I stated that stealth was needed by me while attacking is exactly as Bill G stated in his post, they were listening for me when I was getting close to try to pick up which side the attack was comming from.
I have a thought on Ian's post:
If one is attacked from the side, the first instinct or move to the side should be from the neck as the head turns to pick up the attack. Similar to the first move in Kanshiwa Bunkai. By closing the eyes and not turning the head you may be inviting a sweep by not turning into the attack.
Have you ever been startled by a person hiding in a doorway and they jump out at you? What is your first reaction? IS IT TO BLINK AND PULL AWAY? Or will you turn in their direction and execute a wauke block?
If one is walking in the woods (and there are no attackers around) and you know a branch of a tree might snap back at you, then yes I would close my eyes.
I would not however condition my eyes to do this when there were no trees around.
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
It's been awhile since folks were posting to this thread, but it was an interesting thread .
I was never a Uechi-ka, so I don't know how Sanchin and Sanchin testing is done differently from the way I've been doing it all these years... Actually, I learned and practice Sanchin two different ways. The first way is moving forward and then moving back, the second way (I was told the original way) was moving forward, turning and moving back, turning again and then completion.
The first way I was taught to use the Goju-ryu ibuki breathing... The second way, the breathing was different, softer actually.
Regardless, when we were "tested" in Sanchin, the procedure started with the feet, running fingers along them to make sure there was good contact, checking the ankles trying to pull them apart, up the calves-thighs-buttocks to check for good muscle tension (including some hearty slaps to the thighs, but it was never anything that was a "surprise" move), checking the tanden and abdomen for proper tension, up to check the lats and the shoulders for proper tension (with more hearty hits to the shoulders, again nothing that was a "surprise"), checking the head, thus far everything would have been done from the back... then the sensei/shihan would move to the front and check eye focus (we never got a finger-flick blink test), then testing the proper tension of the arms and giving resistance to the arm moves, checking the abs, tanden, and legs again... during these various test there would be a (for lack of a better term) check-kick between the legs to make sure their tension and position remained correct.
However, fundamentally, I guess my point is that even though everyone was being "tested" in their Sanchin, it was done in such a way that everyone (from shihan/sensei to beginner) felt that it was done to help the person improve and learn, not so much as a "test'. (Having said that, the "helping" was waaaay more intense during Dan testing than ever before! )
So, how is Sanchin done by Uechi-ka? Turn, no turn? forward & backward steps? How many mawashi-uke? I was also taught two different opening salutations as well... And was told that Sanchin and Tensho were the only kata where the second (older) one could be used.
Just wondering out loud.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 06, 2000).]
I was never a Uechi-ka, so I don't know how Sanchin and Sanchin testing is done differently from the way I've been doing it all these years... Actually, I learned and practice Sanchin two different ways. The first way is moving forward and then moving back, the second way (I was told the original way) was moving forward, turning and moving back, turning again and then completion.
The first way I was taught to use the Goju-ryu ibuki breathing... The second way, the breathing was different, softer actually.
Regardless, when we were "tested" in Sanchin, the procedure started with the feet, running fingers along them to make sure there was good contact, checking the ankles trying to pull them apart, up the calves-thighs-buttocks to check for good muscle tension (including some hearty slaps to the thighs, but it was never anything that was a "surprise" move), checking the tanden and abdomen for proper tension, up to check the lats and the shoulders for proper tension (with more hearty hits to the shoulders, again nothing that was a "surprise"), checking the head, thus far everything would have been done from the back... then the sensei/shihan would move to the front and check eye focus (we never got a finger-flick blink test), then testing the proper tension of the arms and giving resistance to the arm moves, checking the abs, tanden, and legs again... during these various test there would be a (for lack of a better term) check-kick between the legs to make sure their tension and position remained correct.
However, fundamentally, I guess my point is that even though everyone was being "tested" in their Sanchin, it was done in such a way that everyone (from shihan/sensei to beginner) felt that it was done to help the person improve and learn, not so much as a "test'. (Having said that, the "helping" was waaaay more intense during Dan testing than ever before!
)So, how is Sanchin done by Uechi-ka? Turn, no turn? forward & backward steps? How many mawashi-uke? I was also taught two different opening salutations as well... And was told that Sanchin and Tensho were the only kata where the second (older) one could be used.
Just wondering out loud.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 06, 2000).]
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Tested 14 years ago for shodan at Sensei Thompson dojo with Robert Galeone as my instructor.A woman,Forget her name,gave one of the hardest sanchin test we have ever seen.She surely gained the respect of all from Bob's dojo and anyone in attendance.Sanchin is the anchor.A test should not be push and shove.By the way Bill,I was at a camp in Annapolis held by Bob 14 years ago that you attened and it was great.
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
This is the kind of thread I like(and can learn from).
On the eye thing, when I test students I strike to the eyes also. What I look for is not if they blink or not, but are they surprised or rattled by the strike. You see I think it is a natural response to have the eye lids drop to try to protect the eye. Now I also believe that in the static environment of a test we can train our eyes to stay open. However if the strike is done at different times so it isn't expected, then we get to see if it disturbs the student's inner confidence.
On the body strikes, myself I kind of like a hard test, seems like it's easier to get into it. You see, sometime the soft little pushes seem to catch you by surprise and you either resist too much or not enough. This is good, we should be doing things in a variety of ways.
A test I have found to be a useful tool is to start on one side of a student and walk around them while applying constant pressure. I have found it is great for teaching them the different points of strength the stance has. Well at least I have found it taught me that, I keep tellimg them it will also work for them.
Gilbert
On the eye thing, when I test students I strike to the eyes also. What I look for is not if they blink or not, but are they surprised or rattled by the strike. You see I think it is a natural response to have the eye lids drop to try to protect the eye. Now I also believe that in the static environment of a test we can train our eyes to stay open. However if the strike is done at different times so it isn't expected, then we get to see if it disturbs the student's inner confidence.
On the body strikes, myself I kind of like a hard test, seems like it's easier to get into it. You see, sometime the soft little pushes seem to catch you by surprise and you either resist too much or not enough. This is good, we should be doing things in a variety of ways.
A test I have found to be a useful tool is to start on one side of a student and walk around them while applying constant pressure. I have found it is great for teaching them the different points of strength the stance has. Well at least I have found it taught me that, I keep tellimg them it will also work for them.
Gilbert
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Bill Glasheen
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Panther
I have done the Goju (Okinawan Shorei Kai) sanchin as you described with the ibuki breathing. I obviously work with and teach the Uechi sanchin. In both sanchins I learned, there were two 180-degree turns as you described in your second method of sanchin. The method of turning is a little different in Goju vs. Uechi. The Goju folks step across before pivoting, whereas the Uechi folk first pivot on the back leg, and then drag the other foot across when completing the turn. Otherwise the pattern of stepping and striking is similar. There is dynamic tension in the Goju thrusts, and relaxed, focused movement in the Uechi thrusts.
In the Goju sanchin, I did ONE mawashi uke at the end - straight forward. In the Uechi sanchin, there are three mawashi ukes: first stepping 90 degrees in the direction of the front foot, then 180 degrees to the other side, and finally straight forward again.
The opening in Uechi sanchin is done in other (but not all) Uechi kata.
TMoore
That was a memorable camp. I thought I'd never get out of seiza!
Gilbert
I like your idea about the eye test. It reminded me of being at the shooting range last Sunday. Twice I got errant hot shells (from someone else's gun) down my shirt. I noted how important it was to remove them without losing awareness of the fact that I had a "hot" gun in my hand. This is the exact same idea, no?
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 07, 2000).]
I have done the Goju (Okinawan Shorei Kai) sanchin as you described with the ibuki breathing. I obviously work with and teach the Uechi sanchin. In both sanchins I learned, there were two 180-degree turns as you described in your second method of sanchin. The method of turning is a little different in Goju vs. Uechi. The Goju folks step across before pivoting, whereas the Uechi folk first pivot on the back leg, and then drag the other foot across when completing the turn. Otherwise the pattern of stepping and striking is similar. There is dynamic tension in the Goju thrusts, and relaxed, focused movement in the Uechi thrusts.
In the Goju sanchin, I did ONE mawashi uke at the end - straight forward. In the Uechi sanchin, there are three mawashi ukes: first stepping 90 degrees in the direction of the front foot, then 180 degrees to the other side, and finally straight forward again.
The opening in Uechi sanchin is done in other (but not all) Uechi kata.
TMoore
That was a memorable camp. I thought I'd never get out of seiza!
Gilbert
I like your idea about the eye test. It reminded me of being at the shooting range last Sunday. Twice I got errant hot shells (from someone else's gun) down my shirt. I noted how important it was to remove them without losing awareness of the fact that I had a "hot" gun in my hand. This is the exact same idea, no?
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 07, 2000).]
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Twice I got errant hot shells (from someone else's gun) down my shirt. I noted how important it was to remove them without losing awareness of the fact that I had a "hot" gun in my hand. This is the exact same idea, no?
- Bill
Yes this is what I look for, it is important that we are aware, no matter what our natural reaction is. If our eyes blink or not we must be aware of what is going on. In a Sanchin test an instructor can tell by looking into the eyes(and not just at them) when you strike toward them, if the strike has rattled the student.
Gilbert.
Twice I got errant hot shells (from someone else's gun) down my shirt. I noted how important it was to remove them without losing awareness of the fact that I had a "hot" gun in my hand. This is the exact same idea, no?
- Bill
Yes this is what I look for, it is important that we are aware, no matter what our natural reaction is. If our eyes blink or not we must be aware of what is going on. In a Sanchin test an instructor can tell by looking into the eyes(and not just at them) when you strike toward them, if the strike has rattled the student.
Gilbert.
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Glasheen-sempai,
Thank you for the Sanchin differences explanation! That is very helpful. I was taught that the version with the two 180 degree turns was the original version as taught to Miyagi by Kanryo Higaonna and the other version was Miyagi Chojun's version as he taught it later. The number of mawashi-uke is helpful as well... in the turning version (as you noted) there is only one mawashi-uke, but in the forward/back version there are two. Interesting... I really enjoy seeing the different ways the same named kata are performed by styles with the same fundamental roots. I've been accused of blaspheme when voicing the opinion that none of them are more or less "correct" than any others just, as in music, all important variations on a theme.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 12, 2000).]
Thank you for the Sanchin differences explanation! That is very helpful. I was taught that the version with the two 180 degree turns was the original version as taught to Miyagi by Kanryo Higaonna and the other version was Miyagi Chojun's version as he taught it later. The number of mawashi-uke is helpful as well... in the turning version (as you noted) there is only one mawashi-uke, but in the forward/back version there are two. Interesting... I really enjoy seeing the different ways the same named kata are performed by styles with the same fundamental roots. I've been accused of blaspheme when voicing the opinion that none of them are more or less "correct" than any others just, as in music, all important variations on a theme.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited June 12, 2000).]
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
As long as you concede that my way is right and everyone else f***** it up, then no blaspheme is spoken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I bow to your knowledge of your previous lives!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Frankly I find it very interesting looking at all the permutations in existence for sanchin kata. When you look at the similarities and differences, it tells you even more about the form.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I resemble that remark!
As long as you concede that my way is right and everyone else f***** it up, then no blaspheme is spoken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I bow to your knowledge of your previous lives!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Good idea, Brother Chang! We'll put in an extra mawashi-uke here and change that move a little so we can always tell who learned from these rice-paper drawings and who actually came to the temple and trained!But seriously....you will find little adherence to the ususal party-line dogma here. Last I checked, nobody has 200-year-old videotapes of monks doing THE form (patent pending). And change seems to be the norm rather than the exception.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I agree that the theme is the most important piece. The actual manifestation of those principles in a specific form is a personal or stylistic choice.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Frankly I find it very interesting looking at all the permutations in existence for sanchin kata. When you look at the similarities and differences, it tells you even more about the form.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I resemble that remark!
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Bill Glasheen
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Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Panther
As long as you concede that my way is right and everyone else f***** it up, then no blaspheme is spoken.
But seriously....you will find little adherence to the ususal party-line dogma here. Last I checked, nobody has 200-year-old videotapes of monks doing THE form (patent pending). And change seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I agree that the theme is the most important piece. The actual manifestation of those principles in a specific form is a personal or stylistic choice.
Frankly I find it very interesting looking at all the permutations in existence for sanchin kata. When you look at the similarities and differences, it tells you even more about the form.
- Bill
As long as you concede that my way is right and everyone else f***** it up, then no blaspheme is spoken.
But seriously....you will find little adherence to the ususal party-line dogma here. Last I checked, nobody has 200-year-old videotapes of monks doing THE form (patent pending). And change seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I agree that the theme is the most important piece. The actual manifestation of those principles in a specific form is a personal or stylistic choice.
Frankly I find it very interesting looking at all the permutations in existence for sanchin kata. When you look at the similarities and differences, it tells you even more about the form.
- Bill
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Having read a number of threads on Sanchin "testing" and expectations in Uechi-ryu... and reading about some of the concerns, injuries, and practices...
I've reread this thread and read many of the Sanchin "testing" threads in the archives. In posting here before, I attempted to use the "testing" terminology to maintain understanding through the thread.
Glasheen-sempai was/has been kind enough to answer questions about this before, but I wanted to bring this up again and try to get a better understanding...
Mainly this is for my own selfishness, because having gone through many stages in my own physical, mental and spiritual development, one thing I won't ever do (again) is "take a beating" from anyone for any reason and just stand there... I'm trying to work through some decisions I'm contemplating and clarification of this information is crucial to that process.
In a different forum, Victor Smith posted about an article he wrote regarding Okinawa-te. In that article there was a section on Sanchin "checking", which caused me to post:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As posted by Panther:
... I have a question for Professor and the Uechi instructors, based on something in the article.
It's a "technical" question...
In the article there is a section on shime written by Morio Higaonna. The way shime is described in that section is how I was always "helped" in Sanchin. (For me, it wasn't called "testing", it wasn't done to "test", it was done for my benefit with lots of feedback, tips and pointers... we even called it "checking")
A while back in one of the forums, there was a thread on "Sanchin testing" and from reading that thread, I read a number of things that, well... just didn't "jive" for me. First off, was the rough "testing" attitude. Then there was the comments about striking (particularly the abdomen, back and back of the shoulders) using a closed fist. And finally (one of the main themes of the thread) the strikes towards the eyes.
I was always told that checking Sanchin should never be done with a closed fist and that agrees with the article. One of the reasons was the shock that could be done to the student...
Interestingly enough, I was told (just as Higaonna writes) not to ever let "just anyone" check my Sanchin. That many times someone might even know how to properly check, but would neglect to see if I was performing correctly enough on that given day... and that could be dangerous to me.
Strikes to the arms, legs, shoulders, etc. were all done with an open hand and were carefully executed in order to help me learn and improve. I would do my Sanchin strikes and the "check" was done by holding my fist and giving resistance. Legs were also meticulously checked with open hands and a few "check" kicks, but being rooted was checked by feeling around my feet and ankles to see if I was correctly "gripping" the floor. On testing my kime, there were never any "finger-flicks" or strikes towards the eyes...
From the thread on Uechi Sanchin testing, it sounds like there is quite a bit of striking with a closed fist to "test" a student in Sanchin, kicks to the thighs and calves are important without any checking of feet or ankles, and that any deviation from looking directly ahead with intense focus was a problem.
Perhaps I misunderstand or "just don't get it"... I think many of the roots are the same fundamentally from China, so any explanations on the differences are greatly appreciated. It was always stressed to me that the fist strikes and hard kicks were a definite no-no.
Just confused...
Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Professor Mattson replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As posted by Professor Mattson:
You are right Panther! The Uechi gang have gone a bit bonkers with their "testing". (As did I when I first returned to the U.S.)
I wish all our young bucks would read your article and learn how the masters used 'checking' to build confidence rather than egos.
It doesn't take much imagination to see how the process got out of control. There are dojo now that specialize in this dangerous practice and wear their blood clots as badges of honor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Before someone feeds me the line about "needing to learn to take a punch because of what happens on the street" (tm), I've been "tested on the street" and I know what it means to get hit and then some... and standing in Sanchin so someone can beat the cr@p out of you does not teach you to handle that situation... I'm just trying to get clarification and information so I can make some informed decisions.
Thanks...
I've reread this thread and read many of the Sanchin "testing" threads in the archives. In posting here before, I attempted to use the "testing" terminology to maintain understanding through the thread.
Glasheen-sempai was/has been kind enough to answer questions about this before, but I wanted to bring this up again and try to get a better understanding...
Mainly this is for my own selfishness, because having gone through many stages in my own physical, mental and spiritual development, one thing I won't ever do (again) is "take a beating" from anyone for any reason and just stand there... I'm trying to work through some decisions I'm contemplating and clarification of this information is crucial to that process.
In a different forum, Victor Smith posted about an article he wrote regarding Okinawa-te. In that article there was a section on Sanchin "checking", which caused me to post:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As posted by Panther:
... I have a question for Professor and the Uechi instructors, based on something in the article.
It's a "technical" question...
In the article there is a section on shime written by Morio Higaonna. The way shime is described in that section is how I was always "helped" in Sanchin. (For me, it wasn't called "testing", it wasn't done to "test", it was done for my benefit with lots of feedback, tips and pointers... we even called it "checking")
A while back in one of the forums, there was a thread on "Sanchin testing" and from reading that thread, I read a number of things that, well... just didn't "jive" for me. First off, was the rough "testing" attitude. Then there was the comments about striking (particularly the abdomen, back and back of the shoulders) using a closed fist. And finally (one of the main themes of the thread) the strikes towards the eyes.
I was always told that checking Sanchin should never be done with a closed fist and that agrees with the article. One of the reasons was the shock that could be done to the student...
Interestingly enough, I was told (just as Higaonna writes) not to ever let "just anyone" check my Sanchin. That many times someone might even know how to properly check, but would neglect to see if I was performing correctly enough on that given day... and that could be dangerous to me.
Strikes to the arms, legs, shoulders, etc. were all done with an open hand and were carefully executed in order to help me learn and improve. I would do my Sanchin strikes and the "check" was done by holding my fist and giving resistance. Legs were also meticulously checked with open hands and a few "check" kicks, but being rooted was checked by feeling around my feet and ankles to see if I was correctly "gripping" the floor. On testing my kime, there were never any "finger-flicks" or strikes towards the eyes...
From the thread on Uechi Sanchin testing, it sounds like there is quite a bit of striking with a closed fist to "test" a student in Sanchin, kicks to the thighs and calves are important without any checking of feet or ankles, and that any deviation from looking directly ahead with intense focus was a problem.
Perhaps I misunderstand or "just don't get it"... I think many of the roots are the same fundamentally from China, so any explanations on the differences are greatly appreciated. It was always stressed to me that the fist strikes and hard kicks were a definite no-no.
Just confused...
Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Professor Mattson replied:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As posted by Professor Mattson:
You are right Panther! The Uechi gang have gone a bit bonkers with their "testing". (As did I when I first returned to the U.S.)
I wish all our young bucks would read your article and learn how the masters used 'checking' to build confidence rather than egos.
It doesn't take much imagination to see how the process got out of control. There are dojo now that specialize in this dangerous practice and wear their blood clots as badges of honor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Before someone feeds me the line about "needing to learn to take a punch because of what happens on the street" (tm), I've been "tested on the street" and I know what it means to get hit and then some... and standing in Sanchin so someone can beat the cr@p out of you does not teach you to handle that situation... I'm just trying to get clarification and information so I can make some informed decisions.
Thanks...
-
JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
HI;
A very interesting and diverse topic.
My cross training area has been, for a decade or so, in Tai Chi. One benefit of that is a certain tendency to see the way people stand in Sanchin, or any stance in the Uechi Kata, through a different set of eyes.
Or even in several different ways.
The first 'different' way is inline with a phrase often used: "stand up straight grasshopper". There are several 'keys' or actual 'guide points' to standing up straight.
Hard to believe.
But that subject, perhaps, later.
The second basic set of eyes seems to direct on to the conclusion that, in line with what most here have said, is that Sanchin Stance is not a 'static' stance, but a dynamic one.
What does this mean. I now it was mentioned how to react to the 'eye flick' and "body punching", and, in essence, these must be reacted to in a dynamic way.
You can't ignore the stimuli, and you can't move either.
The ways suggested in the thread regarding "elastic" or "trampoline" reaction to the body punch testing seems pretty dern good.
I also note that one respondant 'did not want the testing to degenerate into pushing and shoving', that would be a bit unseemly, but a lot of Tai Chi training is based around this 'pushing and shoving'.
Like Kontikitai this training in conducted within the parameters of your partners ability.
Consider, if you are being pushed backward, as BIll noted, do you stand there in a 'static fashion' 'like a statue'?
No, for like the oak in the fable, you will be easily uprooted. You sort of defocus the forward leg and 'adjust' you body INTERNALLY to facilitate the flow of energy to the rear heel.
If pushed from behind, reverse the process and allow the force to flow to the "bubbling well point" (just abaft the sole of the foot).
These internal adjustments are a necessary training guide, to be sure, in that they are a step on the way towards understanding and controlling one's chi and body, if they are, in fact, separate.
Therefore it is recognized that abrupt and over forceful "pushing" will destabilize your partner and he will learn nothing.
Also, the utility of "pushing" to the weak directions of a stance is more difficult to learn from in that this direction requires the partner to step through.
JT
------------------
A very interesting and diverse topic.
My cross training area has been, for a decade or so, in Tai Chi. One benefit of that is a certain tendency to see the way people stand in Sanchin, or any stance in the Uechi Kata, through a different set of eyes.
Or even in several different ways.
The first 'different' way is inline with a phrase often used: "stand up straight grasshopper". There are several 'keys' or actual 'guide points' to standing up straight.
Hard to believe.
But that subject, perhaps, later.
The second basic set of eyes seems to direct on to the conclusion that, in line with what most here have said, is that Sanchin Stance is not a 'static' stance, but a dynamic one.
What does this mean. I now it was mentioned how to react to the 'eye flick' and "body punching", and, in essence, these must be reacted to in a dynamic way.
You can't ignore the stimuli, and you can't move either.
The ways suggested in the thread regarding "elastic" or "trampoline" reaction to the body punch testing seems pretty dern good.
I also note that one respondant 'did not want the testing to degenerate into pushing and shoving', that would be a bit unseemly, but a lot of Tai Chi training is based around this 'pushing and shoving'.
Like Kontikitai this training in conducted within the parameters of your partners ability.
Consider, if you are being pushed backward, as BIll noted, do you stand there in a 'static fashion' 'like a statue'?
No, for like the oak in the fable, you will be easily uprooted. You sort of defocus the forward leg and 'adjust' you body INTERNALLY to facilitate the flow of energy to the rear heel.
If pushed from behind, reverse the process and allow the force to flow to the "bubbling well point" (just abaft the sole of the foot).
These internal adjustments are a necessary training guide, to be sure, in that they are a step on the way towards understanding and controlling one's chi and body, if they are, in fact, separate.
Therefore it is recognized that abrupt and over forceful "pushing" will destabilize your partner and he will learn nothing.
Also, the utility of "pushing" to the weak directions of a stance is more difficult to learn from in that this direction requires the partner to step through.
JT
------------------
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Thanks Thurston-san...
However, it doesn't really answer my question(s).
I'd really like to hear from some of the Uechi-ryu sensei regarding what I perceive to be a propensity to do a "hard testing" of Sanchin.
For me, personally, I can't ever stand there and let anyone beat the crap out of me... It just doesn't make sense to me.
Given that, if I wanted to go and workout someplace where that was how (or seems how) they are regarding this "testing", what do the Uechi-ryu sensei suggest?
Should I forget about training there?
Should I tell the sensei that I don't/won't be "tested" in Sanchin in that fashion, that a helpful checking is OK, but I won't allow anyone to strike me with their fist while standing still?
Having read Professor Mattson's reply, I think (no, I'm sure) I would feel comfortable with Professor checking my Sanchin and helping me progress... But having read his reply, what do other Uechi-ryu sensei think about my position/concerns/thoughts?
Sorry if I'm just too much of a "wuss" for Uechi-ryu, but I'm just a little too damn old and "been there, done that, don't care to repeat the experience" (regarding injuries) to nurse hematomas, bruises, etc. resulting in (IMNSHO) unneeded punishment. I see unneeded health risks from it that I don't care to take... does this mean that Uechi-ryu as an art is unavailable to us "wusses"?
I'm trying not to start a new thread just to get this answered...
However, it doesn't really answer my question(s).
I'd really like to hear from some of the Uechi-ryu sensei regarding what I perceive to be a propensity to do a "hard testing" of Sanchin.
For me, personally, I can't ever stand there and let anyone beat the crap out of me... It just doesn't make sense to me.
Given that, if I wanted to go and workout someplace where that was how (or seems how) they are regarding this "testing", what do the Uechi-ryu sensei suggest?
Should I forget about training there?
Should I tell the sensei that I don't/won't be "tested" in Sanchin in that fashion, that a helpful checking is OK, but I won't allow anyone to strike me with their fist while standing still?
Having read Professor Mattson's reply, I think (no, I'm sure) I would feel comfortable with Professor checking my Sanchin and helping me progress... But having read his reply, what do other Uechi-ryu sensei think about my position/concerns/thoughts?
Sorry if I'm just too much of a "wuss" for Uechi-ryu, but I'm just a little too damn old and "been there, done that, don't care to repeat the experience" (regarding injuries) to nurse hematomas, bruises, etc. resulting in (IMNSHO) unneeded punishment. I see unneeded health risks from it that I don't care to take... does this mean that Uechi-ryu as an art is unavailable to us "wusses"?
I'm trying not to start a new thread just to get this answered...
Sanchin - Testing misconceptions
Panther- you wrote-'Personally, Ican't ever stand there and let anybody beat the crap out of me.'
Now on This we both agree!
I want an equal chance to do some damage.I find when this is so, none is offered except in kumite.And then very little.Usually not more than once.
The expression goes, 'Oops! Sorry!'
'That's OK. You'll get it back.'
If we gonna do macho games they ought to be Good Macho Games, right?
Kusanku
Now on This we both agree!
I want an equal chance to do some damage.I find when this is so, none is offered except in kumite.And then very little.Usually not more than once.
The expression goes, 'Oops! Sorry!'
'That's OK. You'll get it back.
'If we gonna do macho games they ought to be Good Macho Games, right?
Kusanku
