Thought this would be a good place for Mike's question
Dear Sensei Mattson,
Having recently opened a dojo in my area, the question has come to my mind regarding the internal and external aspects of Uechi style karate. From my understanding, Uechi Ryu is half of both -- half hard half soft -- half hard refering to the external aspects of self-defense (refering to one's masculinity?), half soft regarding the external, like Tai Chi, I suppose (correct me on any of this if I'm wrong, because I'm not really sure =). I gather this because Uechi ryu isn't as difficult to perform as, for example, a completely external style like Shotokan is, which would make Uechi ryu easier for the elderly to perform. Do you see any other external/internal aspects of Uechi-ryu that I haven't pointed out? I've just starting thinking about this latley because, when I went through the kyu ranks, I was taught the pre-arranged kumites, the forms, and the exercises, and that was about it. I've never really thought much about what my style was really about. And there is a lot to think about, as I am finnaly beginning to understand.
Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to give me on this,
Mike Vinoski, Shodan.
Internal/External Uechi
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
Internal/External Uechi
Maybe in the beginning, Uechi ryu appears to be not as difficult to perform as an external style such as Shotokan, but the more you get into Uechi-ryu, the more complex it becomes, until it starts to become simpler again.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Internal/External Uechi
This internal/external thing is such a messy issue. Sometimes when we talk about it, you get these Taiji Nazis coming out of their holes foaming that You cannot possibly understand..., as if they had the corner on the holy grail of something. And then you have the hard stylists that snicker because they know they do things better. Sigh... But then if we didn't talk about such things, we'd never cause any trouble. We can't have that, now, can we? 
I think the best way to view this - from the most general sense - is to look at the yin yang symbol. Instead of being two evenly-divided halves of a circle, it is like white and black paint put in a can that is beginning to swirl. Even with the first partial turn, you can no longer view the individual identities so easily in isolation. Sodium and chlorine suddenly become salt.
I think that one can view the contrasts - for lack of a better word - on many levels. For instance, some muscles in the body (forearms, lats, hip tuck) are kept tense, whereas others are kept relaxed. Some blocks in the system can be done effortlessly, whereas others (or even the same motions) can be thought of as attacks. Some breathing can be done in the most natural fashion, whereas other times it's appropriate to hiss like the dragon. Some aspects of the system require uncommon strength (like the shoken or sokusen), whereas others require superb finesse and unusually precise effortless effort.
I have studied both hard Japanese systems as well as practiced aikido and played with taiji. Uechi ryu is both and neither at the same time. But it can be thought of as either a very external or very internal system if you want to make it that way. This is the paradox that we deal with, and the identity of the style.
- Bill
I think the best way to view this - from the most general sense - is to look at the yin yang symbol. Instead of being two evenly-divided halves of a circle, it is like white and black paint put in a can that is beginning to swirl. Even with the first partial turn, you can no longer view the individual identities so easily in isolation. Sodium and chlorine suddenly become salt.
I think that one can view the contrasts - for lack of a better word - on many levels. For instance, some muscles in the body (forearms, lats, hip tuck) are kept tense, whereas others are kept relaxed. Some blocks in the system can be done effortlessly, whereas others (or even the same motions) can be thought of as attacks. Some breathing can be done in the most natural fashion, whereas other times it's appropriate to hiss like the dragon. Some aspects of the system require uncommon strength (like the shoken or sokusen), whereas others require superb finesse and unusually precise effortless effort.
I have studied both hard Japanese systems as well as practiced aikido and played with taiji. Uechi ryu is both and neither at the same time. But it can be thought of as either a very external or very internal system if you want to make it that way. This is the paradox that we deal with, and the identity of the style.
- Bill
Internal/External Uechi
Uechi may be "easier" in the sense that you're not thrashing around as powerfully as possible and in some other styles there are. But what is physically easier may be harder to master and do WELL. A choppy downblock punch high block kick kata can be done powerfully, sure, but in the end its harder to perfect that one that brings out fluidity and grace and timing. In my opinion. I've visited a site with dozens and dozens of Shotokan kata on video and realized how much more complex and how much deeper Uechi kata are even though there are so few (8, and to some, 3).
One reads in Mattson's text that Taiji starts soft but Uechi teaches students power through tension, but as they learn, they relax all the muscles that are hindering them, develop a softer sanchin in many cases, and arrive at a similar place: maximum force for minimum effort.
Other things I think about with yin-yang, hard-soft, and the three conflicts:
the covered fist of sanchin, symbolizing simultaneous power and control, force and discretion, unlimited destructive power and lack of malice... remember this?
Mr Miyagi: then why train?
D Laruso: So I don't have to fight.
Silly, but, control *through* power, and vice versa. This applies to combat ethics and common sense but also to power and precision/economy of motion.
One can also think of art for self, and art for self defense. I would do Uechi if I were the only person on earth and at zero risk of attack. I would also train just for self defense. Karate Do *and* Jutsu.
I think one objection is for students to develop their own ideas of what the conflicts are instead of having the memorization without understanding that comes when students blurt out, "mind body and spirit!" or, as some with goju experience have told me, "mind body and breathing!" Reminds me of the woman who ran up to the Dalai Lama during one seminar Q & A session and demanded, "what's the quickest path to enlightenment?!"
Learn by doing... if you remember that you don't know much, sometimes when you do Sanchin you are open enough and it talks to you.
One reads in Mattson's text that Taiji starts soft but Uechi teaches students power through tension, but as they learn, they relax all the muscles that are hindering them, develop a softer sanchin in many cases, and arrive at a similar place: maximum force for minimum effort.
Other things I think about with yin-yang, hard-soft, and the three conflicts:
the covered fist of sanchin, symbolizing simultaneous power and control, force and discretion, unlimited destructive power and lack of malice... remember this?
Mr Miyagi: then why train?
D Laruso: So I don't have to fight.
Silly, but, control *through* power, and vice versa. This applies to combat ethics and common sense but also to power and precision/economy of motion.
One can also think of art for self, and art for self defense. I would do Uechi if I were the only person on earth and at zero risk of attack. I would also train just for self defense. Karate Do *and* Jutsu.
I think one objection is for students to develop their own ideas of what the conflicts are instead of having the memorization without understanding that comes when students blurt out, "mind body and spirit!" or, as some with goju experience have told me, "mind body and breathing!" Reminds me of the woman who ran up to the Dalai Lama during one seminar Q & A session and demanded, "what's the quickest path to enlightenment?!"
Learn by doing... if you remember that you don't know much, sometimes when you do Sanchin you are open enough and it talks to you.
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
Internal/External Uechi
Hi:
As Bill Sensei Has, I have "played" with Tai Chi.(for 12 years, which points out that I am a slow learner) It is billed as an internal system and Tai chi practioners will uninformly maintain that theirs is an Internal system and Uechi is not. I do not agree with them, but my Sifu's eyes get fogged over when I discuss Uechi with him.
It is not expected that one at Shodan (a different type of beginner)or at Godan (a position where you learn how to be a beginner every day, and like it) that one will understand the internal aspects of Uechi.
As noted, Uechi can be taught with an emphasis on the internal (reputedly the focus of Toyama Sensei) or with external emphasis. Since the latter is the 'easiest' path, it sometimes obscures the other.
As mentioned, when practicing Uechi, part of the body remains 'tense' (perhaps focused might be a bit closer to the actuality) and parts "loose". In Tai Chi this is also the case, but it is certainly explained differently, if articulately.
By and large, in TaiJi, the upper body remains 'loose' but not flaccid, yet not quite 'focused' in the Uechi sense, but the TaiJi 'player' is supposed to develop movements that 'are totally aware'. The legs, however, are always focused and this focus is hidden to an observer.
It is supposed to be the art of moving effortlessly, but since the 'connections' to the Earth are kept (and therefore 'focused') there is plenty of energy being expended, perhaps even more when as it is practiced slowly.
Study of a "hard" system enhances your understanding of what Tai Chi is supposed to achieve and studying Tai Chi enhances your ability to understand why Uechi is the way it is and why it is 'half hard and half soft.
Speed is king, a key to speed is relaxation.
But when, and of what?.
In Sanchin, when practiced, even the apparently simple arm movement is complex in that for speed, (part) of) you must be relaxed, be driven from the ground connection thru the hip connection, and 'focused' or 'hard' at its starting and end (extended thrust) positions (albeit for a split second) to protect yourself from injury, to emphasize the 'penetration' aspect of the strike, to emphasize and show your(self) and the instructor present the accuracy of the strike, which then ties you to the Kyusho aspects of Uechi.
Not so simple.
So, is it simpler than Shotokan? Looks that way, but not so.
This is not apologetics. Uechi is deep. Sometimes it appears to me deeper that Tai Ji and as internal in that it cultivates chi flow, self awareness, body awareness, and the concept being here now in THIS movement as your are doing it.
Since the movement is 'succint' as Pantazi Sensei put it, it is amenable to study.
In Uechi/Sanchin the Chi circle at the Hara/Tan Tien points is clearly discernable, perhaps as a smaller circle than in Tai JI, but discernable.
The Tan Tien is not static, it moves. It can be controlled and moved. It moves in Sanchin and it's movement, or the energy flow around it are clear in Sanchin.
If you listen, you may hear it. If you are aware, you will feet it.
Sorry. Off on a tangent.
Does this help at all?
JT
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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 17, 2000).]
As Bill Sensei Has, I have "played" with Tai Chi.(for 12 years, which points out that I am a slow learner) It is billed as an internal system and Tai chi practioners will uninformly maintain that theirs is an Internal system and Uechi is not. I do not agree with them, but my Sifu's eyes get fogged over when I discuss Uechi with him.
It is not expected that one at Shodan (a different type of beginner)or at Godan (a position where you learn how to be a beginner every day, and like it) that one will understand the internal aspects of Uechi.
As noted, Uechi can be taught with an emphasis on the internal (reputedly the focus of Toyama Sensei) or with external emphasis. Since the latter is the 'easiest' path, it sometimes obscures the other.
As mentioned, when practicing Uechi, part of the body remains 'tense' (perhaps focused might be a bit closer to the actuality) and parts "loose". In Tai Chi this is also the case, but it is certainly explained differently, if articulately.
By and large, in TaiJi, the upper body remains 'loose' but not flaccid, yet not quite 'focused' in the Uechi sense, but the TaiJi 'player' is supposed to develop movements that 'are totally aware'. The legs, however, are always focused and this focus is hidden to an observer.
It is supposed to be the art of moving effortlessly, but since the 'connections' to the Earth are kept (and therefore 'focused') there is plenty of energy being expended, perhaps even more when as it is practiced slowly.
Study of a "hard" system enhances your understanding of what Tai Chi is supposed to achieve and studying Tai Chi enhances your ability to understand why Uechi is the way it is and why it is 'half hard and half soft.
Speed is king, a key to speed is relaxation.
But when, and of what?.
In Sanchin, when practiced, even the apparently simple arm movement is complex in that for speed, (part) of) you must be relaxed, be driven from the ground connection thru the hip connection, and 'focused' or 'hard' at its starting and end (extended thrust) positions (albeit for a split second) to protect yourself from injury, to emphasize the 'penetration' aspect of the strike, to emphasize and show your(self) and the instructor present the accuracy of the strike, which then ties you to the Kyusho aspects of Uechi.
Not so simple.
So, is it simpler than Shotokan? Looks that way, but not so.
This is not apologetics. Uechi is deep. Sometimes it appears to me deeper that Tai Ji and as internal in that it cultivates chi flow, self awareness, body awareness, and the concept being here now in THIS movement as your are doing it.
Since the movement is 'succint' as Pantazi Sensei put it, it is amenable to study.
In Uechi/Sanchin the Chi circle at the Hara/Tan Tien points is clearly discernable, perhaps as a smaller circle than in Tai JI, but discernable.
The Tan Tien is not static, it moves. It can be controlled and moved. It moves in Sanchin and it's movement, or the energy flow around it are clear in Sanchin.
If you listen, you may hear it. If you are aware, you will feet it.
Sorry. Off on a tangent.
Does this help at all?
JT
------------------
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 17, 2000).]
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Allen M.
Internal/External Uechi
I am dan-ranked in several hard styles, including Shotokan. Even in those styles, there are points of softness, such as when the practitioner chambers, or more globally, going between hard striking or blocking moves. Only in those MA styles, the soft often results in severe weaknesses of the system. I would say that is true because the "soft" aspect of their moves are not taught. The young Shotokanite may say "Why do I need softness. This is hard, this is good, this is macho!"
Soft helps hard and hard helps soft. I remember in my early days that I discovered doing Tai-chi helped Uechi sparring immensely. If only Tai-chi, I probably wouldn't be able to fight for squat. The very hard I once practiced helped the understanding and insight into Van's Uechi-ryu methods when I first went under his tutelage several years ago. Without a firm understanding of both the concepts and practice of both hardness and softness, it takes a long long time to be able to put it all together, even under the guidance of the most experienced of the experienced.
There is one style of Taekwondo that has a small part of Van's concepts down-pat. That is, they know how to twist the hips and raise up while chambering. Much else seems to be missing. If I was to take Van's teachings and apply them to that particular Art, the value of their poomse would increase tremendously. Problem though, it would be "wrong" in their style and would just NOT fit.
Those are merely SURFACE implementations of the hard-soft. To go a little deeper under the surface, one must realize that the movements of Uechi are so natural to the natural movements of the body itself, while many movements of kata of other styles are not.
But to be successful in going toward a complete Uechi-ryu understanding and ability, one must work on BOTH the hard and the soft and integrate them, concurrently, into daily practice.
My free noontime is up. I must now return to work.
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Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Soft helps hard and hard helps soft. I remember in my early days that I discovered doing Tai-chi helped Uechi sparring immensely. If only Tai-chi, I probably wouldn't be able to fight for squat. The very hard I once practiced helped the understanding and insight into Van's Uechi-ryu methods when I first went under his tutelage several years ago. Without a firm understanding of both the concepts and practice of both hardness and softness, it takes a long long time to be able to put it all together, even under the guidance of the most experienced of the experienced.
There is one style of Taekwondo that has a small part of Van's concepts down-pat. That is, they know how to twist the hips and raise up while chambering. Much else seems to be missing. If I was to take Van's teachings and apply them to that particular Art, the value of their poomse would increase tremendously. Problem though, it would be "wrong" in their style and would just NOT fit.
Those are merely SURFACE implementations of the hard-soft. To go a little deeper under the surface, one must realize that the movements of Uechi are so natural to the natural movements of the body itself, while many movements of kata of other styles are not.
But to be successful in going toward a complete Uechi-ryu understanding and ability, one must work on BOTH the hard and the soft and integrate them, concurrently, into daily practice.
My free noontime is up. I must now return to work.
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/pulse mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
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Joseph Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: MA, USA
Internal/External Uechi
Hi Mike,
Don't get hung up on the labels of internal/external. There was no term used as "internal" before circa 1916. The term internal was coined by a great martial artist named Sun Lu Tang in his text titled. "Bagua Quan Xue" (A study of eight trigrams boxing). His reference was clearly to show similarities between Bagua Zhang, Xing Yi Chuan and Tai Ji Chuan, as how they incorporated whole body movements to produce a very efficient effect on the opponent. According to what Sun Lu Tang classified as internal principles, any martial art, if done correctly can be classified as internal.
A lot of folks get hung up with the too often quoted, "the Yi (mind, intent) leads the Chi (body energy) that leads the Li (muscular force or output)" often isolating one of the three segments. This causes a lot of confusion and leads to bad information.
I'll be teaching at Gary Khoury's dojo on Wednesday nights starting in a couple of weeks and I'll be going over a lot of the misinterpretations and hopefully be cleaning up a lot of murky/mystical concepts that people often get sold on.
Good training,
Joe
Don't get hung up on the labels of internal/external. There was no term used as "internal" before circa 1916. The term internal was coined by a great martial artist named Sun Lu Tang in his text titled. "Bagua Quan Xue" (A study of eight trigrams boxing). His reference was clearly to show similarities between Bagua Zhang, Xing Yi Chuan and Tai Ji Chuan, as how they incorporated whole body movements to produce a very efficient effect on the opponent. According to what Sun Lu Tang classified as internal principles, any martial art, if done correctly can be classified as internal.
A lot of folks get hung up with the too often quoted, "the Yi (mind, intent) leads the Chi (body energy) that leads the Li (muscular force or output)" often isolating one of the three segments. This causes a lot of confusion and leads to bad information.
I'll be teaching at Gary Khoury's dojo on Wednesday nights starting in a couple of weeks and I'll be going over a lot of the misinterpretations and hopefully be cleaning up a lot of murky/mystical concepts that people often get sold on.
Good training,
Joe
