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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 1998 4:54 am 
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As David related that stabbing event in Chinatown , the speed of it , the savagery of it , I know that lots of you have had second thoughts about your martial arts efficacy in such an encounter !
Some of you might even be thinking of 'equalizers' again as David posted previously ! What comes to mind when we talk 'equalizers' ! Your choice today is either a knife or a handgun ! Do you really need one ? That depends on your level of commitment to your self defense ! If you have any sense at all , you should know by now that knowledge of martial arts is no panacea , and that you will probably fall prey to a determined attacker with or without a weapon [remember the previous posts on this ? why it is so ?]

Most of you will not carry a knife or a gun and so your ultimate success in a vicious fight is somewhat slim ! [ still don't believe it ! Right ?] Yeah , I know , the brainwashing power of senseis is immense ! Also most of you are afflicted with hoplophobia [ obsessive neurotic fears of weapons] ! And be honest with yourself . If you are a drugs/alcohol abuser , if you cannot control your temper , have an hostile personality and are subject to bouts of depression , then stay away from weapons of any kind !

But lets assume you cross that line into weapons land and decide to carry one and , my ..my , spend a few bucks and attend lethal force Institute to learn the complex legal, moral and ethical parameters that govern the use of deadly force in self defense ! Now comes the fun part >>> you pack the knife or gun ,BUT, are you really emotionally capable of dealing lethal injury to a violent criminal attacker?

Lets see ..you will be toe to toe , only feet away , your assailant is armed as well , possibly death for you both , you will have to shoot 'double tap' to have a chance at stopping him ..he will not turn and run after you hit him ..he will be coming for you ! Don't expect a clean shot , a one hit stop, there will be screaming , blood soaking , including your own blood , expect him to deflect from you into a nearby family member to kill him/her out vengeance for your shots

You will have a weapon and training and you will still find criminal assault a real paralyzing shock ! Remember that trained police officers hit suspects only once out of every four shots at three to nine feet ! Mas Ayoob says that if you are one of those people who will say " I could never take another human life under any circumstance " then forget about guns and knives ..and just take your chances ..accepting your fate when it is your time to die !

Remember this ..the armed assailant comes at you poised and hyper and ready to kill , whereas you will always react from a state of peace and have to work yourself up to "dropping the hammer" on your antagonist !

Van Canna


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 1998 6:06 am 
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Van-san,

Part of why I pay such close attention to your forum is the very subject of this thread. Notwithstanding the division between those who would carry a weapon, those who shouldn't and those who are still considering it - even when carrying one - the all important mindset of which you have written so much - is so critical! In my relative inexperience I know this to be fact...

About ten years ago I took a temporary second job delivering pizzas nights to pay some college expenses - I ended up visiting some unsavory neighborhoods, and this was on the heels of some Domino's delivery murders/muggings...and of course, guess who I was working for! So, I decided to start carrying. After some deliberation, budget considerations, and some talking with various "experts" I decided on an Iver Johnson .22 semiautomatic that fit nicely in my money bag - I figured that was as good a place as any to keep it! I also invested in a shoulder bag with a false middle seam and holster that I used to carry other places - which I did, on business to Atlanta - where, as luck would have it, in the underground one night - I was accosted by an enthusiastic pan-handler type who was pushing and working me backward into a side alley - I had my hand on the gun which was chambered already, flicked the safety off and before pulling it all the way out stood my ground and told him to get the hell away from me or he was going to be very seriously hurt - I was shaking so bad and my voice cracked but somehow he bought it and left! Then I really started shaking and couldn't trust myself to put the put the gun back without discharging the damn thing! Somehow I did but it really drove the point home that if I had really had to use it - I honestly cannot say if I would have been capable at that moment! I felt the "chemical cocktail" full force and KNOW how much I felt impaired by it... hopefully if the situation had seemed more lethal I would have been able to pull the trigger. I hope I won't ever have to find out but am working to develop the mindset necessary to do what it takes. Thanks for providing this forum as a means to that end.

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 1998 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
I'm with you guys that decide to carry weapons on the one hand, and then again, I'm not.
I understand the need to feel protected. I have promised myself that when I am a lot older (as in elderly), yes, I will probably carry something. I also plan to supplement my martial arts training with weapons training in the future (knife, gun, stick, btw, anyone know of any qualified knife teachers in the Washington DC area??).

I've found the best thing that has reduced my chances of being in really dangerous situations is awareness. I no longer hang out in areas where I KNOW a weapon would more likely be needed (face it people, we know which parts of town we should not be in, where for one reason or another, the residents may not like you.) I work in an office around rather rational people FOR THE MOST PART (there are a few loose cannons, but those folks are everywhere). I'd rather grab something and hit an attacker over the head with it than deal with the hassle of carrying a concealed weapon until I have real training with one and know all of the legal ramifications and so on. Besides, if you are "creative" (read sadistic) enough, there are all sorts of things around you that can be used as a weapon at work (ink pen, scissors, heavy stapler, telephone handler, edge of a picture frame---hey, I went to public high school, okay?) or outside (small club kept in the car, a rock, stick, lid of a trashcan, brick, your bag, umbrella, or cane, etc).

I will not take a job that I think will have me going into problem areas or dealing with problem people. Period. Perhaps if I get back in the music biz, I'll have to reconsider carrying, but for now, danger zones are out. I've even turned down offers to be a bouncer or do security, even though the warrior within me would love to have that experience to round out the formal MA training, in the name of safety. I refuse to have a job that will have me logging in a lot of late night hours. That is just asking for trouble, even for a big dude like me. If I can't make it on my day job's income, then I just will have to do without.
Any aquaintances I've made that I think would drag me into trouble are no longer in my phonebook, especially since I've become a parent.

Back to my point; I am a big advocate of avoidance. We cannot avoid every possible confrontation, but we can avoid most of them.


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 1998 11:59 pm 
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Equalizers

The knife : silent , never jams, no need to reload , no ballistic residue left behind , can be used as a one or two dimensional weapon i.e., deep penetration or slashing along the plane of the blade destroying everything in its sweeping path , also the power factor of the blade can be changed at the user's discretion [ LFI] >>

The gun: It usually scares bad guys more than knifes or Dobermans , mace or anything else because it is superior on the hierarchy of weapons , and usually -but not always -allows the would be victim to control the confrontation and bring about a safe ending without a fight ! Pulling a knife or baseball bat to your opponent's knife will be perceived as a challenge of equal weapons compounded by the pressure of the assailant's peers to carry on the fight !

BUT the gun only works if you can project the message to your opponent that you will use it on him ….easier said than done ! Your opponent has made up his mind to kill you when you are facing his knife …you better believe this …don't hope to talk your way out of it ! He is committed , and he can smell your fears as keenly as a dog , he will recognize the fear in your body language and in your voice . IF he senses that ,by your actions you will not pull the trigger , he will lunge , stab you , possibly take the gun away from you and shoot you with it ! If in your household , such as a home invasion, he'll also murder your wife and children , to eliminate all possible witnesses ! [LFI]

Now do you understand what is necessary in proper mindset before you can even think about carrying equalizers? For that matter , what mindset is necessary to even think in terms of deploying karate techniques , lest you perform half ass and draw the murderous rage of your assailant ??

Van Canna


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 1998 2:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
>>Now do you understand what is necessary in proper mindset before you can even think about carrying equalizers? For that matter , what mindset is necessary to even think in terms of deploying karate techniques , lest
you perform half ass and draw the murderous rage of your assailant ??<<

To borrow the title of a book, "Take 'em down! Take 'em out!" If you decide to "go at it", that's the only attitude to have. However, take 'em out doesn't have to end in death, though it may well mean that. But the threat must be neutralized...

david


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 1998 7:42 pm 
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Location: Tampa, FL, US
>The gun: It usually scares bad guys more than knifes or Dobermans , mace or anything else >>
>and usually -but not always -allows the would be victim to control the confrontation and bring about a safe ending without a fight ! >>

>Pulling a knife or baseball bat to your opponent's knife will be perceived as a challenge of equal weapons compounded by the pressure of the assailant's peers to carry on the fight>>

>BUT the gun only works if you can project the message to your opponent that you will use it on him ….easier said than done ! Your opponent has made up his mind to kill you when you are facing his knife …you better believe this …don't hope to talk your way out of it ! He is committed , and he can smell your fears as keenly as a dog , he will recognize the fear in your body language and in your voice . IF he senses that ,by your actions you will not pull the trigger , he will lunge , stab you , possibly take the gun away from you and shoot you with it ! If in your household , such as a home invasion, he'll also murder your wife and children , to eliminate all possible witnesses ! >>

I admite I am new here and should due some more prerequsite lurking, but I have to strongly disagree on two points.

Firstly, there are some extreme assumptions made about the assailent. While a truely murderous, determined is a definate possability, it is not always true. Criminals typicaly are opportunists, the kind of people who avoid the work load of goaing after someone who will put up a defense. Some may even (being human) have no intention/desire to kill and the same hesitations as you or I.

Secondly, I disagree strongly with the precept of pulling out a knife or a gun and waving it around to threaten. This is dangerous and ill-advised. If a situation is at a point a weapon should be used, it should not be tossed about first. If the assalent is hitting you, and you pull a gun, and he has a gun, he has an opportunity to draw agains you. If you are to pull a weapon is should be used immediately. Under ideal usage the victim (attacker) should not even suspect you have a weapon until it discharges into him (or cuts).

There is some room to argue the use of a shine (non-subtle) knife in combat for it's ability to unnerve some opponents, but that is diffent from saying "Here, I have a gun, take it from me now".

Gerald Love


[This message has been edited by tensin (edited 10-30-98).]


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 1998 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Good Morning Tensin,

Please do the 'prerequisite luking'. Reread
Mr. Canna's post. I think you might have
misinterprepted what Mr. C was saying.

thank you


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 1998 7:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 9
Location: Tampa, FL, US
T ROSE> Good Morning Tensin,

Good afternoon

T ROSE> Please do the 'prerequisite luking'. Reread Mr. Canna's post. I think you might have misinterprepted what Mr. C was saying.

I wish you had been more specific as to what you feel I am misinterpreting.

V.CANNA> BUT the gun only works if you can project the message to your opponent that you will use it on him ….easier said than done

Here is my point of diagreement. A gun works if you fire it into another person. It's kinda like the old saying "Red lights don't stop cars, brakes do". Mr.Canna seems to support my sentiment with his statement...

V.CANNA>Your opponent has made up his mind to kill you when you are facing his knife …you better believe this …don't hope to talk your way out of it ! He is committed , and he can smell your fears as keenly as a dog , he will recognize the fear in your body language and in your voice .

Reason, if ever I heard it, to shoot. I still firmly believe that a gun is not well used as an item of intimidation. It is designed to kill people. Mr.Canna also says

V.CANNA>Now do you understand what is necessary in proper mindset before you can even think about carrying equalizers? For that matter , what mindset is necessary to even think in terms of deploying karate techniques , lest you perform half ass and draw the murderous rage of your assailant ??

Again, I feel this supports my statemnt (fire the gun) more than his (make sure your opponent believes you will fire the gun). If my life is in danger I will kill my attacker (I hope). If my life is not in dager I will run very fast away. I don't think that there is or should be a middle ground (I know any of us could come up with some odd situation involving a 12-year-old or someone's mom, but lets avoid that).

Sincerely, Gerald


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 1998 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 22
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Dear Gerald,
I think the main thrust of this thread is being prepared for the realities of weapons attacks. As a beginner I was taught to never underestimate my attacker, whether in the dojo or on the street. Fostereing of this attitude necessarily requires that we realise that out there we could very well be confronted with situations where we have to defend against or use a weapon. I agree that we should not carry a gun if we are not prepared to use it, however there will be situations where confidently pointing a gun at your opponent will certainly equalize the situation and perhaps deter an attack. I don't believe Van Canna San ever advocating 'waving' a gun arround. Perhaps this is where the comment about misinterpreting his comments came from. I have to admit I had the same feeling when I read your response.
Thanks for your time.

Melanie


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 Post subject: Kill or be Killed
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 1998 7:30 pm 
Hello Tensen.

Hello Tensen.

You are definitely right when you say

“extreme assumptions made about the assailent.”

I say you have to size him up instantly, ….

As you continue “Firstly, there are some While a truely murderous, determined is a definate possability, it is not always true. Criminals typicaly are opportunists, the kind of people who avoid the work load of goaing after someone who will put up a defense. Some may even (being human) have no intention/desire to kill and the same hesitations as you or I.”

So I finish my sentence with …and think the worst then immediately do what must be done to defend your own life without wasting time to deciphering intentions; there are no second chances where 20/20 hindsight is worthless.

Allen


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